The reason why massive multipliers were implemented

General Discussion
I think I understand now why these massive multipliers on sets and legendaries (aka Skill X deals 800%/15.000% increased damage etc) were implemented in RoS and then inflated further and further, although it was one of the more controversial additions that came with RoS, because according to some players these items are so powerful that they significantly decrease build and item diversity.

During the initial launch of RoS, these massive multipliers were not a part of the game, they only came a few patches later iirc. The first items of Loot 2.0 were legendaries that had some nice proc effects that were more or less useful for various kinds of builds and skills, but nothing that was so powerful and specifically directed towards certain skills that it funneled everyone into the same items and builds like it is currently in D3.

I always wondered why the devs went down this road in the first place and later inflated these numbers further and further instead of creating a system of itemization that allows us players more freedom in which skills and items we want to use, especially because it would have made the game so much better.

Now I think I know why this happened. A few days ago I read Jason Schreier's article from last November again that followed the D:I controversy, about what is going on behind the scenes in the Diablo team according to several anonymous Blizzard employees and insiders and about what happened to D3.

For references, the article can be found here:
https://kotaku.com/the-past-present-and-future-of-diablo-1830593195

According to this article, the Diablo 3 team was told by the higher-ups that the second D3 expansion was canceled shortly before RoS was even released and that they got told to just release some of the things that were planned for the second expansion and polish it and then move on to work on D4.

Now it totally makes sense why the D3 devs had to go down the lazy road of just funneling everyone into the same builds and skills and creating items whose primary feature are massive multipliers: there simply were no resources available to give D3 a more deep and complex itemization system, because at that time, most of the devs have already moved on to D4.

tl:dr
The devs had to go down the lazy road and create a more simplistic itemization system with massive multipliers in RoS, because even before RoS was released, most of the Diablo team was redirected by the higher-ups to work on Diablo 4, so they didn't had the resources available to implement a deeper and more complex itemization system.
why does everything have massive multipliers? simple. because the community would be in an uproar if a build mechanic was nerfed, so they stopped nerfing for the most part. in order to bring balance to the game, they had to buff instead, resulting in over-buffing, which required everything else to be buffed again, and the cycle repeats.
Actually they made these nice procs that meant skills weren't important, it was all about procs. So to make skills matter more they created items that enhanced certain skills to be better than these procs.

Then a set was created called the Marauders, which players just took much further than expected, and created a new standard. Given the no nerf policy they had to increase everything in accordance to. And that balancing went on and on for some time, until it hit a point where things worked out, but to give a sense of progress they decided to up a few numbers. Then everything went uneven again, and more multilpliers was added to avoid "over inflation" of numbers.

Then things just went out of hand....
03/10/2019 11:58 AMPosted by Ryoko
why does everything have massive multipliers? simple. because the community would be in an uproar if a build mechanic was nerfed, so they stopped nerfing for the most part. in order to bring balance to the game, they had to buff instead, resulting in over-buffing, which required everything else to be buffed again, and the cycle repeats.

My point was not about whether these multipliers should be buffed or nerfed, but rather why they were being implemented in the first place.

03/10/2019 12:14 PMPosted by KiWeN
Actually they made these nice procs that meant skills weren't important, it was all about procs. So to make skills matter more they created items that enhanced certain skills to be better than these procs.

Then a set was created called the Marauders, which players just took much further than expected, and created a new standard.

I think the reason why procs were so powerful at the beginning was because there was no proc-coefficient and so skills that would hit larger area or attack very fast (like Rapid Fire) would proc the proc a ton of times, more than it was intended by the devs.

03/10/2019 12:14 PMPosted by KiWeN
Given the no nerf policy they had to increase everything in accordance to. And that balancing went on and on for some time, until it hit a point where things worked out, but to give a sense of progress they decided to up a few numbers. Then everything went uneven again, and more multilpliers was added to avoid "over inflation" of numbers.

Then things just went out of hand....

The "no-nerf policy" is one of the stupidest things in this game imo.
The "no-nerf policy" is one of the stupidest things in this game imo.
E


As i've said, numbers should mean something. Numbers on D3 are ridiculous inflated that not only lost his meaning but made impossible for someone with smaller multiplier to fight alongside an party member with better multipliers.

On D2, if you don't have top tier gear, you still able to help and play with someone with top tier gear. If you can only clear GR 50, you can join in a party of someone playing GR 75, fire all day and will not deal any damage...
Sounds about right to me. I think they realized that the foundation wasn't really good enough to hold a good itemization system without a total overhaul so we will just add some skill modifiers and hope it doesn't look too lazy.
03/10/2019 11:58 AMPosted by Ryoko
why does everything have massive multipliers? simple. because the community would be in an uproar if a build mechanic was nerfed, so they stopped nerfing for the most part. in order to bring balance to the game, they had to buff instead, resulting in over-buffing, which required everything else to be buffed again, and the cycle repeats.


This

Good to see someone who actually understands.
the 'reason' and 'i think'

yeah, didn't even read your post. left a downvote for you though

E: oh, here's my opinion on why: they want big numbers to compensate for little D's
E2: i bet my comment will be deleted as usual. mods seem to love looking for my posts Lol -- that or some snowflake/s love abusing the report feature
03/10/2019 10:26 AMPosted by clueso
Now it totally makes sense why the D3 devs had to go down the lazy road of just funneling everyone into the same builds and skills and creating items whose primary feature are massive multipliers: there simply were no resources available to give D3 a more deep and complex itemization system, because at that time, most of the devs have already moved on to D4.


The damage boosts were always trickling constantly upwards. This idiocy can be attributed to the creators of the game from when it was released until now.

It is incorrect to try and excuse the idiocy by reasoning that late in the games lifespan the devs were ordered to cease innovation, because that innovation never existed before.
"Infinite scaling" and horrible balance is the actual culprit. In a game with finite scaling, it is difficult so see the balance difference when multiple builds can clear the top content. With D3ROS and infinite scaling, the balance difference was overly obvious with different classes clearing gr's 10-20 levels higher and builds in the same class having much bigger gr differences than that. In order to try to balance, they buffed lower builds, but instead over-buffed and a new class was on top. As Ryoko said above, the process continued over and over until we are where we are now. As for being funneled into sets, that was done because they thought it would be easier to control balance if everyone was funneled into a few builds, which they couldn't even balance that right.
All I see is another nonsense thread which rely upon a months old shill article to get replies and reactions. Why you wanna give Blizzard any benefit of doubt? You're trying to tie second expansion's cancellation with weak design direction that was ongoing for years.

RoS and D3 were both profitable, go check quarterly and yearly reports of Blizzard if you don't believe me. No higher up chief or chairman, would ever call neither D3, nor its expansion pack RoS as a failure. Don't confuse the facts with the shills trying to relate to fans; higher ups or low ground workers don't care about critics. You can replace some "Diablo 4" words on that article with "Diablo: Immortal" and it'd still make sense for instance.

Main reason behind cancellation of D3 second expansion is them deciding to seek their fortune at China after their cash shop were successful enough. That's where Diablo: Immortal comes in, not D4, unlike many rabid fanboys imagine. They stepped into China around '15 with D3 cash shop and it was a massive success.
Deals and contracts done with NetEase possibly prior to Necro DLC. However second expansion worked through half-way already when it was canceled; that's how we got Necro DLC and 10 different areas in D3 as form of free updates. The end.

No such thing as "it was canceled before they can even take a step. Oh woe is me *dramatic faint*" here. They were on it but then statistics busted in about their cash shop in China and there comes the change of plans. Upon receiving news, they did a deal and dismantled D3 team for helping outsource and left D3 for the classic games team to maintain.
Also note; all these happened in Mike Morhaime's leadership; it was his vision to slide to mobile as their "winning game". Search for the interview with Mike. I reckon around that time D3 second expansion pack already got canceled and Mike started to talk about mobile gaming.

Nothing too hard to imagine or think when you see solid evidence instead of believing an article with highlights and headlines made out of movie names. A short-term bigger profit with smaller investment in time, won over everything. Claiming otherwise would only be a pipe dream.
They were testing the waters in China after AH closure upon tax laws and they got the information they needed. They couldn't monetize D3 at US-EU when they're on the hook by regulations anyway.
Josh possibly got frustrated at the face of canceled projects and left the company to start his own. I doubt Josh would leave if he were to work on a solid project like Diablo 4 or had any chance to begin with.

Infinite scaling is a result of Josh (game director, after Jay, also friend of him) lending an ear to the fans instead of using his own insight. That article doesn't excuse him and development team for not having foresight about RoS' integrity and progress flow. I think there are articles about Josh giving D3 fans what they wanted and "saved" D3, if you search for it.
Paragon levels system, loot and all that infinite scaling mush added to the game by fan pressure after release of RoS. People thought D1 and D2 consisted of boss runs only and they asked something to replace it. Now we have to play a crooked view from an amalgamation of fans. So you can repeat the same process with bigger numbers everytime in 150 tiers of Greater Rifts. Those over-repeating suggestions were massively vocal and all over Reddit as well as posted here.

If you asked me I'd say developer team was a bunch of newly grad math students but that'd be an insult to mathematicians. They must be obsessed with numbers to find this any plausible or too tired to care anymore about competence.
We're simply playing a mockery of what Diablo was before; widely diverted from previous games, losing its ambience to emphasis on a power fantasy. At RoS, design was close to Clicker Heroes, now with Diablo Immortal, it's a question if we'll have Idle Quest too. Tieing this design route with Diablo 4 is nothing but speculation when Diablo Immortal is right under our nose and when they simply love social outlets more than their core fanbase.

So, no, it was all about fanbase community pressure and money. They always liked social outlets like Reddit better than here and D3 cash shop at China was more important than people think.
Whatever you do, Kotaku will still be a shill nest for the oncoming years.
Anyone with an ounce of sense can tell, they ain't gonna release next Diablo as a sequel aRPG rival to Diablo Immortal right away. No matter how you put it, it doesn't make sense to pull potential customer base away from D:I by alluring them with another rival game of your own. Why would you split the potential MTX customer base without learning how to monetize D4, also planning to support D:I along the years?

They canceled D3's expansion pack for the sake of working on Diablo: Immortal and not take the spotlight away from it. What really made you think they will release D4 on PC as an aRPG soon or exclusively working on it?
There will be a cease down delay for popularity before they bear the good news or start working about D4, if it ever exists of course. D4 looks shelved until they figure out how to work MTX on it. They had no plans of showing anything about D4 at Blizzcon, that's exactly why Jason got shutdown by Blizzard once before that article.

I honestly got tired of people worshipping and praising media's words in a rabid manner to the point of insulting anyone who refuse to believe without seeing an action. "Multiple projects" is just a buzzword for masses right now. They just wanna chase the market at D3 for revenue and it was AH before law regulations, now it's China cash shop. Why do you think they talked about trading system in D:I announcement? To bring game "20 years backwards", no, it's for profits.

I'm telling you, you're looking at a team that has lost their game director and dismantled to make a mobile game for faster "engagement".
If they were working on Diablo 4 on PC right now; we wouldn't get a canceled expansion on PC for D3; Mike wouldn't call mobile as the "winning game" 2 years prior of D:I announce; Allen wouldn't doubleback on mobile at the interviews after Blizzcon; Wyatt and Frank wouldn't go to "Incubation" team while they can lead another big Diablo project; Wyatt and Allen wouldn't go around answering questions about mobile only and Josh would stay with Blizzard to lead the project after those prototypes mentioned in the article.
May be I'm the one overthinking and belittling the team, even then, it doesn't make sense under the light of this views. Their vision on the franchise surely changed along the years.

There are loner or part of a less-known network, journalists out there doing a way better job than mainstream shill "gaming" journalists. Mainstream media exists to protect big companies, not to inform you.
The many Multipliers also helps level the playing field. Bad RNG on one item has less of an impact over the many. It also allows for quick progression with a single item at a time. It also allows you to trade a damage multiplier more easily for toughness depending on your desires with less of an effect.
03/10/2019 10:26 AMPosted by clueso


tl:dr
The devs had to go down the lazy road and create a more simplistic itemization system with massive multipliers in RoS, because even before RoS was released, most of the Diablo team was redirected by the higher-ups to work on Diablo 4, so they didn't had the resources available to implement a deeper and more complex itemization system.


There's 2 problems with that:

1) RoS didn't start out with massive multipliers. It only started getting them after the first couple of Seasons. That was 2 years into the expansion.

2) If resources were all redirected 5 years ago there should have been an inkling about D4 by now, but there is nothing.
03/10/2019 10:26 AMPosted by clueso
The devs had to go down the lazy road and create a more simplistic itemization system


The lazy road would have been to simply adjust skills and skill runes. They actually had to put some effort into making an already bad system worse. Only one explanation for that. Incompetence.
03/10/2019 08:23 PMPosted by Orrion
1) RoS didn't start out with massive multipliers. It only started getting them after the first couple of Seasons. That was 2 years into the expansion.

that is exactly what I am saying in my original post.
The way I remember it, green set items were crap. The item tiers went: WHITE, YELLOW, GREEN, then most ORANGE.
To make it worse green hardly ever dropped. So players would work their tail off grinding out a full set and it would be inferior to every other build that did not use them. One of the blue posts during that time even said they wanted to make sets more powerful and be worthy of the time it took to complete the set. In reading the proc issue on regular legendary items above it makes sense then that they had to go to stupid town to get the sets above non sets.
03/10/2019 01:11 PMPosted by clueso
The "no-nerf policy" is one of the stupidest things in this game imo.

Personally I prefer balance the game by "nerfing the overpower" rather than "buff the weak to match the strongest" but I won't call "no-nerf policy" stupid, because that policy is only a result of developers had listened to a opinion that opposite to my willing :-)
Cause size matters
In regards to infinite scaling, Josh did have a hand in it's creation and implementation into the core of the game but it was actually Steven who worked on it during it's inception and birthed it from a disordered groupings of monster health numbers, and instead created the awakening of each monster into it's own habitable and completely sentient encasement.

It was not Steven's vision that i would be able to Dash Nagel Scout monk my way to T242, providing essential knowledge of map overlay and herding locations, but instead Steven chose the vision of the "Innumerably Infinite Isotope" (Hereby referred to as III. In III (Diablo 3), Steven chose to once again prove that always evolving character stats (based on mind thought and optical mouse technology) as to make it relevant to whether or not you will be one shotted, put Steven at odds with Josh and it was't long before Josh was kneeling before the higher ups, promising them a brand new porsche as long as he could release the infected blankets to the natives (AKA Diablo: Immortal (and its expansion Diablo:MyThumbisTooFatToPlayOnPhoneAnymore)).

So with this act, Josh not only proved he loved the cash market in China more than the American player base, but also that his linguistics in regards to infinite number and character backstory generation real time into D3 has been such a conundrum. Not only can you be one shotted by spears on T13 when you can clear T80 "ez", but Steven made sure that if you listen close enough, you can hear the subtle whispers of your ever burgeoning Paragon Levels lead you into tankier monsters where one day it is either play on normal again or push it through T136.

However, Josh was snubbed by Steven at a developers party at "Randy Marsh's Nightclub and Pizza Buffet". When confronted with the fact that all monsters are sentient within the D3 servers now, Steven mockingly said to Josh whilst waiting for the next tray of pepperoni," Told ya Dash Monk would be viable if you grind enough shards and give your primals to Squirt A-Wink". This comment was previously held back from the general public due to the reddit memers.

And so we find ourselves in a classically obtuse stalemate between Steven and Josh, in which Josh will neither accept defeat and yield his developer resources to Steven, but also that Steven takes no solace in the fact he must now bury his programming, his Coup De Grace, if you will, so deep within the embedded servers which keep our RNG stable, that he is now expecting a rather ambiguous birthday party as everyone will be focused on the cash market in china (Hence D:I)

However, withing the III realm of number generality processes, not only has it been established that without detailed patch notes on how the now sentient monsters (Steven's Creations) will ever stop one shotting with spears as well inflicting millions of points of thorns if you dare to collect perfect nagelrings. Not only has the awakened reality of D3 forever changed the scope of the gaming universe, it also will live on in Steven's memory for ages to come, according to the great calendars of the East.

TL;DR = Steven made the monsters sentient
Josh got butthurt that the China cash grab is going swimmingly
The higher ups want D4 more than anything but won't be able to pay for their candies unless they sap China's agrarian population with inflated microtransactions for a game you play with your thumbs on a 4 inch screen.

TL;DR the TL;DR = Josh > Steven
Higherups <3 China money
Monsters are sentient
Density Summon Nagel Dash Scout monk is the new meta
Because they didn't have an AI balance unused items up to close to the used items. Human's can not possibly do all the micro buffs needed to get within 1-2 grs of the other builds. And so they made 4 builds to balance for each class to actually make it somewhat possible. The other reason is because people b1+ch and moan and complain that they aren't powerful enough to compete.

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