Finally got a buff to Rapid Fire!

Demon Hunter
NAT is clearly stronger for 4 man non season than LON because it is using Endless walk set and LON is using HF amulet. There is no good enough 5th passive for HF.

Edit: LON gives more Fire damage but NAT gives bigger set buff. Both use many items that are same.
Is new rapid fire good for:

Keyfarm - NO
Bounties - NO
Speed GR 3 min runs - NO
Solo Push - Dont think so
4 man BK - NO
4 man trash killer - NO

So I have a question. What was the goal with recent buff blizzard? And do you think it was acomplished?

If there are no further buffs to the core items they will not be used.
I like that chart -- you can pretty much lump together solo and 2-man.

The thing that nobody is really addressing is the longevity of these builds. S17 and S16 bonuses are pumping up builds that wouldn't be 1st choice in non-season.

LoN Rapid Fire loses either CoE + 1 defensive buffs, or 2 defensive buffs. A lot of power is lost, you're probably going to need to wear Esoteric + String of Ears to make it work in non-season. This will make clearing GR120 a challenge. I have struggled playing potent N6 variants (N6, N6M2, N6UE4) due to defense issues, I guess you could get away using N6 in 2-man groups w/ zMonk for GR120-130s, but the solo push game struggles without Unity / Elusive and awkward stack loss due to RoV.

Natma loses CoE -- that adds up to 4-5GRs when you're timing wolf + vengeance with the fire cycles.

To your point, our tried-and-true builds (S6 Impale RGK, N6M4 Cluster, UE6 Multishot) will likely remain mainstream.

If they can separate out that Wojahnni damage multiplier, I think we'd have something comparable to N6M4 LfB / M6 Cluster Bombs that can be a permanent fixture in 'the best of the best DH builds list' . I'd greatly prefer LoN Rapid Fire over M6 Cluster for the reason that it uses a unique skill set.
04/25/2019 06:37 AMPosted by dmkt
Natma loses CoE -- that adds up to 4-5GRs when you're timing wolf + vengeance with the fire cycles.


NAT rapid fire build is same in season and non season and it is using CoE in cube. It is also using Vengeance and wolf.
Lets compare NAT and LON rapid fire builds in 4 man for non season:

Same Items:
Same weapon - Dawn
Same offhand - Sin seekers
Same belt - Hellcat Waistguard
Same shoulders - Mantle of channeling
Same bracers - Lacuni Prowlers
Same cube items - Wojahnni Asaulter + Aquila Cuirass + Convention of Elements

Different Items:
Gloves - Magefirst, giving +20% fire damage
Chest - Cindercoat giving +20% fire damage
Pants - Swamp Land Waders +20% fire damage
Helm - Leoric's Crown - giving a bit more Wolf uptime
Boots - Illusory boots - giving more utility but don't give any extra damage

LON build is using LON rings + HF amulet
NAT is using NAT ring + Endless walk set.

LON set gives 750%x13=9750% buff that is 98.5 multiplier
NAT set gives 14000% buff that is 141 multiplier.

141/98.5 = 1.43

LON set goes with 100% fire damage increase
NAT set goes with 40% fire damage increase

2/1.4 = 1.42

1.43~1.42 close enough. I don't want to go into detail how additive damage is working. Lets simplify it and just say that at this point builds are about the same even if in reality NAT is a bit ahead already.

Than it comes down to rings and amulets. Endless walk set gives 100% damage (2x multiplier) buff that has much bigger value than any 5th passive from HF amulet that could be used with LON build. A bit more up time on wolf that LON provides does not help much. With both builds you want oculus and going there breaks stacks.... so just pop RoV before going there.

Even if you add damage from SOJ ring that we can use in season because of S17 buff endless walk set gives more damage. In season we can use elusive ring but it is not needed because in 4 man we are not using stricken we are using esoteric instead of it. Also in 4 man we receive best buff in game called Ignore Pain. And also we are mostly vulnerable when we are moving from spot to spot.... so don't forget that endless walk gives 50% damage reduction while moving.

NAT gives 60% damage reduction from set that is more than LON gives you.

There is really no need to talk about 2 and 3 man.... if wizzard is not included in talks. I mean in EU non season 3 man did 150 already.

Why I choose to write about 4 man only? Because in this game 90% of time, or even more, people are farming keys or doing 4 man party content.

PS: We need class specific damage buffing ring. I hope Blizzard is taking notice.
Sorry Pe3eWe3e, Natma is N6M4 w/ Reapers wraps. Didn't mean to confuse.
When the patch first rolled out I tested N6 because i was most excited about it. After playing LoN for many hours, my preference changed.

Shooting N6 Rapid Fire only in the CoE fire cycle is almost as strong as LoN Rapid fire shooting in all 4 cycles. But when you factor in N6's Wojahnni stacks resets, and LoN has the ability to shift defensive gear/skills for SoJ/Witching Hour/Andariel's Visage, Bait the Trap + MfD application -- it's hard to say which is truly better in 4-man.

On paper, N6 appears stronger but... LoN is more robust and has ability to walk through a sea of trash w/ Illusory boots. This makes the game play soooo much smoother.
Rapid fire doesn't pierce. So it sucks and these changes don't make any difference.
04/25/2019 12:31 PMPosted by dmkt
Sorry Pe3eWe3e, Natma is N6M4 w/ Reapers wraps. Didn't mean to confuse.


Did not know that :)
04/25/2019 01:26 PMPosted by Pe3eWe3e
04/25/2019 12:31 PMPosted by dmkt
Sorry Pe3eWe3e, Natma is N6M4 w/ Reapers wraps. Didn't mean to confuse.


Did not know that :)


dmxkt likes to make people go "WT..." when they look at his group leaderboard build :)
Sadly, i had to switch to Impale RGK to push gems. I did want to leave a nice 4-man mark of GR130, with natma. I guess that's what YouTube is for.
04/25/2019 03:05 AMPosted by Pe3eWe3e
Is new rapid fire good for:

Keyfarm - NO
Bounties - NO
Speed GR 3 min runs - NO
Solo Push - Dont think so
4 man BK - NO
4 man trash killer - NO

So I have a question. What was the goal with recent buff blizzard? And do you think it was acomplished?

Personally I'm happy when there are several GR100 builds. Before 2.6.5, Rapid Fire was hardly T13 skill.
Wudi just cleared a 122 at a little over 1200 para w/the RF LoN build. He's 10 tiers ahead of second place on EU S17 DH LB. The build looks competitive w/the other DH sets, and could even push high in 2-4 man groups it appears. Pretty neat.
Wudi just cleared a 122 at a little over 1200 para w/the RF LoN build. He's 10 tiers ahead of second place...


Interesting. Maybe I should forget about pushing for now and switch to farm / gem up / gather ancients mode and try it out. Made my highest ever ladder position last night, #5 on EU SHC with a 106.

Crazy thing is that I really don't enjoy playing Impale build and was planning to just play N6M4 as usual.
top US S17 clear is 113 with RF/LoN at sub 900 para and far from optimal gear in most slots.
05/20/2019 07:04 PMPosted by Achilles5
Wudi just cleared a 122 at a little over 1200 para w/the RF LoN build. He's 10 tiers ahead of second place on EU S17 DH LB. The build looks competitive w/the other DH sets, and could even push high in 2-4 man groups it appears. Pretty neat.


Damn! A classic wudijo low-paragon push stunt, GR130 RF clear might actually happen by season end.
05/21/2019 10:50 AMPosted by dmkt
05/20/2019 07:04 PMPosted by Achilles5
Wudi just cleared a 122 at a little over 1200 para w/the RF LoN build. He's 10 tiers ahead of second place on EU S17 DH LB. The build looks competitive w/the other DH sets, and could even push high in 2-4 man groups it appears. Pretty neat.


Damn! A classic wudijo low-paragon push stunt, GR130 RF clear might actually happen by season end.
Is there something special he's doing? Like is there a glitch or exploit involved? I recall some seasons ago a certain *someone* discovered a potion snapshot glitch for M6 Multishot which let them top the leaderboards with a large paragon deficit lol.
Not sure about any exploiting, I couldn't see anything watching him live, but Wudi just posted a GR 123 on YT. Maybe some of the experts here can watch and comment on anything shady going on....or if everything looks legit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn37PjWce_Y

2-man 125 also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_bujQQI5w
05/21/2019 03:01 PMPosted by Achilles5
Not sure about any exploiting, I couldn't see anything watching him live, but Wudi just posted a GR 123 on YT. Maybe some of the experts here can watch and comment on anything shady going on....or if everything looks legit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn37PjWce_Y

2-man 125 also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_bujQQI5w
I didn't see anything really shady just some interesting skill choices: he used Smokescreen - Vanishing Powder since it's free every few seconds and while he had Shadow Power on the skill bar he almost never used it.

As we know Rapid Fire % on gear is worthless due to the additive nature of the Wojahnni buff. Next, he didn't use any attack speed except for quiver to optimize the benefit from Pain Enhancer; it was odd to see it rank 25 and not a single rank higher (I know it doesn't help much after 25 but still weird). Next, he had rank ~100 augments on pretty much everything and his gems were over 120, I suspect he was playing almost NONSTOP and has other DH funneling gear to him (he had over 17k Dex only a few days into the season)!

Last interesting tidbit, he put TWO paragon points into Hatred! I suspect this is so that his pool is 126 which if you account for a 30% Cindercoat + 10% Paragon RCR it adds to 37% fire RCR -> 20 cost RF becomes 12.6 cost -> never lose Aquila buff for even a split second.
05/21/2019 01:14 PMPosted by Iria
Is there something special he's doing?

The only thing I can see is that he is using the snapshot effect of Pain Enhancer. He pulls larger groups, fires a few grenades into the group (to stack PE), and then start with RF again until (almost) the whole pack is done.

The same with the boss. Note how he stacks PE on the last pack and doesn't stop channeling while the RG spawns. I don't know whether the Speed Pylon is also snapshotted. But the PE stacks should be the main reason why he doesn't use Oculus during the RG fight.

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