Diablo 4 and Diablo 3 --- Lessons Learned

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03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
Why would you want to willingly delay your reward?


Better than hitting a dead end faster. Getting upgrades at a snail's pace at endgame doesn't make it any better either. After a while loothunt abruptly ends, because D3 item progress is linear and disdain any sort of sustainable model. D3 followed an over abundant drop rate because gear progress is only moving forward due to ever growing difficulty scale.

If difficulty scale could be sophisticated in a way, we'd see a lower drop rate and perhaps a better thought out itemization besides creating power gaps. If you give such oversaturation and drop rate to any aRPG game with 4-5 difficulty scale, gameplay would become pointless in a matter of days.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
So I never understand when people go "yeah, trading with some guy you've never seen before and you'll never see again" promotes more interaction than one where interaction is actually required.


I think that's a fallacy. You're talking about an "exchange" rate that happen spontaneously without any sort of currency involved and praise it; despite "trades" are planned beforehand and it has currency as well as an object exchange. That's the difference.

You don't have to add or keep playing with someone specific to get items you want in D3. It's totally random as much as hitting D2/PoE free trade at non-prime hours. Forcing players to stick together only causes "exchange", not a real "trade".
You don't have to see any community member after they power leveled you up to lvl70 in Seasons either. Someone dropped you a primal or high tier unique in any Diablo game? You don't have to see them again. What kinda "interaction" you're imagining when there's no element of haggling or planning but simply clicking away at a screen together?

Next step, you'll tell me it's not about D2 or D3 but that's what I read. You're talking some utopic system so vaguely, we can not pinpoint what are you even talking about. However still the system you want can be kept for the sake of exchanges and free trade can have huge restrictions to work, just to slow down botters.

03/08/2019 11:32 PMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
The problems are item flipping and RMT.


Item flipping can be slowed down to a degree. RMT is something you can not prevent when you go free trade system. There are lots of ways of paying someone digitally. You need lots of restrictions or will to kill the game's popularity by yourself.
03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

Make it like d2 and add auction house

Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


Don’t waste your time with the Diablo franchise. D2 was a great game 20 years because there wasn’t much like it. Since then there are tons of D2 clones some good some crap. D3 was such a change from d2 that it was never going to live up to the hype thus it failed. Now there are too many choices that Diablo falls into the mix as a tired series and other games do the skills/skill tree/ constellations/ theory crafting sooo much better. D4 won’t stand a chance at this point they’d be better off making a god of war’ish type Diablo 4. It will still be crap that i wouldn’t buy but the devs at blizzard don’t know how to make a proper click n kill game anymore.

March 27 Forgotten Gods Grim Dawn!! Much better click n kill than D3.
03/09/2019 12:35 PMPosted by Saidosha


For #1 and #2, a thought exercise I posed to clueso in the past about this topic is what it would take to make a character equipped with 13 2 affix blue items competitive with someone wearing 13 6 affix legendaries. That would mean adding up all the stats of the latter and then finding some sort of absurd blue affix spread where something like +STR would be exponentially higher on the blue items, the process then repeating for Crit Chance, Resistances, etc.. But then what happens when you mix and match, doing something like picking the barest minimum of defensive properties and pumping the rest into absurd damage output boosts? You wind up with a game more imbalanced than under the presumption legendaries are best, and you can bet that is exactly the route min/maxers would take and likely whine when they find general content too easy.

[/quote]I disagree to an extent that magic two affix items should be comparable to 6 affix rares... maybe comparable with 4 affix rares of a previous "tier" (I put that in quotes because I envision a very loosely tiered system of base items and not something akin to D3 where lvl 59 item has 300 armor and lvl 60 item has 350 armor and lvl 63 armor has 400 AND a tiered system of affixes very similar to D2 meaning highest tier might be available at level 30 or 40 or 50 and not 100.)

But here is what you aren't taking into consideration in your thought experiment. Its is not necessary (nor desirable) to multiply magic affixes by 3 and then say that the same raw amount of affixes (the sum total of the values) can be obtained by either combination and consider them to be equal. It doesn't take into account the rarity of a 6 affix rare item and that the 6 most desirable affixes will be selected.

What we actually want to do is to not make magic items irrelevant so soon. They should be viable because of their increased accessibility. In some cases they can find end game usage but that should happen only in certain cases - using D2 as an example, +3 skill bonus is only 50% more than +2 skill bonus but blue amulet was often end game viable for primarily casters but maybe others. Blue weapons could be good for melee because only magic could get the grandmasters prefix which was only like 33% higher than what a rare item could get.

The item generating rule I described in my previous post would make this possible in more situations because it wouldn't have like D2 where it is explicitly designed for this affix to be possible on magic item but not rare.
03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
I think PoE's overall drop rate is fine.. it's just that the odds of getting what you want for your build are very low because of the sheer number of items

Hate to say it again but you want to have your cake and eat it to.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
But D3's version of trade does that as well. In fact, it does that even more effectively given that you MUST play with others to trade.

But guess what the drop rates have to be to make this system viable. Too damn high. Plus we both know the process. Drop. Is this considerably better than what I already have. Yes. I keep it. No. Who doesn’t have it. Ok you. Here you go. Complete joke. Not even trade.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
This sounds suspiciously like a gambler's high, and I don't think any video game needs that to be successful.

Further, if you know what your item is worth and you know the other guy has what you want.. there should be no risk to the process. Unless you mean when the other guy tries to exploit you through bugs or glitches in the trade window process. Nobody should be looking forward to THAT, though. So I'm really not sure what this risk is that you're talking about.

That leaves only reward, and, well.. it's very possible to do rewards without trading. In fact, trading only adds a delay to your reward. If something drops you don't need then you have to waste time finding some other guy who does need it and has what you want before you get your reward.

Why would you want to willingly delay your reward?


Sounds like a high without rng. Wether it belongs is your opinion and it definitely differs from mine. All the rest are design issues and abuse which you seem to believe are unsolvable issues.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
I'd say it forces drop rates to be low. I don't see that as a good thing - it's utter nonsense to have to hunt for hundreds of hours just to maybe get 1 good item.

And before you bring up silver platter or casual nonsense, I once proposed a system years ago (before drop rates were increased to such insane levels, and before Ancients/Primals existed) where players could get maybe 1 legendary they wanted in this game with stats not guaranteed after 10-12 hours of playtime. That's not casual. At the time, that probably would have led to around 200 hours of investment per completed build. The nonsense at the time - hunting 500+ hours for items like Wand of Woh and not getting them - was absurd.

It's a game. Loot hunts have to pay off eventually, or players lose interest.

And if drop rates are that low then not only do I need to know what I need, but I basically need to be an expert about every item and every build in the game so that I know what's good and what isn't. That shouldn't be necessary.


Seems like an exaggeration. The only rpg game I remember having to play that long to find an item that provided some progression is early versions of D3. I suppose PoE having free trade and low drop rates is just an unexplainable miracle. As for knowledge of items, yeah even I have to do a quick search on items to this day but Diablo should be an rpg not mainstream trash an infant can play.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
And.. are you seriously saying lack of open trading is D3's biggest issue? Come on.


No.D3 is a complete dumpster fire. You would have to redesign everything to even think about instituting free trade. Perhaps that’s part of the reason even the greedy corporate sleaze bags abandoned D3. You pretty much need a new game to even think about uttering the word integrity.
03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
I think PoE's overall drop rate is fine.. it's just that the odds of getting what you want for your build are very low because of the sheer number of items

Hate to say it again but you want to have your cake and eat it to.


If by "have my cake and eat it too" you mean "have a reasonably long item hunt, but be able to complete it at some point," then yes.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
But D3's version of trade does that as well. In fact, it does that even more effectively given that you MUST play with others to trade.

But guess what the drop rates have to be to make this system viable. Too damn high. Plus we both know the process. Drop. Is this considerably better than what I already have. Yes. I keep it. No. Who doesn’t have it. Ok you. Here you go. Complete joke. Not even trade.


That system was viable for a while without the drop rates being too high. Drops became higher with the expansion of Seasons and the addition of T10 and then T13 and ever higher GRs resulting from power creep. Back after the first anniversary buff with T6 and GR ~45 being the maximum the drop rates were fine.

It's all the basic trade I need. Helps me get what I want and allows me to help others get what they want. I don't need to "win" at some virtual game economy to have fun playing a game. If I did, I'd be playing Hot Dog Stand. I'm not sold on the idea that a game "needs" an economy or ways to amass virtual wealth.

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
This sounds suspiciously like a gambler's high, and I don't think any video game needs that to be successful.

Further, if you know what your item is worth and you know the other guy has what you want.. there should be no risk to the process. Unless you mean when the other guy tries to exploit you through bugs or glitches in the trade window process. Nobody should be looking forward to THAT, though. So I'm really not sure what this risk is that you're talking about.

That leaves only reward, and, well.. it's very possible to do rewards without trading. In fact, trading only adds a delay to your reward. If something drops you don't need then you have to waste time finding some other guy who does need it and has what you want before you get your reward.

Why would you want to willingly delay your reward?


Sounds like a high without rng. Wether it belongs is your opinion and it definitely differs from mine. All the rest are design issues and abuse which you seem to believe are unsolvable issues.


So, again, what is this risk you were talking about?

03/09/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Orrion
I'd say it forces drop rates to be low. I don't see that as a good thing - it's utter nonsense to have to hunt for hundreds of hours just to maybe get 1 good item.

And before you bring up silver platter or casual nonsense, I once proposed a system years ago (before drop rates were increased to such insane levels, and before Ancients/Primals existed) where players could get maybe 1 legendary they wanted in this game with stats not guaranteed after 10-12 hours of playtime. That's not casual. At the time, that probably would have led to around 200 hours of investment per completed build. The nonsense at the time - hunting 500+ hours for items like Wand of Woh and not getting them - was absurd.

It's a game. Loot hunts have to pay off eventually, or players lose interest.

And if drop rates are that low then not only do I need to know what I need, but I basically need to be an expert about every item and every build in the game so that I know what's good and what isn't. That shouldn't be necessary.


Seems like an exaggeration. The only rpg game I remember having to play that long to find an item that provided some progression is early versions of D3. I suppose PoE having free trade and low drop rates is just an unexplainable miracle. As for knowledge of items, yeah even I have to do a quick search on items to this day but Diablo should be an rpg not mainstream trash an infant can play.


I am not exaggerating. I literally spent 500 hours hunting for Wand of Woh in Reaper's first year. Never found it until after the anniversary buff and Kadala's first buff (and naturally the first one I found was almost useless because it rolled in the bottom 2% on damage - I hate variable affixes). It also took me upwards of 17000 Blood Shards to find a 2 missile Mirrorball with Kadala's first iteration -- that's over 3400 Sources bought, not including ones I found via drops. I did find a 1 missile Mirrorball somewhere around 12000, but even so.. that was a .059% drop rate on Mirrorball for me. I'm sure some old Witch Doctor players can regale you with similar horror stories about Starmetal Kukri, and there are tons of stories about the other such items that had artificially lowered drop rates, such as Shard of Hate before it was bug fixed, or The Furnace.

I'm sorry, but RPGs shouldn't require you to be an expert on everything to play them effectively. That's honestly how PoE feels - I refer to it as the hardcore gamer's ARPG. Which is fine as far as it goes, but I can rarely dedicate the time these days to make significant progress in it.

I'll cite Grim Dawn again. I've played multiclass combinations of the Demolitionist, Shaman, Arcanist, Inquisitor, and Soldier. Still not an expert in any of them except perhaps the Arcanist (because it's my favorite starting class) due to the sheer build variety the game has, and I've never seriously played the Necromancer or the Occultist and thus know very little about their multiclasses or endgame builds.

If Grim Dawn had better multiplayer optimization, I'd probably be playing it nonstop.
03/09/2019 06:02 PMPosted by Orrion
I refer to it as the hardcore gamer's ARPG.


Lol. It just has lots of rpg elements that each have lots of choices and customization. It requires thought and a willingness to learn and adapt. I am far from a hardcore gamer, I just make one character per season. I believe PoE is the standard for what a modern RPG should be. Everything else is sacrificing quality and depth to appeal to more people that may not have the time or intelligence for a rpg. They cave to jealousy and entitlement to maximize profits and along the way, they make it less of a game.
03/09/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
03/09/2019 06:02 PMPosted by Orrion
I refer to it as the hardcore gamer's ARPG.


Lol. It just has lots of rpg elements that each have lots of choices and customization. It requires thought and a willingness to learn and adapt. I am far from a hardcore gamer, I just make one character per season. I believe PoE is the standard for what a modern RPG should be. Everything else is sacrificing quality and depth to appeal to more people that may not have the time or intelligence for a rpg. They cave to jealousy and entitlement to maximize profits and along the way, they make it less of a game.


It seems like you should just be playing PoE then if it's everything you want.
03/09/2019 08:01 PMPosted by Orrion
It seems like you should just be playing PoE then if it's everything you want.


Oh trust me I am. Just sad to see a franchise regress to D3 and further into the gutter to Immortal. Maybe I’m foolish to believe my opinions matter, but when I see a disgusting trend like this for a franchise that paved the way for this genre I find it difficult to remain silent.
03/07/2019 02:04 AMPosted by Frostraven
Separate skill unlocks from skill upgrades -- potentially with quests rewards that grants a choice of upgrades, passive stat bonuses, or skill unlocks, so that players get 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 -- possibly 12 -- skills


You're asking to get higher server lag often. There are better ways to get rewarded than asking 4 players spamming 12 different kinds of firewalls, lasers, beams, projectiles, area of effect trails and lingering vapors.


Or, you know, they could go back to Diablo I and II levels of special effects -- gothic style magic, where a fiery explosion is a quickly expanding flash of fire that's barely visible in daylight, with some smoke and debris particle effects.

Cold is nearly invisible apart from visual distortion coloring the ground and air affected.
Lightning is a flash that's gone in an instant.

Arrows are actual arrows, not tracers with glowing red outlines.

And then -- the skills are skills that typically end before the character can use 5 more skills.

With separated unlocks from upgrades, you can actually get and use skills that only affect undead -- because it doesn't take skillpoints or upgrades that could have made another universal skill better versus undead than the undead-skill is for a character that picked the skill.


03/07/2019 02:04 AMPosted by Frostraven
The item can be transfered to one other player, once, only through the trade screen.
No flipping. No profiting.


Inflation will be the bane of such model with once traded rule. Also Kanai's Cube rare to legendary upgrade recipes, simply negate any sort of attempt you try to bring trade in.


Then don't have inflation; Items has to be traded that one time within 48 / 96 hours -- whatever is necessary to stop items from being hoarded indefinitely.
03/06/2019 05:32 AMPosted by Dietrich
What a waste of time to read. I'll save everyone the trouble and sum it up here

Make it like d2 and add auction house

Loved that you had to click through 11 pages to read that rubbish which I'm sure was set up that way to maximize the ads that were blocked in my browser.

Not saying this game is perfect and doesn't still have problems that exist today, but D2 wasn't all that great either. Fanboys like to act like D2 was the pinnacle of all gaming for some reason. D2 was a good game for it's time but flawed in many ways and should not be the template for D4.

Please don't listen to the boomers who want games to devolve 20 years.


I was with you on the ad hate angle, but you totally lost me on the anti-D2 fan angle.

D2 holds legendary status for a reason and at the time was the greatest game ever released. So shame on you for trying to delegitimize it.
where a fiery explosion is a quickly expanding flash of fire that's barely visible in daylight


How about "no"? Visibility is a part of dynamic combat in D3; lingering elite abilities for area denial and visual cues for buffs are flow of it. Glare effects may pale the contrast and turn it into a smudge of colors but it's still there.
Also 12 different skills with "barely visible effects", still means there will be damage calculations stacking up for them to the server in a feedback loop. I believe this will be the case no matter how dim you want the effects.

Again, there are better ways to ask for a reward besides asking entire server to get lag spikes.

03/10/2019 08:21 AMPosted by Frostraven
Items has to be traded that one time within 48 / 96 hours


I believe that doesn't do anything to counter-measure. What you're asking for is the old system with money transaction and this time rarity and trade limit will make them irregularly pricey.

03/10/2019 09:27 AMPosted by Superchang
but you totally lost me on the anti-D2 fan angle.


I kinda have to admit D2 fanboys get on my nerves sometimes too and I'm one of them as well. Instead of admitting game had flaws here and there at the name of being objective, they dismiss everything. When I point out game had a vast community and it was a mixed bag, I find a few angry people infront of me praising game and tagging me as the troll.

Else, in a reverse model, I find people who leeched MF-runs in their entire D2 gameplay life or learnt nothing about how a community works, trying to sell their faulty way of playing endgame as a flaw.
It's a mixed bag, really. I gave up on criticizing people's view on fans at least.

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