Should there be a paragon system in Diablo 4?

General Discussion
03/24/2019 09:33 PMPosted by Cobaltus
03/23/2019 09:15 PMPosted by HoldMyBeer49
I really like it but I understand why some don't.
having some form of progression (beyond gearing up) at level cap is a big hook for me, no matter how trivial it may seem

Same here. I enjoy earning character levels and then limitless (and shared) paragon levels in this game even if the latter just turns into +Main Stat after 800. It's a bit boring to me to hit a hard maximum level and then only have gear to grind afterwards which is one of the reasons I rarely raided in WoW.

I think it would be a good solution to have a Character Specific Attribute System in which you can spend points into from level 1 to max level, running parallel to some sort of Account-wide Paragon System (even if that Paragon System only give you access to cosmetics).

The amount of XP required to reach max character level would exponentially increase, while the XP required to reach the next Paragon Level could remain static, so that when you play with a high end char, you would gain a Paragon Level Up like all 15 minutes or so, which can be satisfying for casual players, because they reached another benchmark, which would be an incentive for them to keep playing, even if you would just gain cosmetics for it.

Also I think that the Character Specific Attribute System and the Account-wide Paragon System should run parallel so that you even get Paragon XP while you haven't reached max character level. That would allow the leveling process to take longer as in D3, but reaching max character level would be required anymore to contribute to Paragon XP.

Leveling to max character level in D3 is too short, but also not very satisfying, because everything that you did on the journey becomes obsolete once you hit max character level. I hope that in D4 there will be more focus on the journey and that the journey becomes more rewarding.

That could be done by for example making legendary items much more rare (but obviously not as rare as in D3 vanilla!), but also by allowing you to upgrade the legendaries you found on lower levels to the next tier, so they match your character level (similar to how it works in Median XL).
Considering there isn't going to ever be a Diablo 4 I say... no.
03/25/2019 12:13 AMPosted by NINEGRAVES
In D4 it should be their top priority to design the game in a way that makes botting and nolifing obsolete while still offering lots of game features. When thats given they can think about all the rest.
Yup. And we should live in a world where all people are equal, where money no longer exists and there is no incentive to pursue a high-paying career, and where people who work relentlessly are rewarded by society in exactly the same measure as people who never do any work at all.

Oh, yeah...and where there is world peace, and no world hunger.
Paragon levels were implemented justo to disguise a poor leveling and itemization process at first.

Prior to RoS, no one was priorizing "end game" objectives like today just because end game was realy hard to get trough.

Ok, there was just one option to "end game" in vanilla, i agree. It just says how D3 was badly designed fron start. Paragon level, rifts, RNG, bla bla bla... Bad choices, just that, no more than that...

I realy love Diablo games, D1 was my 1st. Skiped D2, gone to D3 for years. But D2 bacame my favorite soon as i met it...
03/25/2019 12:02 AMPosted by StoneOld
The jealous, or selfish, or egotistical, or unimaginative players on this forum have no idea how to "fix Paragon" other than to call for a "Paragon cap," to deprive other players of character strength, because they can't be that strong yet.


Thanks, I had a good laugh.
Paragon was a band-aid to cover the terrible leveling system that D3 implemented. I would HOPE that D4 wouldn't repeat the same mistake and instead implement a leveling system that rewards the player the whole time they are building their character instead of going the MMO route of leveling just to then start playing the game.
As one of the biggest critics to the D3 paragon system, this is how I would prefer it in D4:

- Low variance time-spend-in-the-game rewards (aka paragon) should offer very little improvement/bonus to one's character/account (like 1/100 of the current situation in D3)

- Such rewards should not influence the competition if such exists, because these are extremely prone to abuse by botting/account sharing

- It would be more logical to bound such rewards with special quests and cosmetic items, instead of character stats, but I would be fine with both as long as the above two rules are met

- And please change the name PARAGON to something else, I hate it enough already
03/25/2019 12:05 PMPosted by Tetra
Paragon was a band-aid to cover the terrible leveling system that D3 implemented. I would HOPE that D4 wouldn't repeat the same mistake and instead implement a leveling system that rewards the player the whole time they are building their character instead of going the MMO route of leveling just to then start playing the game.

Yeah, the journey should matter.
That the journey doesn't matters in D3 is one of the bigger issues I have with D3.

Attribute points, points for passive skills and skill points (for a Last Epoch like skill system) that you can not just reset too easily (like only with a cost) and tiered legendaries that you can upgrade to higher versions with increased required level (like it works in Median XL) would fix this issue in D4, because what you did and collected during your journey wouldn't be obsolete once you reached max level.
If they are indeed working on the next game I would think if they have any sense at all that any possible “paragon “ system would be isolated from character power. However that being said they might scrap the whole system. If they do that I think it quite likely that they would throw all the cosmetic stuff in a micro transactions store with prices to match their greediness.
I would love to see an advancement system that is more than just leveling for character progression. The idea that when you are done leveling to either max level or the level you have chosen you create a new character and do it again. I do like the idea of still playing that same character. I would love such a special advancement system that would still allow that character to make advancement and give me a good reason to play such a character.

With that being said I would want a vast improvement over the paragon system that we have right now. This current 2.0 would have to probably morph into a 4.0 or beyond just to cover my needs.
03/25/2019 01:37 PMPosted by clueso

Attribute points, points for passive skills and skill points (for a Last Epoch like skill system) that you can not just reset too easily (like only with a cost) and tiered legendaries that you can upgrade to higher versions with increased required level (like it works in Median XL) would fix this issue in D4, because what you did and collected during your journey wouldn't be obsolete once you reached max level.
You could upgrade unique items in regular Diablo 2. Shaftstop, unique Mesh Armor (exceptional quality) could be upgraded to Boneweave (elite quality) for more than double the defense and 60 more strength req. Does MXL do something other than that? Does it scale the affixes too? I don't know how much I like that. That's one of the things about D2 itemization I really like is how low level affixes/unique items could scale well into later game. I'd like to get even go more in that direction by getting rid of resistance penalty is nightmare and hell and not scaling those so much.

Then I wanted to talk about respeccing. One thing I hate about Grim Dawn is how respeccing is so easily done that you level characters with different skill set up and then respec into the build you want after a certain point. To avoid that situation while still allowing for experimentation and some flexibility, I think you should be able to buy back the last three skill points in a skill, but if you invested more than that, the only way to unlearn the skill would be through a drop like the token or respec quest in D2.
D3's take at the paragon system was flawed shortly after it was released. Mostly in part that it is too easy to get all the choices maxxed out and your left with just 5 main stat each time.

A proper AA system wouldn't have this issue and allow for greater customization. There needed to be more choices and no limits on said choices and instead make each have diminishing returns. There was so many stat options for the paragon system that it could of been good but they limited it to 4 and split them up with 50 pt caps.

But the game does need some form of continued progression outside of gear alone. You need something to show that you are getting a little more powerful even if you can't get the gear to drop. D2 was ok on this since getting to 99 took forever even with constant cow runs since you started getting an XP penalty as you closed in to 99 making a level take longer and longer. But the join when you get that extra skill point and stat points made you keep grinding for it.
If D4 needs near infinite paragon levels, then that means it won't be a sustainable model where you can backtrack freely. Linear progression without caps, simply hit players up to timesinks only.

03/26/2019 07:17 AMPosted by Dragonmaster
but they limited it to 4 and split them up with 50 pt caps.


Same old straw. Increasing the cap further with this staged stat allocation would only prolong the time you can dump points on main stats. Removing stat allocation phases would make any other attribute besides mainstats, insignificant. Why would you dump on anything besides crit ratings and mainstats when damage is that important at the terms of time trial based so-called "progress"?
03/26/2019 12:07 AMPosted by UngivenFame
You could upgrade unique items in regular Diablo 2. Shaftstop, unique Mesh Armor (exceptional quality) could be upgraded to Boneweave (elite quality) for more than double the defense and 60 more strength req. Does MXL do something other than that? Does it scale the affixes too? I don't know how much I like that. That's one of the things about D2 itemization I really like is how low level affixes/unique items could scale well into later game. I'd like to get even go more in that direction by getting rid of resistance penalty is nightmare and hell and not scaling those so much.

There is a difference in how upgrading works in Diablo 2 and Median XL.

In D2 when you upgrade a unique item to the next tier, it would only increase the base stats like defense/armor or damage as well as the attribute and level requirements.

In Median XL, upgrading a unique item to the next tier increases the affixes as well. So for example when you have a Tier 1 unique with +1-2 to all skills, a Tier 4 unique could have +4-5 to all skills. In D2 only the base item gets an upgrade, but not the affixes.

I would like if D4 also has some sort of Tier System for items.
Let's say you have 10 or 11 tiers.
T0 = required level 1
T1 = required level 10
T2 = required level 20
...
T9 = required level 90
T10 = required level 1000 (which also is max level)

If you could upgrade a legendary that you find on level 40 (eventually at the cost of the D4 equivalent of Forgotten Souls and Death Breaths), up to a Tier 10 item, the journey to max level would be meaningful again. That also assumes that legendary items would not drop as much in D4 as they do in D3 RoS (but that they are also not so rare as in D3 vanilla).

EDIT: you also can make it so that some items that otherwise would become too powerful at higher levels if the bonuses scaled linearly, would have diminishing returns on some of their affixes if necessary. This also would allow to create legendaries that are very useful in the early game, but become less useful later on, even if you upgrade them to the highest tier.

And some of the more powerful legendaries eventually could only start to drop as Tier 8, Tier 9 or even Tier 10 items, which means that you had to reach a high level before they even start to drop, which means that you could not simply farm on low level chars to get these items and upgrade them.
03/26/2019 09:41 AMPosted by naksiloth
If D4 needs near infinite paragon levels, then that means it won't be a sustainable model where you can backtrack freely. Linear progression without caps, simply hit players up to timesinks only.

Infinite Paragon Levels by themselves are not the main problem. The core of the problem is the power you get from them.

So you could have infinite, account-wide Paragon Levels and it wouldn't be problem if you would only unlock cosmetics, but gain no increase in power from them.
03/26/2019 09:41 AMPosted by naksiloth
If D4 needs near infinite paragon levels, then that means it won't be a sustainable model where you can backtrack freely. Linear progression without caps, simply hit players up to timesinks only.

03/26/2019 07:17 AMPosted by Dragonmaster
but they limited it to 4 and split them up with 50 pt caps.


Same old straw. Increasing the cap further with this staged stat allocation would only prolong the time you can dump points on main stats. Removing stat allocation phases would make any other attribute besides mainstats, insignificant. Why would you dump on anything besides crit ratings and mainstats when damage is that important at the terms of time trial based so-called "progress"?


If your a dh and have 36% cdr the extra cdr avaible from paragons to get to 37.5% for perma vengence would outweigh maimstat and crit.

I actually had the idea a while back they should increase the caps on the individual paragon spending trees. But still limit the allocation to 200 (after 800 still would be mainstat only) this way if a build requires a breakpoint either via cdr or ias. You had wiggle room at the loss of some points into another category. This way gear that rolled wrong could still be used till something better drops.

Im sure there are builds out there that would come out of the wood work if there was some lee way.
03/26/2019 01:08 PMPosted by clueso
03/26/2019 09:41 AMPosted by naksiloth
If D4 needs near infinite paragon levels, then that means it won't be a sustainable model where you can backtrack freely. Linear progression without caps, simply hit players up to timesinks only.

Infinite Paragon Levels by themselves are not the main problem. The core of the problem is the power you get from them.

So you could have infinite, account-wide Paragon Levels and it wouldn't be problem if you would only unlock cosmetics, but gain no increase in power from them.


If the power that comes from them is with diminishing returns which is a soft cap then it would be fine. But also there would be a way to do it as long as you had other juicy things to spend points on. Where you would have an even level of survivability stats to offensive stats. Even furthering the power of your chosen skills could be part of that system.
Diablo 4 should be like Diablo 3, but with a cow level.
The core problem behind Paragon has always been that it was thrown together after the fact to band-aid the poor design decision to copy WoW's trivialized leveling tutorial model.

Obviously, any hypothetical D4 would need a character-sided progression system that ties to leveling in the same way that basically every other ARPG does. D3 just isn't the place to go looking for or using as an examples in system design.
Nope, make the game more item drive like Diablo 2 was. If account bound items make a return or trading is disabled I won't even bother with Diablo 4.

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