The class-dependent issue with LoN

General Discussion
As sets evolved there were two different paths that could be taken for balance:

- Have legendaries that buff skills out of the park and then produce sets with modest damage buffs.
- Have legendaries which give minor buffs to skills (like have them gain a rune or reduce cost/cooldown) and then have the sets give a huge damage buff.

I haven't done the full research, but I've seen the disparity here when I did some work on the PTR. All of this math is just off the top of my head, so someone else may have better numbers, but I think it is good enough to at least demonstrate the primary issue with inter-class balancing of LoN.

Blessed Sheild Crusader has 350%+300% (multi) +500% (1-hit) specific legendary bonuses from items for BS. It doesn't need much boost from either a 6-piece set or LoN to wreak havoc.

Wave of Light Monk has 550%+150%+150% (multi) + 250% (3-hit) specific legendary bonuses from items for WoL. I haven't actually played the LoN version of this build, and I don't think the LoN bonus compares well to the Sunwuko set, but it is still high enough for those item bonuses to stack and make the LoN version of that build pretty powerful.

Multi-shot Demon Hunter gets only a 200%+200% bonus for MS and has a set that can produce a huge bonus (25000 - 30000%? what's the max Discipline again?) that LoN can't compete with.

Is there something that can be done to fix this?

LoN is balanced with a limit on not making the builds above that have high non-set bonuses too powerful, so its effect is limited by the classes where they chose high item bonuses and modest set bonuses, like BS and WoL. If they buff LoN too far, then those builds just obliterate anything in their path.

When they introduce balance changes it always seems that legendary items are made new again - the old versions continue to have the old bonuses and you have to farm the new ones with the new effects. This mechanism means that they are now stuck with the huge item bonuses mentioned above. They can't buff LoN by a lot and come out with new BS/WoL items that have smaller bonuses because players would just use the old legendaries with the new LoN anyway.

The one area they do have room to change is set bonuses. When they introduce new set bonuses they affect all of the items already out there, so set bonuses can raise or lower as they see fit without creating legacy items that remain problematic in the new balance.

So, one way to fix this and bring all classes up to speed for having decent LoN builds would be to dramatically reduce the size of the set bonuses for the DH (and Barb?) builds and to balance those against new versions of the items with much larger skill bonuses. Say, bump Yang's and DML to 400% apiece. Maybe have Visage of Gunes add a general damage bump to Vengeance in addition to the Dark Heart rune?

For Barb, it seems that Gavel of Judgment and Bracers of the First Men already have a huge buff for HotA so I'm guessing that makes a decent LoN build damage-wise, but I haven't tried it much. The WW build for Barb, which is a mainstay for fast farming would seem to be the bigger issue. It has Skull Grasp for 400% improved damage, but that isn't a lot compared to the skills above, and a bigger issue is Fury generation from the BK set which can't be used with LoN. That would need a new weapon (perhaps 2h?) that buffs WW and reduces its Fury cost? I'm not sure what the right answers are here for Barbs because I don't play them much.

One of the issues with skill-based damage buffs on items, though, is that it makes all of the builds focus on a small number of skills. One could say that the high damage buffs on the DH sets would potentially lead to build diversity, but they are pretty targeted already anyway so its not like they had a huge number of skills to choose from that will be lost if their legendaries start having large skill bonuses.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
There have been several suggestions and proposals to change and fix this. This is the very reason those 800% multipliers on a single item are a very bad idea.

And to avoid outrage and issues changing legacy items, changes have been directed at sets mainly to give the sense of progression, which has led us to these ridiculous numbers and a totally off balance itemization that favors very little diversification and build options.

To change would require a lot of work and probably a rebelance, since it can't really work all ways.
the "fun" thing is that no one wants to have a (real) monk in a 4 man, they only want a healer, sorc as tk is way too strong. maybe a lon ltk will be a thing for bk. it has decent bonus from legs as well. blizz is not really thinking enough, they only push sets and have no idea of gameplay or leg specific builds buffed by lon. lon wol is similar strong to inna wol right now non season, it definitively will be a good build (solo). the problem with the "bad" lon classes is that sets are much too strong. you could give e.g. impale weapon some xtra dmg and take it off that 6p bonus of the set. done with a lon impale possibility :)
04/15/2019 11:59 AMPosted by flarbear
Thoughts? Suggestions?


You don't have to use LoN. It's there to give you more options.
04/15/2019 01:15 PMPosted by DonMartin
04/15/2019 11:59 AMPosted by flarbear
Thoughts? Suggestions?


You don't have to use LoN. It's there to give you more options.

And it can be a better option, so we discuss how to make it a better option.
04/15/2019 12:48 PMPosted by KiWeN
There have been several suggestions and proposals to change and fix this. This is the very reason those 800% multipliers on a single item are a very bad idea.

And to avoid outrage and issues changing legacy items, changes have been directed at sets mainly to give the sense of progression, which has led us to these ridiculous numbers and a totally off balance itemization that favors very little diversification and build options.

To change would require a lot of work and probably a rebelance, since it can't really work all ways.

I agree that the large single item multipliers were a bad idea. Unfortunately, given the way that item balancing is practiced in this game, they can't be taken back as easily as other fixes.

And I agree that they limit true diversity in the long run.

But, in the meantime the tradeoff there was not implemented the same way across all of the classes which leads to an unnecessary imbalance in LoN.

Item bonuses can't really be rolled back to restore the "large item bonus + modest set bonus" builds, but the "minimal item bonus + large set bonus" builds can at least be moved to adopt the same tradeoff so that all classes are on the same playing field and all will have similar utility in LoN builds.

And, yes, fixing the original problem of runaway item bonuses would also help, but that is a much larger effort - a couple of orders of magnitude larger disruption in the current balancing than simply adopting the same tradeoff across all classes.
There could be a "simple" number fix for LoN that its buff would be class dependent. For example, for Barbs and DH, instead of using 750% per item they could make it 1500% (or whatever the right number is to bring them up to other classes level).
I play a seasonal lon wol monk. He performs better than my set wol monk, and I’ve reached GR 101 with him. He is of course rorg independent. The seasonal leader board is full of the inna/5 build. He currently has the sage set build on him; I’ll put the lon build on him later today. Independent of the lon rings, he could go higher.
This build is easily interchangeable with the sage/wol monk for db farming with the added db drops.

On the other hand I don’t see a viable DH lon build. I’ve got three seasonal DH, two of which have done greater than GR 100, both taking advantage of the rorg buff. Practically the DH builds would be non-starters next season with the loss of the rorg buff—except my third DH—multi for farming.
04/15/2019 02:38 PMPosted by MicroRNA
There could be a "simple" number fix for LoN that its buff would be class dependent. For example, for Barbs and DH, instead of using 750% per item they could make it 1500% (or whatever the right number is to bring them up to other classes level).

That could fix it, but these kinds of class variations don't really have a precedent in the game patches.

The proposal I made of creating new item bonuses for the classes that are falling behind with LoN, offset by lower set bonuses is based on mechanics that they've used in previous patches.
04/15/2019 02:48 PMPosted by Obxer
I play a seasonal lon wol monk. He performs better than my set wol monk, and I’ve reached GR 101 with him. He is of course rorg independent. The seasonal leader board is full of the inna/5 build. He currently has the sage set build on him; I’ll put the lon build on him later today. Independent of the lon rings, he could go higher.
This build is easily interchangeable with the sage/wol monk for db farming with the added db drops.

On the other hand I don’t see a viable DH lon build. I’ve got three seasonal DH, two of which have done greater than GR 100, both taking advantage of the rorg buff. Practically the DH builds would be non-starters next season with the loss of the rorg buff—except my third DH—multi for farming.

That disparity was the starting assumption of the OP. What I was getting at is how to bring those various classes into some kind of consistency such that LoN affects them all with equal or similar benefit.
04/15/2019 11:59 AMPosted by flarbear
Is there something that can be done to fix this?


Use legendary item damage procs with bursts when playing a channel spec; if playing a hectic build be sure to top DoT with afterkill bonuses; else playing a tank/zdps, stack thorns and have health globe triggers. It all lies at the player's choice, you have a playground for different combinations of legendaries.
Every little amount of thorns benefits from your main stat and LoN's generous damage bonus also affect any damage proc you can spit out. LoN allows you to utilize your highest damage output skills or abuse stacking multipliers with ease. Why exactly you feel lost again? Just peek at leaderboards and see how and which kinda builds benefitted from it.

At one end there are people talking about Sets being too restrictive and at the other end people getting confused without the directives of Sets. It's hilarious.
Meh..

The gearing situation in D3 is f'd, since sets are the end all be all.

I still love D3 though. (:
Asking for a buff now to items ? People whinned and whinned until blizzard buffed their class /builds. And 90% of the time it was right in their sets. That’s why you don’t have viable builds for Lon. There was no real balance. They didn’t put the numbers into legendary items vs the sets.

The set numbers were fine majority of the time. Just legendary items have always felt underwhelming. And a lot of them still do. But that’s because people took the set buffs and screamed like little kids on Xmas.
04/15/2019 02:38 PMPosted by MicroRNA
There could be a "simple" number fix for LoN that its buff would be class dependent. For example, for Barbs and DH, instead of using 750% per item they could make it 1500% (or whatever the right number is to bring them up to other classes level).

You could... But it eould be really really bad.

Take barb, it can do a 95 with LoN. To bring it up to 100 would take a x2 as each 5 GR tiers right about doubles the hp and thus needed damage. So 105 would be x2 x2 or x4, 110 would be x8, 115 x16, and so on.

So to reach 145 which both wizard and Necro does now it would take a x256, or 750% x256 for the LoN. That puts the set bonus at 192,000% per ancient item. Even at a 115 level which is x16 the numbers are ridiculous at 12,000% per ancient.

The fix to LoN is not in LoN, but the supporting legendaries, we hsce been crying out about this for several years now, and each power creep patch just made it worse, while players gobbled it up like pumkin juice, not considering the ramifications.

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