Do D3 fans really believe that D1/D2 are complicated?

General Discussion
I saw a lot of people saying that D1/D2 focused more in hardcore games and that D3 is more accessible. I never understood. How someone can think that D1/D2 is complicated?

If you look to David Brevik interview in GDC at 43:30 https://youtu.be/VscdPA6sUkc?t=2602

He said that din't liked the 25 minutes of character creation and that D1 was designed to be an very simple and fast paced RPG. And that there are an "mother test", that you mother should be able to play the game.

The attributes on D1 was very simplistic, very easy to grasp and intuitive, the spells too. If you compare D1 with other 90's RPG's like TES Daggerfall or Might & Magic VI, D1 is very easy and accessible. I while child, easily completed D1 but never managed to beat any M&M game. Only completed M&M VI-VIII as an adult, almost 2 decades later. Even the dungeon layouts are too simplistic. Here is an dungeon layout of M&M VI ( http://www.the-spoiler.com/RPG/New.World.Computing/might..magic.6.1/mm6.html#ds_tv )

I an at moment playing an 1999 mmorpg(everquest 1) and honestly, took some time to get used to UI and certain things but in general D1/D2 are much more simple and intuitive than rpg game for the period that i've played.

But D1/D2 has the basic elements of what you expect of an RPG game. D3 doesn't have.
Usually D3 fans like to claim that D2 only offered the illusion of choice because each class has a certain spec that is the best at whatever (e.g. smiter is the best uber killer). They say that if you don't spend all your skill/stat points in the prescribed way, you're wasting them. This is true of just about any game though. There's always an ideal setup that will have more damage or more life or more speed, better crowd control.
As someone who's play a ton of both D2 and D3, I'm of the opinion that both games have plenty of opportunity to "go your own way" and you don't have to follow the so-called best build to become extremely powerful. Both games have great items and useless items.

D2 is slightly more complicated in my humble opinion because you aren't going to be able to get your ideal setup for just about any build on your own. High runes and certain gg gear are super rare and if you want to acquire them in anything resembling a reasonable amount of play time you must trade for them. D3, OTOH, you just farm until you get your exact items. Sure, it's gonna take a while to farm a whole D3 character's worth of items, but nowhere near what it would take to farm, say, a Last Wish runeword by yourself in D2(assuming you don't bot).
03/11/2019 05:04 PMPosted by ChangBooster
Usually D3 fans like to claim that D2 only offered the illusion of choice because each class has a certain spec that is the best at whatever (e.g. smiter is the best uber killer)


On D2 at least :
- Best setup to do A, best setup to do B, best setup to do C(...), there are no the "best build", there are "better build for an task)
- An sub optimal build is slight lesser powerful than a optimal build for a task and often come with advantages. On D1 has 0,001% of the power

03/11/2019 05:04 PMPosted by ChangBooster
High runes and certain gg gear are super rare and if you want to acquire them in anything resembling a reasonable amount of play time you must trade for them


I don't think that time demanding and complexity are the same thing.
03/11/2019 05:28 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I don't think that time demanding and complexity are the same thing.

My point was that you need to at least be somewhat savvy to the D2 economy so you know when you find a valuable item that you can trade for what you actually need. Like, I never saw a Ber or Zod rune drop. You can't target farm Enigma.
03/11/2019 04:42 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I saw a lot of people saying that D1/D2 focused more in hardcore games and that D3 is more accessible. I never understood. How someone can think that D1/D2 is complicated?


alot of the time this is just idiots trying everything they can to defend D3. they point out the previous games' "complication" as a downside.

some people do it the other way, and mock the previous 2 games for not being complex enough, they often site the D2 stat problem where everyone essentially dumps their points in vitality after getting enough strength, as one example.

You can safely ignore these goofs, because their prime goal is just to ensure D3 does not or rather DID not improve, whether they admit it or not. They blather on about complexity or simplicity in regards to all the games, but the first 2 games in these peoples' minds got virtually everything wrong, while D3 did virtually everything right.
03/11/2019 06:01 PMPosted by Shurgosa
You can safely ignore these goofs, because their prime goal is just to ensure D3 does not or rather DID not improve, whether they admit it or not.


Well said. You have no idea how many D3 fanboy out there acting like long time D2 or Diablo series fans while clearly they never played the previous games. All I saw was them trying to provoke discussion by empty points.

03/11/2019 04:42 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I saw a lot of people saying that D1/D2 focused more in hardcore games and that D3 is more accessible. I never understood. How someone can think that D1/D2 is complicated?


Finally you caught a valid point for discussing. 'gratz.

edit: wow downvotes.
03/11/2019 04:42 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I saw a lot of people saying that D1/D2 focused more in hardcore games and that D3 is more accessible. I never understood. How someone can think that D1/D2 is complicated?


First of all, "hardcore" and "complicated" aren't synonyms.

You're playing EverQuest at the moment. Back in 1999, that was a hardcore game. But it wasn't a complicated game, for the most part. "Hardcore" with respect to gaming usually means "takes a lot of time." It doesn't mean "it takes a lot of time to learn." For instance, when EverQuest launched the first expansion, Ruins of Kunark, it quite literally took weeks to months to level from 51 to 60. It took 3 solid weeks of 12 hour days grinding in the best locations at the time to go from 59 to 60 (how do I know that, you ask? Because I did it, that's why). That's not complicated, but it IS hardcore.

So your post is off to a bad start because you're comparing terms that don't mean the same thing.

Your post is also off to a bad start because you're grouping D1 and D2 together and trying to compare them jointly to something else. You can't do that - they're different games, and D2 is obviously a much more complicated AND hardcore-oriented game than D1 is.
Compared to its predecessors, D3 actually is more accessible. Meaning the game play in general is friendlier and easier for a wider variety of players.

Depth is not the same thing as ease of play. D2 had some depth certainly. But it also had a different design. And for someone who maybe has only played D3 and gets introduced to D2 or D1 for the first time, it may seem daunting, even stupid with some of the things we had to deal with but didn't know any better back then. There are a LOT of things I don't miss about D2 for example. And many things I do miss.

Blizzard aimed to make the game more accessible for a reason. Easier to play means more people to play it, which means more copies sold. Simple as that.
03/09/2019 06:02 PMPosted by Orrion
I'm sorry, but RPGs shouldn't require you to be an expert on everything to play them effectively. That's honestly how PoE feels - I refer to it as the hardcore gamer's ARPG. Which is fine as far as it goes, but I can rarely dedicate the time these days to make significant progress in it.


03/09/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
Lol. It just has lots of rpg elements that each have lots of choices and customization. It requires thought and a willingness to learn and adapt. I am far from a hardcore gamer, I just make one character per season. I believe PoE is the standard for what a modern RPG should be. Everything else is sacrificing quality and depth to appeal to more people that may not have the time or intelligence for a rpg. They cave to jealousy and entitlement to maximize profits and along the way, they make it less of a game.


While I agree some RPG’s are more complicated, I think the reasons some people hate them are shameful. I think it’s downright pathetic how so much these days is simplified so drastically all for the sake of inclusion and profit. It’s not like there isn’t enough mainstream trash out there already for these goofs.
03/11/2019 06:22 PMPosted by Orrion
First of all, "hardcore" and "complicated" aren't synonyms.


Doesn't prevent people from thinking so. D2 for me was just a middle ground for hardcore and casual play. Also gratz on reaching 20k posts on the next reply.
I won't say D1, D2 or D3 are complicated. D2 had a steeper learning curve compared to D1 and D3, that is because D2 has more varied items.

D3 is very easily accessible because all the build thinking is mostly done for your with sets. Anyone can come to the conclusion that sets that do thousands of % damage compared to forming a few pieces of non-set legendaries to see that the non-set fares much worse. The gap between sets and non-sets is way too huge.

I miss the sandbox feel of D2, D3 is just builds on rails.

The Devs need only look at Titan Quest and Grimm Dawn to see how build diversity works.
To me, i never touched D1, but i did play D2 a fair amount.

In my play time i never once got any good drops that could be considered BIS, or "good" charms or even high runes (besides the guaranteed one) per character. I had multiple characters at 98 (the grind was far too boring to get that last one). I was basically forced to do the purchase on best in slot gear for one of my characters, and didn't feel good about it.

I do feel D2 is much more complicated than D3. In D2, it felt like it was very easy to mis-skill and basically you have ruined that character entirely. Sure you get 3 redos, but that was it. After that your stuck.

D3 is much simpler, in terms of the average person can pick it up, and can get decently geared up and get most of what the game has to offer without having to do too much looking stuff up. If they have screwed up their build, its very easy to fix the mistake without having to completely start over as many times as you want. I have thoroughly enjoyed my D3 experience more than D2. I have played since the beta and have seen the Highs and lows of Auction House days, and all the exploits from the past.

All in all, IMO, D3 is much simplier than D2 in just about all aspects.
03/11/2019 08:28 PMPosted by Thphlstr
Sure you get 3 redos, but that was it. After that your stuck.


There's a recipe for respec'in your skill build in D2 now. You never get stuck if you play smart.
03/11/2019 05:33 PMPosted by ChangBooster
03/11/2019 05:28 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I don't think that time demanding and complexity are the same thing.

My point was that you need to at least be somewhat savvy to the D2 economy so you know when you find a valuable item that you can trade for what you actually need. Like, I never saw a Ber or Zod rune drop. You can't target farm Enigma.
Disregarding the economy, D2 was "complicated" or "had depth" because you couldn't easily find these godly items as a solo player. But damage, elemental damage and resistances, attack rating and skill bonuses all being balanced with a player resistance system that had increasing returns... and the rules for creating items made selecting items much more difficult than in D3. In D3, its pretty self explanatory to get rid of anything that doesn't have a socket if it can have a socket. If it can have crit but doesn't get rid of it. Everything should have primary stat and if it isn't a jewelry slot it should have vitality also.

That really doesn't exist in D2 unless you are playing online with trading and the game was good without that.

So in that sense D2 had more depth but that didn't necessarily make it complicated.

What did make it complicated was breakpoints on faster hit recovery/block rate and faster cast rate or increased attack speed. It was a limitation of technology but the fact that more stat wouldn't necessarily lead to more gain did make it complicated.

Secondary to that... here is an example, dexterity gives attack rating but is a terrible way to get attack rating. That is something hard to learn by yourself. Some stats were obscure. And I could go on. But I won't because that isn't what made D2 good.... Its what I outlined in first paragraph that made it good.
If anybody finds D2 and D1 'complicated', it's time for them to find a new hobby.
03/11/2019 06:01 PMPosted by Shurgosa
they often site the D2 stat problem where everyone essentially dumps their points in vitality after getting enough strength, as one example.


Yes, the min STR to wear gear and rest into VIT is awful on D2, but at least they tried to make an attribute system

03/11/2019 06:22 PMPosted by Orrion
You're playing EverQuest at the moment. Back in 1999, that was a hardcore game. But it wasn't a complicated game, for the most part. "Hardcore" with respect to gaming usually means "takes a lot of time." It doesn't mean "it takes a lot of time to learn." For instance, when EverQuest launched the first expansion, Ruins of Kunark, it quite literally took weeks to months to level from 51 to 60. It took 3 solid weeks of 12 hour days grinding in the best locations at the time to go from 59 to 60 (how do I know that, you ask? Because I did it, that's why). That's not complicated, but it IS hardcore.


Thanks. You are right.

EQ in 2019 is far less time consuming than in 1999.

But i don't think that time consuming and hardcore are the same thing.

Who is the most HC dungeon?

Dungeon A - Straight line, and 3 bosses that requires 60 people spamming the same rotation for almost an half of hour until he dies and each one have only 0,01% of chance of dropping an piece of gear that you want.

Dungeon B - This dungeon http://www.the-spoiler.com/RPG/New.World.Computing/might..magic.6.1/mm6.html#ds_tv

The dungeon is very big, so you will need to rest, to rest you need supply, there are a chance of being attacked while sleeping, the time passes when you sleep and it affects the world and some quests have time, hordes and hordes of enemies, including Guardian of VARN that is immune to everything except physical damage, making heavily spell based parties dependent on few spells like Sharpmetal and Implosion that deals physical damage or buffs like Haste that has tradeoffs, when the effect is over, your party suffers penalties until you rest, you need to search codes very well hidden, can take a lot of damage from traps and there are enemies dealing incredible 20D5+20 damage in a type that can't be resisted(i got some party members 3HKilled) and the "verticality" means that even with a map, orientate in this dungeon is insanely hard. I got lost many times.

IMHO the "dungeon B" is much harder and much more hardcore. The dungeon "A" is just time consuming. I got lost in many times in many dungeons playing M&M VI and Daggerfall, but never got lost on D1/D2... I could never beat M&M VI-VIII without an online guide. Dark Souls is often considered an "hardcore" game, but his dungeon layouts aren't exactly hard as 20+ yo games and there are much less variables to consider on combat.

03/11/2019 08:53 PMPosted by UngivenFame
So in that sense D2 had more depth but that didn't necessarily make it complicated.


Well said. That is exactly my main point.
On D2 at least :- Best setup to do A, best setup to do B, best setup to do C(...), there are no the "best build", there are "better build for an task)- An sub optimal build is slight lesser powerful than a optimal build for a task and often come with advantages. On D1 has 0,001% of the power

That's easy to say when D2 only has 3 Difficulty levels while D3 has 17 difficulty levels and then up to GR 150 in difficulty levels
Lets see how true your statement is when you give D2 the same difficulty levels as D3 and whether there are any builds in D2 capable of doing T13 let alone a GR 150
It's easy to say you can play anything on D2 when the difficulty level in D2 doesn't even reach T1 in D3.
I also can play anything I like if I don't go past T1 in D3 which is a higher difficulty than hell difficulty in D2
03/12/2019 02:14 AMPosted by Steve
I also can play anything I like if I don't go past T1 in D3 which is a higher difficulty than hell difficulty in D2


T1 have immune monsters and defense values set up for them?

03/12/2019 02:14 AMPosted by Steve
That's easy to say when D2 only has 3 Difficulty levels while D3 has 17 difficulty levels and then up to GR 150 in difficulty levels


So if D2 were to have only one end game model. Yeah sure. Still constant values would do a better job than massed multipliers since there are shortcuts if you know what you are doing.
Also let me remind you, once D3 developers tried to introduce crushing blow% mechanics to D3 in a PTR. It obliterated everything because none of the monsters had any resistance to physical.
03/12/2019 02:21 AMPosted by naksiloth
03/12/2019 02:14 AMPosted by Steve
I also can play anything I like if I don't go past T1 in D3 which is a higher difficulty than hell difficulty in D2


T1 have immune monsters and defense values set up for them?

03/12/2019 02:14 AMPosted by Steve
That's easy to say when D2 only has 3 Difficulty levels while D3 has 17 difficulty levels and then up to GR 150 in difficulty levels


So if D2 were to have only one end game model. Yeah sure. Still constant values would do a better job than massed multipliers since there are shortcuts if you know what you are doing.
Also let me remind you, once D3 developers tried to introduce crushing blow% mechanics to D3 in a PTR. It obliterated everything because none of the monsters had any resistance to physical.

The point I was trying to make was that they are comparing apples and oranges, Yes D2 you have a lot more choices of what you can use but it doesn't try to compare it with same difficulty with same difficulty. Give D2 the equivalent of T13 to start with and lets see if you can wear anything and get past it and then go to GR 150 equivalent and see if your d2 characters can even hurt the simplest monster and not get 1 shotted
03/12/2019 03:46 AMPosted by Steve
GR 150 equivalent and see if your d2 characters can even hurt the simplest monster


Do you know what Crushing Blow% is or are you throwing an argument for the sake of it? That single affix broke the D3 and de-throned crit ratings in PTR. I'm not quite sure if you realized what that does. It would tackle all the game balance and would bring us back to square one if it was ever implemented because crit ratings would be worthless.

D2 has an equivalent of highest difficulty scale also. It's "players 8" or "players #" setup and still good synergistic builds with high tier gear breeze through it solo in Hell difficulty, despite monsters gaining immunities and resistances. Given Hell difficulty quadruples the health of monsters, players 8 actually scales close to T3 at the terms of health multiplier.
https://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Player_Settings
Monster Power idea back in vanilla came from this scaling actually.

If you wanna know, someone did a scaling for damage output and only 2 builds at the terms of dps came out supreme. One being a Lightning Sorc and other being Fireclaw Druid I think. I'd like to imagine Necro follows close third.

03/12/2019 03:46 AMPosted by Steve
and not get 1 shotted


That can be the only problem, theoretically Attract and Corpse Explosion (Necro abilities can appear as charged skills, available for all classes) would do a quick work. Actually CE would almost one shot everything while CB% would sweep away massive chunks of health. Only if we're talking about D2 damage numbers are scaled about the same.

Still empty to try and deflect the blame of incompetent design when games aren't even at the same plateau. D3 didn't even need that amount of difficulty scale.
The damage you deal progresses linearly multiplicative and you can be momentarily invincible in D3; while in D2 you have to debuff in combat and balance the utilities to survive. Even if you bring D2 at the damage numbers of T13 that approach wouldn't change.

Otherwise asking to survive trillion raw damage hitting GR150 monsters of D3 with D2's limited equipment and no-choices of invincibility or cheat-death passive is nothing but straws. Waste of time.

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