Point by point : Why D:I isn't a reskin

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02/13/2019 02:46 AMPosted by Meteorblade
02/13/2019 01:32 AMPosted by KushiSensei
And therefore they should never try to expand their fan base?

Not if it costs them their existing fan base.


Everything usually comes at the cost of something else.
People act like Blizzard is going mobile only and that's just not true.

This is what they are working on and have to show "at this moment in time".

if you think that they are not actively working on the next PC title, you should take another look at the open positions on their Career page that people don't seem to take into account.

People are just mad they didn't get what they were expecting when they wanted it.
02/13/2019 03:00 AMPosted by KushiSensei
People act like Blizzard is going mobile only and that's just not true.


Investor report says they plan on releasing games at China through NetEase 'till 2023. I wonder how will they find time to work on PC. Looking at it, that's shaded by after the comments of "we moved many of our best developers to mobile" from Allen Adham after Blizzcon'18.
They aren't planning any major releases in '19 if rumors are true, that means D:I, will release at '20 or so and until that time I kinda doubt they'll release a PC Diablo game to rival their own.

Would we hear announces for PC and consoles? Yeah, may be. But if it's stated no major releases that also may mean no major announces as well. I would turn out wrong when time has come, but personally I don't expect anything if D:I is still ahead of us. If they announce something at Blizzcon'20 about a big Diablo title, I expect release date to be scheduled for '23.

tl;dr: don't expect anything at '19 and perhaps '20 about big major releases or even announces for that matter. D3 is here to stay for a while awaiting D:I, that's emphasized by quarterly reports talk about investing more into the owned franchises and contract with NetEase.
02/13/2019 01:32 AMPosted by KushiSensei
02/12/2019 03:17 PMPosted by Orrion
The thing is that it’s a huge letdown from a company like Blizzard anyway, completely independent of whether it’s a reskin.

Blizzard is not a mobile game company or a console game company. They’re a computer game company and have been for over 20 years.


And therefore they should never try to expand their fan base?


This is where I tell you to read the rest of my post because I specifically said there was no problem with them expanding into the mobile market. I said the problem is (apparently) abandoning everything else to do it.

Besides, most of their earlier titles were for consoles. hell, even Diablo 1 was launched on the PS1 (I think it was at the same time as the PC launch or afterwards. I don't remember).


No, Diablo 1 was ported to the PS1, and badly. And Starcraft was ported to the N64, at least. Ports are different in that they weren’t originally intended to be on that system. Overwatch on the Xbox One, for example, is not a port because it was intended to be on both consoles and PC.

The only game I’m aware of them producing for the console itself back then was the Vikings game for the SNES. In fact, I’m pretty sure that’s the last actual console game they made until Overwatch. But even if you can cite other obscure titles the fact remains that the company’s success was rooted in their PC titles. Diablo 1 and 2 on PC, Warcraft 1-3, Starcraft, and World of Warcraft.

The way I see it is that what happened the past few months is just general disdain for 2 major reasons: Disappointment over the fact that Diablo Immortal is not a PC title and sheer hatred for mobile phones as a gaming platform.


Is this where I say “duh”? What did you expect? The vast majority of Blizzard’s current fan base are PC gamers, with console gamers starting up now that Overwatch and D3 were released on them.

Then they threw that away to say they’re going into the mobile market. Not “we’re branching into the mobile market.” It’s “we’re leaving you all behind to go into the mobile market.” Or at least that’s been the general feeling from what they’ve announced and said afterward.

Personally, I have no problem with Diablo Immortal because it's not the only project they are working on. if it was - all those hiring posts over the past 18 months would have a cruel practical joke on everyone. People are impatient and want the next thing asap - which is understandable but also unrealistic.


Some of the hiring posts have been there for much longer than that, and there’s been no indication that Blizzard specifically is speeding up the release schedule. They’ve been pretty consistent over the years - they only release 1 game every few years. The layoffs certainly don’t back up an increased production rhetoric. And if D:I and more mobile stuff is what we’re going to get over the next several.. well, better hope mobile brings in new fans ‘cause a lot of the current ones will move on.

I get why people feel abandoned by Blizzard for making Diablo Immortal but I don't mind that. if it brings more people to the fan base, more money for Blizzard and subsequently Activision and that means more funding to make more content - i'm okay with that. And, as always - it's a game like any other game and you can choose to play it or not. Just don't act like Blizzard is beholden to a "one platform fan base".


Again, as I posted already and you ignored, the point is not that Blizzard is expanding into the mobile market. It’s that they appear to be expanding into the mobile market at the cost of everything else.
So this thread proves what?

That Imperius and Shadowagis both survived the Blizzard firings?
Something else that hasn't been considered is the short time for blizzard to presentent D:I. It's clear that what we saw in Blizzcon is a prototype of what it'll be the final product. Netease didn't have time to build a new game, so they used Endless of god and reskined it with assets given by Blizzard.
You can compare both and you'll see there are many visual elements that are excaxtly the same, for exaple some gui elements like these:

https://i.imgur.com/jB5m67i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NF5J7gV.jpg

Or some 3d models and terrain:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_CpDb5S0UI/maxresdefault.jpg

Even particle system and skills:
https://youtu.be/2-SLvqXyrI4?t=162
https://youtu.be/Ab2-WW1skOM?t=94

In conclusion, not only share the same engine but also they are the same game. Only diablo Immortal has been reskined and has had some minor changes like the color palette, and camera angle. Those things can be done in a couple of days given the source code, assets and programming documentation of already made game. Of course you already noticed that OP, because you are an expert in game designing and programming, right?
02/13/2019 07:58 AMPosted by Chipoodle
Something else that hasn't been considered is the short time for blizzard to presentent D:I. It's clear that what we saw in Blizzcon is a prototype of what it'll be the final product. Netease didn't have time to build a new game, so they used Endless of god and reskined it with assets given by Blizzard.
You can compare both and you'll see there are many visual elements that are excaxtly the same, for exaple some gui elements like these:

https://i.imgur.com/jB5m67i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NF5J7gV.jpg

Or some 3d models and terrain:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_CpDb5S0UI/maxresdefault.jpg

Even particle system and skills:
https://youtu.be/2-SLvqXyrI4?t=162
https://youtu.be/Ab2-WW1skOM?t=94

In conclusion, not only share the same engine but also they are the same game. Only diablo Immortal has been reskined and has had some minor changes like the color palette, and camera angle. Those things can be done in a couple of days given the source code, assets and programming documentation of already made game. Of course you already noticed that OP, because you are an expert in game designing and programming, right?


Thanks for providing some images, it really does show the similarities.
I also find it weird they had time to announce it main stage, but then have nothing. Seems like they just copied the test made some changes so it didn't look so obvious then turned it in.
02/13/2019 07:29 AMPosted by Howdypardner
So this thread proves what?

That Imperius and Shadowagis both survived the Blizzard firings?


BTW, I found a pic of both of them when diablo forum started and now:

https://pics.me.me/brothers-30-years-later-portrait-goals-af-the-dark-white-knight-the-dark-white-knight-27975258.png
02/13/2019 07:58 AMPosted by Chipoodle
Something else that hasn't been considered is the short time for blizzard to presentent D:I. It's clear that what we saw in Blizzcon is a prototype of what it'll be the final product. Netease didn't have time to build a new game, so they used Endless of god and reskined it with assets given by Blizzard.
You can compare both and you'll see there are many visual elements that are excaxtly the same, for exaple some gui elements like these:

https://i.imgur.com/jB5m67i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NF5J7gV.jpg

Or some 3d models and terrain:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_CpDb5S0UI/maxresdefault.jpg

Even particle system and skills:
https://youtu.be/2-SLvqXyrI4?t=162
https://youtu.be/Ab2-WW1skOM?t=94

In conclusion, not only share the same engine but also they are the same game. Only diablo Immortal has been reskined and has had some minor changes like the color palette, and camera angle. Those things can be done in a couple of days given the source code, assets and programming documentation of already made game. Of course you already noticed that OP, because you are an expert in game designing and programming, right?


Those GUI element : Same across most mobile games with potions... the skills are arranged the same way on every rpg on mobile. Aside from that everything is placed differently.

The so-called "same 3D terrain" : It shows two very different maps for the layout, but yeah both have a cartoony style, which isn't surprising since it's using the same art style from D3. Endless God is a self described D3 inspired game.

Same skills? : How do you animate whirlwind? As I said in the original post, the whirlwind skill is the main reason why people think it's a reskin, but fail to see that every other skill is unique.
02/13/2019 09:02 AMPosted by Imperius
Same skills? : How do you animate whirlwind? As I said in the original post, the whirlwind skill is the main reason why people think it's a reskin, but fail to see that every other skill is unique.


Well none of my business if you don't have enough intelligence to see it. but i can make an assumption as you always do and help you a little: As i previously stated, D:I is a prototype, they needed time to build a game from the ground. that's why they are hiring programmers and they won't announce any game in 2019. They needed something to present at blizzcon, so they used Netease's already made game as a base. It cannot be other way because of the short time frame they had.

Just look at both videos and copare all the presented skills and particle system and think about it:
  • They are made by the same company (netease)
  • They have the same game engine for mobiles (Messiah)
  • They had short time to build a prototype
  • Blizzard is starting to understand documentation and training their new programmers to understand the engine


What other evidence you need to understand D:I is a reskinned game? are you this naive?
They are made by the same company (netease)
Proves absolutely nothing

They have the same game engine for mobiles (Messiah)
Proves nothing. An engine is nothing but a platform that provides tools for developing a game... you can make basically any game out of it. See what games were built with the Unreal Engine and you'll see an engine is a lot more versatile than you think.

They had short time to build a prototype
It's an alpha build, not a prototype. It was stated clearly by Blizzard.

Blizzard is starting to understand documentation and training their new programmers to understand the engine
There's no proof of that, though I'm sure there was a learning curve at some point, but they are professionals and it shouldn't be that difficult to adapt to a different engine. The biggest difficulty when using a different engine is learning its limitations.
02/13/2019 09:35 AMPosted by Imperius
They are made by the same company (netease)
Proves absolutely nothing

Proves they are behind the programming of D:I

02/13/2019 09:35 AMPosted by Imperius
They have the same game engine for mobiles (Messiah)
Proves nothing. An engine is nothing but a platform that provides tools for developing a game... you can make basically any game out of it. See what games were built with the Unreal Engine and you'll see an engine is a lot more versatile than you think.


Unreal engine is different to Messiah engine you know? Messiah is specific to mobile games. Also, considering the time frame, they hadn't enogh of it to build a game from scratch so they used an already made one.

02/13/2019 09:35 AMPosted by Imperius
They had short time to build a prototype
It's an alpha build, not a prototype. It was stated clearly by Blizzard.


How do you know it? Do you have any proof of this? Evenmore, do you know a system in alpha stage can be also a prototype in some cases?

02/13/2019 09:35 AMPosted by Imperius
Blizzard is starting to understand documentation and training their new programmers to understand the engine
There's no proof of that, though I'm sure there was a learning curve at some point, but they are professionals and it shouldn't be that difficult to adapt to a different engine. The biggest difficulty when using a different engine is learning its limitations.


Sorry but you clearly don't know any of that business...To learn to use a game engine is not a easy thing. Why they need 2+ years to announce diablo Immortal? why they are hiring programers if it is almost done as you are suggesting? Do you have any proof of what you are saying? Are you part of the team? Do you have any programming or game designing knowledge of that matter?
Unreal engine is different to Messiah engine you know? Messiah is specific to mobile games.

Again.. what does it prove? Look at some footage on how an engine is used...

How do you know it? Do you have any proof of this? Evenmore, do you know an alfa staged system may be also a prototype in some cases?

Sure the game you showcase at blizzcon could be called a prototype, after all everything is locked to one or two areas. Nev did an interview with Rhykker and said they were much a ahead in development of Diablo : Immortal, but the playable demo was to give a taste of what's to come.

02/13/2019 09:49 AMPosted by Chipoodle
To learn to use a game engine is not a easy thing. Why they need 2+ years to announce diablo Immortal?

There is a learning curve, but every engine is built around the same principles. You can find youtube videos showcasing different engines. It's not easy, but once you know how to use one and mastered it, you can use another one. The problem remains knowing what the engine excels at and what it handles poorly.

For example, the Unreal Engine 4 greatly improved elements like dust and mist, while the Unreal Engine 3 made it so that adding dust or mist would boost the system requirements of a game by a lot more. In games made with Unreal Engine 3 mist looked unrealistic on purpose.
02/12/2019 03:17 PMPosted by Orrion

Blizzard is not a mobile game company or a console game company. They’re a computer game company and have been for over 20 years.


I'm not gonna get into the argument that this thread is mostly about, because it's emotional people saying angry, emotional things. I just wanted to point out to this wonderful (not sarcastic, just trying to bring some positive emotions in here) that Blizz has actually been a console game company longer than they've been a PC game company. :P
02/13/2019 06:24 AMPosted by Orrion

Some of the hiring posts have been there for much longer than that, and there’s been no indication that Blizzard specifically is speeding up the release schedule. They’ve been pretty consistent over the years - they only release 1 game every few years. The layoffs certainly don’t back up an increased production rhetoric. And if D:I and more mobile stuff is what we’re going to get over the next several.. well, better hope mobile brings in new fans ‘cause a lot of the current ones will move on.


There actually is a big indicator that Blizz is working on big things. In their talk with the investors, they announced that they were going to GROW the dev teams for several of their biggest games (WoW, Diablo and OW (and maybe HS, too? Can't remember)) by 20% during 2019. The axing of employees didn't really target much of the Dev teams, by all reports, and was mostly aimed at support staff and esports teams.

Also, you should look at the wiki page for Blizz. They've actually had quite a few console releases early on in their life (especially when they were named that other company name). Not saying you're incorrect - you're very correct that most of their fame comes from their PC releases. I will say that ports ARE harder to do than most people give them credit for, and often require fairly significant development resources.
02/13/2019 10:18 AMPosted by Linkdead
02/12/2019 03:17 PMPosted by Orrion

Blizzard is not a mobile game company or a console game company. They’re a computer game company and have been for over 20 years.


I'm not gonna get into the argument that this thread is mostly about, because it's emotional people saying angry, emotional things. I just wanted to point out to this wonderful (not sarcastic, just trying to bring some positive emotions in here) that Blizz has actually been a console game company longer than they've been a PC game company. :P


This is so, but the PC world is what shaped them into who they were, and who they were was great.
02/13/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Imperius
There is a learning curve, but every engine is built around the same principles. You can find youtube videos showcasing different engines. It's not easy, but once you know how to use one and mastered it, you can use another one. The problem remains knowing what the engine excels at and what it handles poorly.


Again you can find hundreds of tutorials for learning to use Unreal but it is a general purpose engine. It can be used to make the3d graphics part of a game or an interactive application. But it does not compare to Messiah game engine that is more for mobile gaming and also is a closed software. It covers 3d graphics but also game mechanics. So it's more extensive in term of knowlege needed to master it before programming. As stated before, you clearly don't know anything about programming so that why you are making ignorant statments of the matter. That's why you are the only one who beleves D:I is not a reskin.

You can believe whatever you want, but as all your posts show, You are a stubborn troll who will never admit you are wrong. Nothing is going to change your mind so it is useless that i keep posting.
02/13/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Imperius
There is a learning curve, but every engine is built around the same principles. You can find youtube videos showcasing different engines. It's not easy, but once you know how to use one and mastered it, you can use another one. The problem remains knowing what the engine excels at and what it handles poorly.


Again you can find hundreds of tutorials for learning to use Unreal but it is a general purpose engine. It can be used to make the3d graphics part of a game or an interactive application. But it does not compare to Messiah game engine that is more for mobile gaming and also is a closed software. It covers 3d graphics but also game mechanics. So it's more extensive in term of knowlege needed to master it before programming. As stated before, you clearly don't know anything about programming so that why you are making ignorant statments of the matter. That's why you are the only one who beleves D:I is not a reskin.

You can believe whatever you want, but as all your posts show, You are a stubborn troll who will never admit you are wrong. Nothing is going to change your mind so it is useless that i keep posting.


Unfortunately you're wrong he admitted it once to me.
The likely hood he will admit it again, is very slim so you're kinda right.
By his logic though anything in the past is irrelevant, so maybe you're right.
02/13/2019 10:25 AMPosted by Exuri
02/13/2019 10:18 AMPosted by Linkdead
...

I'm not gonna get into the argument that this thread is mostly about, because it's emotional people saying angry, emotional things. I just wanted to point out to this wonderful (not sarcastic, just trying to bring some positive emotions in here) that Blizz has actually been a console game company longer than they've been a PC game company. :P


This is so, but the PC world is what shaped them into who they were, and who they were was great.


I don't deny that at all. Just stating their roots. I grew up with stuff like the Lost Vikings. That was my era. I played Warcraft Orcs vs Humans on a computer that met the specs for playing it - barely. I still remember putting my 5 and a quarter into a commodore just to play qbert. ;)

All the people that say they were a PC dev first drive me a bit batty. Haha. It's my OCD nature kicking in, I guess? :)
02/13/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Imperius
In games made with Unreal Engine 3 mist looked unrealistic on purpose.


"Unrealistic mist in Unreal Engine 3". Who would've think?

02/13/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Imperius
Again.. what does it prove? Look at some footage on how an engine is used...


You're nagging the subject really, I'll cut to the chase;
NetEase used the same engine with their other games which is okay in the book. Yet that caused people to just find similarities to other NetEase games which they did. From doing many other diablo and WoW clones also being a Blizzard partner NetEase just had the right tool and premade code for the job. That's why Blizzard outsourcing it at the first place. They used premade code for interaction here and there, and it sticks out.
Doesn't matter if development claims it has been made from scratch; all Diablo-clones followed a similar formula for years; they can not break their own design.

People just frustrated about it being a mobile game and given their fame, mobile games are not really user interface savvy. When people looked at the other games they saw very similar features and being aware it's an oversaturated market that doesn't give space for innovation, they started a backlash. It doesn't matter if they intended to do a reskin of another game or not, mobile market is so filled with games something somewhere will overlap with one another and will catch attention. They don't even have to try, nor they had to lie.

D:I doesn't really bring innovative stuff to the mobile besides tweaked with HD graphics for PC emulation; yet it doesn't matter if it did also. It doesn't matter if it's a reskin or not. Biggest concerns are; microtransactions, compatibility (emulated on Nintendo Switch?) and data trade on advertisements. Until those three questions are answered this kinda outcries will linger and will leave the more important questions at the shade.
02/13/2019 10:28 AMPosted by Chipoodle
02/13/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Imperius
There is a learning curve, but every engine is built around the same principles. You can find youtube videos showcasing different engines. It's not easy, but once you know how to use one and mastered it, you can use another one. The problem remains knowing what the engine excels at and what it handles poorly.


Again you can find hundreds of tutorials for learning to use Unreal but it is a general purpose engine. It can be used to make the3d graphics part of a game or an interactive application. But it does not compare to Messiah game engine that is more for mobile gaming and also is a closed software. It covers 3d graphics but also game mechanics. So it's more extensive in term of knowlege needed to master it before programming. As stated before, you clearly don't know anything about programming so that why you are making ignorant statments of the matter. That's why you are the only one who beleves D:I is not a reskin.

You can believe whatever you want, but as all your posts show, You are a stubborn troll who will never admit you are wrong. Nothing is going to change your mind so it is useless that i keep posting.


If anything Messiah is among the very best Engines on mobile and offers a vast array of possibilities for developers...

The Messiah engine is used more and more for various mobile games, not only is it versatile, but it is superior in many areas like lighting, rendering and mapping.

You can find articles about it and how the West was absolutely stunned by how good the engine is.

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