Diablo 4 and Diablo 3 --- Lessons Learned

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Here is a great article that illustrates D3's catastrophic flaws.

10 things that need to be fixed so D4 has a chance to be good in the eyes of long term Diablo Enthusiasts. We the fans of Diablo 1 and 2 are biased because we know how good DIABLO really is, but D3's designers did not have this deep knowledge and passion for Diablo. This needs to change.

http://whatculture.com/gaming/diablo-4-10-huge-things-it-must-fix-from-iii
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

Make it like d2 and add auction house

Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.
03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

Make it like d2 and add auction house

Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


Diablo 3 is the definition of devolution. It bares no resemblance a proper arpg. It has zero atmosphere and depth. It's hilarious how dumbed down it is.
03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

Make it like d2 and add auction house

Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


You should learn to read first, before you start writing.

No matter how strong the temptation might be to re-introduce the Auction House (because Blizzard must've made a hefty profit off of that part of the game), it should never, ever be done again.


Despite the AH failure, trading should and must come back, but it must be Item-For-Item. Players must farm items so they can offer items for other items. No more Real Money involvement.
03/06/2019 05:36 AMPosted by SuperduperJW
Diablo 3 is the definition of devolution. It bares no resemblance a proper arpg. It has zero atmosphere and depth. It's hilarious how dumbed down it is.


(Sitting on rocking chair) "Back in my day......."
Synergies? Synergies are not good. LOL, I agree with everything else though.
Half of that list is irrelevant woes and it's published in '15. People loved the difficulty of vanilla D3 whatever you may think, Blizzard controlled AH is not possible anymore and offline mode is out of question.

Although I see points about oversimplified equipment, poor story telling and weak contrast to pale mature rated scenes at the environment. Disney tier villains and Nephalem getting blinded by greed are not good story telling that took effort, just gimmickry.
If you want trading and synergies, it's up to developers to work it out. AH wouldn't work anymore with recent changes to tax laws on digital and synergies should work different than D2, now skills have no scaling and stumped on Action Bar only.

Also hoping they imitate D2 on D4 is just being clueless and hopeful. They will learn something from D:I then apply that to D4 if it EVER exists. D3 and D2 are out of the scheme right now. I doubt the author would even bother to write all those points after D:I announce. It's obvious what path they gonna take.
03/06/2019 08:37 AMPosted by naksiloth
Half of that list is irrelevant woes and it's published in '15. People loved the difficulty of vanilla D3 whatever you may think, Blizzard controlled AH is not possible anymore and offline mode is out of question.


Because this article is from 2015, it is old news and why bring it up again?

We all loved Vanilla D3 when it was released.
I made friends that last to today from public runs back then.

Correct in that the AH is not possible.
The AH was a train wreck from the moment it began.

Offline mode you say? Never going to happen again.
Diablo II was/is a great game and lessons learned from having offline mode.
03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

...
Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


You should learn to read first, before you start writing.


That’s ironic since you don’t write well at all Mr. “True Diablo Enthusiast.”

No matter how strong the temptation might be to re-introduce the Auction House (because Blizzard must've made a hefty profit off of that part of the game), it should never, ever be done again.


Despite the AH failure, trading should and must come back, but it must be Item-For-Item. Players must farm items so they can offer items for other items. No more Real Money involvement.


Trading doesn’t need to come back, unless it’s similar to D3 where it actually encourages grouping (or would, if drop rates hadn’t been made so high).

Trading revolves around finding items you don’t want and trading them for items you do want. It’s unnecessary when you can just have a system that allows you to find items you want.
03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

...
Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


Diablo 3 is the definition of devolution. It bares no resemblance a proper arpg. It has zero atmosphere and depth. It's hilarious how dumbed down it is.


Granted.

However, there is also no need for absurdities. TopC up there has talked before about things like a decade long loot hunt or exponential experience increases to the point where getting max level takes years..

Games simply aren’t and shouldn’t be developed with those things in mind. The average RPG holds maybe a few hundred hours of things to do. Of course you can play it again later and do different things, a different class, etc. But games aren’t structured for people to play them nigh-exclusively for decades.
Well, crap, I was off about half a day on when the next TC spam topic would arrive.
03/06/2019 10:47 AMPosted by Saidosha
Well, crap, I was off about half a day on when the next TC spam topic would arrive.


Who reads what culture anyways? They are maybe a tiny step up from buzz feed. Maybe.
03/06/2019 05:47 AMPosted by Dietrich
03/06/2019 05:36 AMPosted by SuperduperJW
Diablo 3 is the definition of devolution. It bares no resemblance a proper arpg. It has zero atmosphere and depth. It's hilarious how dumbed down it is.


(Sitting on rocking chair) "Back in my day......."


New age gamer trying to claim that D3 somehow moved the franchise forward when it offered less options and activities than D2 did. My favorite part of D3 was how they scammed everyone into buying an expansion pack just to get the "Adventure Mode" that came standard with D2. Such awesome innovation there!

What a joke...

Oh please Blizzard, make D4 even MORE dumbed-down than D3 was. I hope D4 has a BOT MODE where the game plays itself like Clicker Heroes. That would really get the New Age Gamer's juices flowing! Lol!
03/06/2019 12:56 PMPosted by Tetra
Oh please Blizzard, make D4 even MORE dumbed-down than D3 was. I hope D4 has a BOT MODE where the game plays itself like Clicker Heroes. That would really get the New Age Gamer's juices flowing! Lol!


That's what we're gonna get.
03/06/2019 12:56 PMPosted by Tetra
where the game plays itself like Clicker Heroes.


If Activision buys Clicker Heroes to ditch next Diablo I wouldn't get even surprised. In the slightest. Also possible that D:I, at least China release will have auto-play to some degree. When interviewed, Allen Adham said no plans about it, but all Chinese aRPGs have it by now.

03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways


Flawed by the terms of QoL but still relevant to this day despite being released 18-19 years ago. D2 was about the "journey" feeling with a tight knit public community, while D3 went the other way and emphasized "destination" with known friends.

Both games have their own merits, target audience and followed different design staples. You can blame directors and designers for evading confrontation with D2 and leaning towards D1 at the design and action.

To me, cutting away the element of public community and competitiveness (PvP, trade) was a big mistake. That stick with us and it was good until you realize one of your friends croaked and real life gets to them. Number bloating and filtered choices for the sake of "accessibility" was another of the core flaws that haunts the D3 as well.
Trade was open to abuse so we had slot machines in town; now it couldn't even work even if it's implemented without removing such key features. Also people just flip out the moment they hear the word "PvP", not realizing PK and PvP are different terms and they get PTSD vibes from anything competitive.

Such mistakes and lack of depth only ensured game suffering a quicker death than D2, failing to stay relevant at the oncoming years lacking a sustainable gameplay model and dissing out the human element.
D3 would die for the player the moment their friends quit it, but D2 built the interaction on public relations which stood to the test of time. They cater to the different audiences yet I doubt calling D2 a "devolve" would be right.

Would they choose D2 as their next Diablo model? I have serious doubts.
D:I will be consumer based and will be watered down even further to push market forward only. Next D4, if it ever exists will be built upon Diablo Immortal, not D3 or D2. They're working for mass appeal and people playing with their friends only in a co-op. They have the statistics and that's the next best thing right now.
Oh goodie. Yet another "Make D4 like D2!" thread from TopCommander....

03/06/2019 06:33 AMPosted by UngivenFame
Synergies? Synergies are not good. LOL, I agree with everything else though.

They were actually cool if you took the time to go through the game on your own. It made the leveling process a whole lot more rewarding without having to save points to drop into the skill you actually were planning to base your build on. I actually appreciated that aspect of this feature, although 95%+ of the playerbase just got rushed past everything and leeched baal runs lol.

However, they were just a barely adequate bandaid for a blatantly flawed skill system by turning useless skills into glorified passives. They rendered builds pretty damn rigid in the end, so yeah, they weren't all that compelling.
03/06/2019 03:03 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Oh goodie. Yet another "Make D4 like D2!" thread from TopCommander....


Date of that article should've give him a hint about how outdated his views are.
03/06/2019 03:03 PMPosted by Blashyrkh

They were actually cool if you took the time to go through the game on your own. It made the leveling process a whole lot more rewarding without having to save points to drop into the skill you actually were planning to base your build on. I actually appreciated that aspect of this feature, although 95%+ of the playerbase just got rushed past everything and leeched baal runs lol.

However, they were just a barely adequate bandaid for a blatantly flawed skill system by turning useless skills into glorified passives. They rendered builds pretty damn rigid in the end, so yeah, they weren't all that compelling.
I went through the game on my own almost all the time. I played bnet back in the day just for the benefit of transferring gear and maybe getting a ladder only runeword. Synergies were NOT cool. It took 80 (or 60 or 40) skill points instead of 20 to make it good and thus the game became mainly about spamming one skill for damage which is something I hoped to get away from in D3. Part of the problem was the idea of skill prerequisites and them not scaling well into endgame. A better soultion is to scale the skill different so that it remains relevant late game but you cannot make it at level twenty where is outscales a level 20 skill at one point. You just can't have that where you can put a point in every level and have level one skills maxed before you unlock level thirty skill and have them balanced at end game. Even synergies didn't quite fix the problem because high level skills still outperformed lower level skills and low level skills are used just in the meantime and to boost via synergy the higher level skills.

Got to have a system that forces you to spread skill points around into a few different skills. Its better skill progression, makes all skills relevant and helps facilitate combat 'situational combat' where one skill has advantage over another.
10. Oversimplified Equipment Mechanics

I strongly agree. Only weapon damage matters, doesn't matter if you wanna increase your punch or golem damage. On D2 gear has DOZENS of different affixes. About requirements, i strongly agree too. Unless you invested heavily on STR, you should't be able to use an very heavy warbow. And remember, attributes should measure your character capabilities, not be just an number without meaning.

9. The Lack Of Spell Synergies

I don't think that is a necessity but i loved the idea. You become better at trowing firebolt, makes sense that similar fire skill will become better too.

8 - No opinion

7 - Strongly agree. No more children-movie like villains. No more ponies, no more butterflies killing iconic characters

6 - No opinion.

5. The Music Was Nowhere Near As Good As In Previous Games - Strongly agree

4. No More Map Randomization - Strongly agree.

3. Bring Back The Dark Graphics And Atmosphere - Strongly agree.

2. The Auction House - In game action house is fine. Real money not. Just my opinion.

1. Constant Internet Connection Required - Strongly agree. It kills the modding community. Maintain an online DRM is ok, but offline mod should be possible.

03/06/2019 06:33 AMPosted by UngivenFame
Synergies? Synergies are not good. LOL, I agree with everything else though.


Synergies are good. Not well implemented on all classes, but looks to Druid for eg, an class designed after synergies was introduced, not like other classes. Makes sense that an druid that becomes better at manipuling fire, becomes better at fireclaw.

And in pure elemental tree, it adds an layer of choice. For example, invest in cyclone armor increases the duration of hurricane. On Twister/Tornado, increases the damage.

------------------------

About skill, i wold love to see an skill level =1 meaning barely learned the skill, skill level at 10 = decent and at 20 = mastered like D2 but think that +skill level gear should receive diminishing returns. Any skill above 20 sbould require 3 skill points in order to advance an single level. It will reduces the power creep present on D2.

03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


Restore things that was cutted by no reason is not "devolve". I prefer call it "restore the former glory". In fact, is hard to think ways to devolve/dumb down D3 further...

PS : Read the post about AH.

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