Crushing blow, Attract, Static Field... Should be back?

General Discussion
02/08/2019 11:28 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Because for better or worse, D3 is heavily structured around that multiplicative damage scaling, whereas those games where this works are not. Thing is, at this point suggesting to bring pre-alpha features is like requesting to completely overhaul the game, whoch is not likely to happen in maintenance mode. Maybe for the next Diablo game, but the systems need to be implemented in a cohesive way at a core level to function properly. You can't suggest "just bring back pre-alpha skill trees and a stat squish" and expect to be taken seriously here, because of how unlikely such a scenario is.


Yes, this why the first thing that i've said on this thread is that this should't come back on D3. Only on a next diablo. And i agree that D3 will not receive the pre alfa things back... Not saying that the pre alfas trees are that good. Are very wow-like, but is better than nothing.

02/09/2019 05:35 AMPosted by Orrion
That’s because OHK spells usually don’t work on bosses or boss-equivalents, or they’re so conditional that using them is a pain in the !@# anyway.

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They work, but usually bosses have high chance of resisting it. An Adult red dragon on NWN has 18 fortitude, that means that an Finger of Death, if your Finger of Death has an DC of 24 for eg, the dragon will gonna resist 70% of your FoD.
02/08/2019 11:57 PMPosted by naksiloth
D3 being built on inflated multipliers doesn't mean restrictions can not be made to balance gameplay elements or have no space to do so. Just development team is lazy, don't care or lack imagination. Asking for free space to develop our own builds would be an insult to their "controlled environment".
D3 or next Diablo doesn't have to be an exact replicate of other games to include a large variety of game mechanics.

It's been that way since RoS was released. The heavy reliance on sets exemplifies this. They've been looking to control the way people play for years now, and I don't expect that to change, at least not for this game. All I'm saying here is it's too late for D3 to have any major overhauls, whether we like it or not. I'm personally at least satisfied they're aiming to at least make available sets more viable against eachother, although I don't expect that balancing to ever be perfect just based on the sheer amount of variables at play here.

Not saying that the pre alfas trees are that good. Are very wow-like, but is better than nothing.

Are they, though? WoW's skill trees were in all honesty, pretty damn lackluster, and outright incompatible with the type of game WoW is. There's a good reason builds were pretty rigid when they were available. When you're trying to optimize to fulfill specific roles with only minor situational variations, the "choice" you get from skill trees gets completely trivialized, which is why I think they changed the system for what it is now.

Oddly enough, those trees could've been more suitable for a game like Diablo, but even then, we still see the inevitable rise of specific meta builds, because such is the nature of a system with so many variables.

When you start to gravitate towards scenarios where optimization becomes increasingly more important just to complete a GR, for instance, any amount of choice and diversity gets progressively eroded. This is one of the reasons why I strongly disagree with bolting more torment levels to the game, for instance. The fact some builds steamroll that difficulty doesn't mean others will as well, and the fact the difficulty plateaus at a relatively low level means more builds are able to exist there without the player being pushed to meta builds like it happens in high GRs. T13 is a place where you can quite literally try anything that makes sense, and succeed. It's actually interesting to see what unconventional builds people can come up with at that point. There's a certain satisfaction coming from being able to course through "the highest difficulty" with a custom build, which, I fully acknowledge, is just a matter of overall perception. A perception that would be shattered if more torment levels were to be implemented, mind you.
02/09/2019 08:33 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
s. There's a good reason builds were pretty rigid when they were available. When you're trying to optimize to fulfill specific roles with only minor situational variations, the "choice" you get from skill trees gets completely trivialized


I agree that vanilla wow trees are very lackluster if compared with any other game with it that i've played. But the solution is make character choices more important, not less important.

The lack of choices is an reason to make more things viable, not to make everyone of the same class clones wearing different cloths is not a good thing. But yes, thanks to console market, and """RPG's""" that doesn't even have anything that resembles an "character sheet" and FPS games have weapons without recoil, corridor CQB maps, aim assist, etc... Now FPS games are slot machines where if you had lucky to spawn behind the enemy you win and rpgs are adventures

02/09/2019 08:33 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
uitable for a game like Diablo, but even then, we still see the inevitable rise of specific meta builds, because such is the nature of a system with so many variables.


The difference is that if you don't follow an "meta" build, you still can do baal rusn on D2 for eg. You will not deal less than 0,1% of an meta build damage.

02/09/2019 08:33 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
The fact some builds steamroll that difficulty doesn't mean others will as well


So, you agree that D3 is very unbalanced?

Pick D2, imagine if all classes has only one skill level and all skills are just like barb, all builds AOE DPS and every build gears in the same way. And there are no character attributes, D2 will not be insanely easy balanced? Yes, but will be an awful game. D3 managed to be an awful game and more unbalanced than D2.
I very much enjoyed CB and DS in classic d2 hc ww duels ;)
02/10/2019 08:13 AMPosted by SuperduperJW
I very much enjoyed CB and DS in classic d2 hc ww duels ;)


Only i think that classic D2 is better than LOD?
02/09/2019 05:58 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
02/09/2019 08:33 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
s. There's a good reason builds were pretty rigid when they were available. When you're trying to optimize to fulfill specific roles with only minor situational variations, the "choice" you get from skill trees gets completely trivialized


I agree that vanilla wow trees are very lackluster if compared with any other game with it that i've played. But the solution is make character choices more important, not less important.

The lack of choices is an reason to make more things viable, not to make everyone of the same class clones wearing different cloths is not a good thing. But yes, thanks to console market, and """RPG's""" that doesn't even have anything that resembles an "character sheet" and FPS games have weapons without recoil, corridor CQB maps, aim assist, etc... Now FPS games are slot machines where if you had lucky to spawn behind the enemy you win and rpgs are adventures

02/09/2019 08:33 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
uitable for a game like Diablo, but even then, we still see the inevitable rise of specific meta builds, because such is the nature of a system with so many variables.


The difference is that if you don't follow an "meta" build, you still can do baal rusn on D2 for eg. You will not deal less than 0,1% of an meta build damage.

02/09/2019 08:33 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
The fact some builds steamroll that difficulty doesn't mean others will as well


So, you agree that D3 is very unbalanced?

Pick D2, imagine if all classes has only one skill level and all skills are just like barb, all builds AOE DPS and every build gears in the same way. And there are no character attributes, D2 will not be insanely easy balanced? Yes, but will be an awful game. D3 managed to be an awful game and more unbalanced than D2.


The biggest reason D3 is unbalanced is because of infinite scaling and the stupidity of constantly and continually power creeping (or power leaping, more accurately) set and some legendary bonuses.

Look at this Season - we’ve got set bonuses with 15,000% and 20,000% modifiers. It’s beyond dumb.
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The biggest reason D3 is unbalanced is because of infinite scaling and the stupidity of constantly and continually power creeping (or power leaping, more accurately) set and some legendary bonuses.

Look at this Season - we’ve got set bonuses with 15,000% and 20,000% modifiers. It’s beyond dumb.


Infinite progression with a lot of multipliers is awful. If was an more "linear" progression with diminishing returns, maybe an near infinite progression can work better
02/11/2019 08:44 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
infinite progression can work better


Infinite progression only works with power creep. This overly incentivizes time spent and eventually the inflation of rewards makes everything done previously a massive waste of time. If the next game devalues a players time over the life of the game like D3 did, It will fail.
02/11/2019 09:16 PMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
Infinite progression only works with power creep. This overly incentivizes time spent and eventually the inflation of rewards makes everything done previously a massive waste of time. If the next game devalues a players time over the life of the game like D3 did, It will fail.

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Again mentioning Dark Souls, probably one of the best "mainstream famous" rpg. Once you complete the game, you go to NG+, most starting enemies receive a insane buff to be a challenge to a lv 70 char. I honestly believe that put fully armored enemies with different eqquipment and faster moveset is better than just inflate hp/dam, but people play NG+, NG++, until NG+7, is a near infinite progression since according to how long to beat, the game lasts 50 hours.

But there are diminishing returns. What i mean by that? An sorc with logan catalyst and 40 INT will have 209 Magic Adj, if he spends more 10 levels on INT, with 50 INT will have 236 Mag Adj. More 10 levels and he will have 239 Mag Adj( https://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/Int-Faith+Catalyst+Magic+Adjustment+Values )

The same happens to weapons, most melee weapons have an softcap of 40 STR/DEX.

This is completely different than Diablo where one build capable of clearing GR 50 is hundreds of times "stronger" than a GR 40 build. Talking about gearing, an ring who costs 20k souls who is the best sorc improving ring bosts your magic damage output by around 20%. On Diablo III, there are sets giving 20.000% more damage.

This remembers me of Dragon ball. When power levels was introduced, someone with over nine thousand was very strong. One saga later and someone with 150 000 000 power level appeared. And this guy is just 0,01% of Majin's Buu in power level... Numbers are too inflated to represent the character.
02/12/2019 12:30 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I honestly believe that put fully armored enemies with different eqquipment and faster moveset is better than just inflate hp/dam, but people play NG+, NG++, until NG+7


Never played Dark Souls but these sound like difficulty settings that have caps and are set within the restrictions of the base game. Meaning they don’t have to buff character damage to make it even possible. Doesn’t sound like power creep just a hard mode that is extremely difficult but possible using the same tools available in the game.
02/12/2019 05:19 AMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
02/12/2019 12:30 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I honestly believe that put fully armored enemies with different eqquipment and faster moveset is better than just inflate hp/dam, but people play NG+, NG++, until NG+7


Never played Dark Souls but these sound like difficulty settings that have caps and are set within the restrictions of the base game. Meaning they don’t have to buff character damage to make it even possible. Doesn’t sound like power creep just a hard mode that is extremely difficult but possible using the same tools available in the game.


NG+ is actually very hard on Dark Souls, They was made to be enjoyed by a lv 80+ player. The dragon on the bridge? Can OHK me. Most enemies can take at least half of my hp with an single attack but unfortunately is not like DkS 2 where you can gain specific items and the game trows much more hard enemies. The Lost Sinner for eg will summon two Dark spirit Pyromancers when reduced to about 60% health, there are a lot of chances that makes NG+ insanely hard ( https://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/New+Game+Plus )

I honestly believe that Diablo should aim to make higher difficulty more than just HP/Damage inflation.

D2 is not perfect in this regards, but enemies have much more resistances, more uniques spawn, more modifiers, etc;
02/06/2019 11:07 PMPosted by KushiSensei
there are a lot of things that i hope they'll take from D&D and PF and add to the next game. basically - combine the best elements from D2 and D3 and make something interesting to play and experience.


hmm i wonder what those best elements from d3 are....auto gold pickup and animations i guess?
02/13/2019 03:00 PMPosted by Wottsefack
02/06/2019 11:07 PMPosted by KushiSensei
there are a lot of things that i hope they'll take from D&D and PF and add to the next game. basically - combine the best elements from D2 and D3 and make something interesting to play and experience.


hmm i wonder what those best elements from d3 are....auto gold pickup and animations i guess?


To be fair, the moving skills are good.

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