Should there be a paragon system in Diablo 4?

General Discussion
The thing with Paragon is that they provide underwhelming reward. I prefer "smaller quantity, but higher quality" products.

The last thing we need is 150 difficulties, thousands of Paragon and thousands of damage multiplier. Sometimes, "less is more".

Whenever you gain a Paragon level, it feels empty. There's not much achievement in it. We don't have to go back to D2, but if they add "paragon", I hope that they are impactful and fun to get. In D3, it's like "oh", then you put it into main stats.

Anyway, Diablo 3 had many good ideas, but they were implemented poorly.

Endless Dungeon is something that many players would want, but just not the way it is implemented. GR is a joke of an endless dungeon.

Endless Waves (Trials) is something that many players would want, but they butchered its implementation in D3.

Huge randomized dungeon (Rift) is something that players would want, but its implementation is beyond poor. I mean, what's the point of a "10 floor dungeon" if there's nothing at the end? It defies RPG logic.

The list goes on and on. D4 could have anything, but if it is implemented poorly, then we're not out of the wood. I can guarantee you that endless waves done properly would be a huge hit. Endless difficulty implemented the right way would provide huge replayability if done properly. Sets done properly would be loved by most players. Itemization done properly would actually be fun.
Well, it varies from what you're calling parangon.

- Same as DIII:
No from me dawg. It's mindless, boring as hell. And after reaching a certain cap, you feel like you're not making any progress. (For a normal player like me, I get bored after 1000+. No build diversity, same gameplay.)

Just grinding (or botting, let's face it, there is a lot of botters...)for +main stats make me feel like: "Meh."

- Variation of DIII:
Many good ideas have been proposed on this thread. Make each char have his own paragon level sounds good.

But I would love something kinda POEish, with deeper building by those points. I play ARPGs for having fun and feel my char progressing, testing some builds, and find the most conveniant/fun to play.
Way too soon for these questions. We have no idea what sort of systems D4 will have. Will paragon even be needed? Will there be systems that would make paragon redundant? We literally know nothing about D4 at this point.

Ask questions that are relevant to virtually any rpg. I.e. Will we actually have damage types that matter this time around? See the original D3 intro videos for what I'm talking about.
Paragon shouldnt be implemented in the form it is now.

I think its basicly a bad idea to have a primary stat increase infinetly.

Also there shouldnt be a dificulty setting increasing infinetly. There should simply be one ultimate difficulty at the end. And from there on its Skill>gear. Sure this is a game about loot. And loot should make a huge difference. But you should never reach a point where you can fart at diablo and he insta dies.

For example take the butch fight from D3. In my opinion the best bossfight in the game. The arena is awesome and the increasing amount of fire brings a lot of tension. Also you need to dodge his overhead slam or he oneshots you. Well at least it was like that once upon a time.

If you can choose whatever difficulty there is, then you will eliminate every single personality of the game. Like it is now. Chose normal setting and you can kill diablo with 1 hit. Choose Tier 13 a normal zombie can literaly take a million hits.

Ofc this depends on youre gear. But as you can see. This state should never even occur. A zombie is a zombie and diablo is diablo.

As soon as you reach max lv you should be able to chose an extra hard difficulty. And no matter what gear you have you should still have to watch youre moves.

Almost like it was in Vanilla d3. It wasnt perfect. (Those bloody sandwasps). But man it was at least challenging.
Since they cannot stop botting, nope.
are you effin st*pid? D4? Get Real!

downvoting.. booo!
03/23/2019 08:51 PMPosted by Omnicore
After reading these forums for years it seems the vocal minority are against a paragon system that is infinitely scaled, or does more than just put +5 into main stat endlessly.
There is plenty of potential for a paragon type system after hitting level 99 in Diablo4 but for God's sake, make it interesting. Main stat is "yawn" after 800.
Some may say that paragon is unnecessary if the difficulty levels are implemented in a different way, and that does not include 13 difficulty levels.
How should paragon be revisited for Diablo 4? I'm interested to hear what people think about the system that Blizzard seems determined to keep as they have said that those who play the game more should be rewarded more.


Say what? Diablo 4?

Surely you meant Diablo Immortal.

There's no such thing as a new PC Diablo game... If there's one, it's going to be out "when it's ready". Considering that hasn't been said yet, you're looking at 10 years, as per Blizzard's snail speed development process.

Ah cheer up, I'm just kidding! (I'm really not kidding).

:D
If paragon is finite (preferably per character), unlocks visuals, unlocks stash and character slots (as an alternative to direct purchase), is attainable in a reasonable time, and last, it doesn't grant a massive bonus to characters... then yes.
As long as there's an option to increase stash as we level, I'm fine with it xD
Alternate advancement past the level cap I think is HUGE for ARPGs longevity... With that being said, D3 paragon is very simplistic which makes it not fun.
03/27/2019 02:48 PMPosted by Raserei
Alternate advancement past the level cap I think is HUGE for ARPGs longevity... With that being said, D3 paragon is very simplistic which makes it not fun.


It's not. D2 didn't have one, and lasted way longer than this game with endless expgrind.
03/23/2019 09:09 PMPosted by Omnicore
LOL.

Fair enough. But you could argue that paragon gives us something to do after reaching supposed cap of 99?


Paragon was originally added as an endgame progression stop gap which they then expanded while adding real endgame content.
I would propose that the just release the game with quality endgame content and skip the Paragon levels.
I think paragon has some pros and cons, but it cannot be THEE system. It needs to have a cap, and it needs to be more intuitive and feature more choices.

A revamped paragon system was my number 1 request for D3, unfortunately we never got it :(
Infinite paragon = no buy!

I'll go one step further to make it simpler for the devs to comprehend: any infinitely scaling power system which is purely a function of invested time = no buy.
03/27/2019 02:48 PMPosted by Raserei
Alternate advancement past the level cap I think is HUGE for ARPGs longevity... With that being said, D3 paragon is very simplistic which makes it not fun.

I agree, but progression can also come in other forms than additional power via an attribute point dump like D3's Paragon System.

Progression past the level cap can come in form of:
° finding very rare and powerful items (but the gap between the best-in-slot item for your build and the next best options should be as big as in D3, where the can be 800% more damage with the BiS item compared to the next best ones) that you have to hunt for
° finding rare components that you can upgrade your items with
° getting rare power-ups that only drop from endgame activities like challenges or bosses, that increase your attributes or that give additional (active or passive) skill points, etc
° cosmetics that unlock the further you progress in paragon system of some sort that only gives you more cosmetics
° etc ...

... but we have to agree that at a certain point it has to come to an end. Sure, a Paragon System that only gives you access to cosmetics could go on, even after you have unlocked all cosmetics, but it still shouldn't give you power.
no. paragon and runes kill build diversity. move to d2 or poe skill tree. maybe not as crazy as poe. but every character of each class is the same with the paragon/rune system. if stats/damage/skills come from gear then everyone will use the same builds again. ugh
03/27/2019 03:05 PMPosted by Alecta
03/27/2019 02:48 PMPosted by Raserei
Alternate advancement past the level cap I think is HUGE for ARPGs longevity... With that being said, D3 paragon is very simplistic which makes it not fun.


It's not. D2 didn't have one, and lasted way longer than this game with endless expgrind.


D2 technically did though. Leveling past 60/70 was D2's form of AA since you get hit with an XP penalty on gains as you get closer to 99. Each level was basically a synergy bonus and a few stat points but getting to 99 took a while on its own. Add on to the actual XP loss on deaths, a death at level 98 set you back a ton of time.

Its not that hard to make an AA system that has gradual power growth with out making it huge difference. Dimishing returns can solve a lot of AA point issues (most already do) to make any stat as an option with infinite upgrades. First few points are worth a lot but points 100-200 don't even add what just 1 point in another stat would do.
The Difference between 1000 paragon and 5000 paragon would not be 20,000 main stat but would be a few extra % in crit chance/damage/life thereby crunching the difference in paragon. Sure getting the next para level when your 5000 would award maybe 0.05% crit chance or 0.1% life compared to someone going from 4000 to 4001 getting 0.1% CC or 0.2% life but its still a growth in power.
Example bonus stats at para levels:

Paragon 100 : 7% CCC, 70% CCD, 20% Life, 25% Armor, 100 All Resist
Paragon 1000: 10% CCC, 100% CCD, 35% Life, 40% Armor, 175 All Resist
Paragon 2500: 13% CCC, 130% CCD, 41% Life, 47% Armor, 225 All Resist
Paragon 5000: 15% CCC, 150% CCD, 45% Life, 50% Armor, 250 All Resist
Paragon 10000: 17% CCC, 170% CCD, 48% Life, 52% Armor, 265 All Resist.

With this, para makes less an impact on growth vs the gear/stats/skill.

Players always want to see some form of growth or number going up when they do things. Think of it this way, with no AA, you could have this situation:

You log in for 8 hours. No gear upgrades drop, you gain no power gain, you log off. You basically wasted 8 hours on nothing.

With an AA at least you gained "something" for your time.
03/28/2019 11:47 AMPosted by Dragonmaster


You log in for 8 hours. No gear upgrades drop, you gain no power gain, you log off. You basically wasted 8 hours on nothing.

With an AA at least you gained "something" for your time.
At some point in time, I think that is fine if you character is done and cannot get any better.

In D2, I literally never made it to lvl 99. Maybe 92 or 93 but never higher than that and often times not that high.

In Grim Dawn there is no alternative advancement. In 500 hours I'm not even close to the point where I'd need any AA even though I always hit make level relatively easily (compared to D2).

In D3, you easily hit max level. You easily acquire a 6 pc set (massive). Everything happens so quick and easy that if you didn't have AA you'd have basically nothing. You'd just be playing for Ancients with good rolls.
Paragon is a disease implemented to cure another sickness.

It should have been replaced with proper gear enchanting and a much longer character progress that didn't depend on end level. Like all of the predecessors. Reaching level 50 or 99 took a lengthy time in those games.

They should have focused on ways to beat the annoyingly large amount of RNG they put in, instead of creating artificial character development and pointless infinite power creep.
I think the people that are saying "NO PARAGON, it was a disease" need to analyze for what it is.

Why was paragon designed poorly, but why can it be great:

The fact that we get every option capped and then +5 main stat afterward ruined the true potential of choice as well as augmenting gear. How to solve it, remove main stat as an option and add more stats to the system. Further, rather than having something like movespeed just get you to the cap, lower it to 10% but allow it to increase the MS cap as well. A system should never diminish the stat roles on gear!

Additionally, the entire system needs to be capped! There should have been 800 possible allocations, and only something like 400 points to earn. Infinite progression seemed fun on the surface, but people quickly realized that it just led to burnout. If seasons were 8 weeks instead of 12 weeks, and there was 6 weeks to grind gear and power, then 2 weeks to push, I think the game could still be thriving to be honest!

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