PTR Chantodo

Wizard
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Well this is a pleasant surprise. Just popped in to see if we had a season 16 end / season 17 start date, and was greeted with a Chantodo's buff!

04/01/2019 12:53 PMPosted by aloc
Good ol Tinn. man used to work Vyrs really hard. Gameplay and simulation.


:)


I think it'd be fun if we got some of the old-school wizards (still playing) together on Season start and did a loot share/gear up together. I'd be game.
I can tested a little the changes in Chantodo now, only can play one GR level 118, the others games frozen and unplayable in PTR after that one, i see Chantodo work very nice, do the same results when there were 5 ticks, now all damage are in one shot, and i feel work well and feel the same results and progress only work diferent...

Now finish 120 gr i say feel the same results with one wave...
Alright; tested the changes in a couple of solo runs and cleared a GR132: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/415592959Good news; overall it's a buff. It seems that (as previously discussed) Issue 1 and 3 have been resolved even though I did not mechanically test it. I say this purely from playtest-experience and not from actually sitting down in Brawl and testing the mechanics at hand.

This evening I'll meetup with a couple of friends and we are going to retest VyrXP runs; seeing if anything changed in those setups. Transitioning one Vyr Wizard into DW from Furnace might now be worth it with the increased "First Tick WoD"-Burst. I don't expect large changes for that group setup though and I still expect us to perform at a max. of GR117/118 - which is slightly better than non-S17 LoN Rats.

As for Vyr/Chantodos and the APS multiplier: One thing to test is definitely whether or not the APS multiplier caps out at 5.0 APS. It might not, since it's not bound to an animation anymore (similar to how APS multiplier works for Pets or Spirit Barrage for that sake). In that case, zMonk Uliana 2PC setups with Pain Enhancer can bring a Wizard up to 9-11 APS consistently (that's definitely something we'll test tonight). It remains to be seen, if that has to be nerfed (in other words the multiplier scaling has to be reasonably capped). A cap at 6.0 APS should be safe for Solo players (since those usually can't reach those tiers of IAS by themselves).
Thanks for testing. Grats on 132! Pretty nice rift.

I tried out the Karini variation, wasted all my luck on rifts leveling up gems again (blast you PTR reset!...), and was unable to clear 129 with bad rifts - cleared 128. I did make some progress on a skeleton summoner rift, but of course, bad follow up levels. Previously I was able to clear 130 with the same build and items.

First impressions: I think overall the Karini variation has suffered from this change. Oculus spawn comes not quite as snappy because killing little monsters is not as frequent. Also the chill 30 yds does come more into play with Karini, as you stand and tank, getting as much density as possible within your chantodos. Now that all that yardage can no longer chill, it suffers damage wise when you do get a good rift.

This also means range for utilizing oculus has decreased somewhat - The advantage with Karini to be able to utilize more oculus spawns feels lessened. This also favors the multiplier from CoE.

I do find myself missing the increased frequency, even though I know it's for the better overall.

Then again, perhaps my increased latency on PTR tonight affected stack counts as well. I'll try to get a better rift to confirm, and may also try CoE for comparison.
mcdundee was testing whether or not the APS was capped, and his sheet damage seemed to keep going up with stacks but I don't really remember whether this set directly fed into sheet damage with its stacks or not. We tested it in a cow level.

Edit: The below part is wrong, I think, ignore. See my follow up post near the end of this page...
And actually this got a rather large shadow nerf, as far as I can tell, because of one reason:
Convention of Elements.

Sample rate. Chantodo hits once per second. There are 4 seconds in CoE cold cycle, and 5 total points (4->3->2->1->0). If your waves aren't perfectly in sync with CoE cycle duration, you're going to get 4 hits, maximum (5 would be perfect). With chantodo scaling wave frequency off of IAS, you got the full 4 seconds of hits, the full duration. With this I think you're basically missing a hit. Roughly 20% damage reduction on your burst cycle, unless I'm missing something. There's also the fact that you could be missing at one second on your double stack cycle, too, but you know. Drop in the bucket at that point.

Well and the other inherent weakness with low sample rates. That is, that statistical outliers and anomalies are more likely to present when you have less attacks. You're more likely to get (chc)% of your attacks being crits when you attack more often, rather than only having one attack per second. So I'm thinking that on CoE especially you might lose out on some portion of damage simply because you might have two attacks out of 4 not be crits on cold cycle (bazooka wizard is especially obnoxious on this front).

I do find myself missing the increased frequency, even though I know it's for the better overall.

Then again, perhaps my increased latency on PTR tonight affected stack counts as well. I'll try to get a better rift to confirm, and may also try CoE for comparison.


So do I. The faster WoF felt pretty nice, although it was hard on hardware and people. Going to slow down speed runs and TXVI farming in particular. Oh well. The build still gives me carpal tunnel. I might be getting old.
Just to math this out a bit more thoroughly.
04/23/2019 10:23 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Roughly 20% damage reduction on your burst cycle, unless I'm missing something.
Not exactly; you have 4 hits guaranteed in CoE-Cold (x3.0) and sometimes (if lucky) 5 hits. Even if you are unlucky, the 5th hit still constitutes as a hit (it's just not in CoE-Cold). You neglected the 5th hit. So in total you are looking at: (5 * 3) / (4 * 3 + 1) ~= 15.38% or in other words: If you are lucky with CoE-Cold and you get 5 hits through in the current implementation, you'll have dealt 15.38% more damage at most in comparison to being unlucky (that's an upper bound). This example is with the currently static values of WoD-FPA = 60 Frames and CoE-Duration = 240 Frames.

Now, in the last patch (dynamic WoD-FPA) this was slightly different, however, the upper bound of 15.38% still holds to be true (you can't deal more damage with a more "lucky" schedule of CoE-Hits when WoD-FPA -> 1). For WoD-FPA = 1 both implementations would yield the exact same damage and for each FPA decrease (which yields a frequency increase) the "old" implementation comes closer to the "perfect lucky CoE-Hit schedule"-damage of the current implementation, but it's never worse than 15.38%.
04/23/2019 10:23 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
And actually this got a rather large shadow nerf, as far as I can tell, because of one reason:
So yes, it's actually a shadow nerf on this end. However, keep in mind that the "old" implementation did not scale while being within the same Archon instance; meaning any Archon Stacks gain during CoE-Cold (or even in prior) did not yield a dynamic DPS increase (tick frequency did not dynamically scale). Your next Archon would benefit from those stacks; not your current one. This is different in the current implementation. Right now, a very well placed CoE-Cold + Oculus will give you a stack ramp that immediately effects your consecutive hits and additionally your next Archon.

The question at hand is now: Is the "chance of getting unlucky" in CoE-Cold worth the dynamic runtime scaling we gain? From my point of view that's a clear: Yes. I'll gladly take in account a damage loss of roughly one tier, if I am guaranteed for my Archon to scale itself while in Archon (faster and more stable ramp).
04/23/2019 10:23 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
You're more likely to get (chc)% of your attacks being crits when you attack more often, rather than only having one attack per second.
This only really matters on the bossfight with a power pylon and it's simply something you have to live with. It doesn't matter at all within the rift due to the large sample of hits.
04/23/2019 10:23 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
So I'm thinking that on CoE especially you might lose out on some portion of damage simply because you might have two attacks out of 4 not be crits on cold cycle (bazooka wizard is especially obnoxious on this front).
This is not really a bazooka specific issue. Once again, this only applies to the bossfight with a power running and any SP Variant (or single burst build) will have the same issue. There is nothing we can do about it. This reasoning does not apply to a "fully played" rift.
Couple of questions:
04/23/2019 10:22 PMPosted by Cratic
Now that all that yardage can no longer chill, it suffers damage wise when you do get a good rift.
I am not really sure, what you mean with this? Could you elaborate. As of now I don't see a link between "Chill AoE-Coverage" and "WoD FPA".
04/23/2019 10:22 PMPosted by Cratic
The advantage with Karini to be able to utilize more oculus spawns feels lessened.
Additionally I also don't really see this relation. You still can decide to deterministically spawn an Oculus two seconds in prior to Arcane (and just pull/stack ramp in prior) with a CoE-setup; it's not a guarantee, but stagnating one's DPS to deterministically spawn one is definitely something you want to do in Vyr/Chantodos - from my understanding the archetype is nearly tailored towards utilizing CoE.

Karini is very relaxing though, and is definitely a great choice to rotate in for countless hours of mindless solo grinding :-) Probably the new "go-to" build for pre-leveling gems while catching up with TV-Shows :D
Could you elaborate. As of now I don't see a link between "Chill AoE-Coverage" and "WoD FPA".

EDIT: as below, I was assuming wrong here that chantodos WoD would act different mechanically than a skill. See sVr's post below for correction.

Chill only lasts .5s after being applied, and now that the Wave of Destruction hits only once a second, we don't get permanent chill for the Trapped gem multiplier at 20 to 30 yards range. This is a lot of area to lose this multiplier for.

Granted, this is outside of Audacity, but it is noticeable that the enemies near the outside of my WoD took more damage with the attack speed scaling.

This ties in with Oculus utility, as before you could stand 30 yards out, and still at least get Trapped and Oculus. Aside from using the beam to chill, you now have to be within ~20 yards to do so.

04/24/2019 03:24 AMPosted by sVr
Additionally I also don't really see this relation.

One advantage with Karini is the ability to tank the oculus spawns more regularly than CoE can. With the impact as mentioned, that advantage is lessened, and it makes Karini weaker in comparison than it used to be vs CoE.
04/24/2019 03:24 AMPosted by sVr
Probably the new "go-to" build for pre-leveling gems while catching up with TV-Shows :D

Definitely looking forward to this one even still. =)
04/24/2019 07:44 AMPosted by Cratic
Chill only lasts .5s after being applied, and now that the Wave of Destruction hits only once a second, we don't get permanent chill for the Trapped gem multiplier at 20 to 30 yards range. This is a lot of area to lose this multiplier for.
I just retested and the chill/slow from each WoD applies before the damage instance is applied. Any target hit with WoD will have BotT up (quickly tested with off-rolled ranges and +min dmg rings on a couple of Zombies). Did you have other testing results? I had similar results back in the days with Jade/Siphon where the chill and intelligence gain from the Siphon applies before the damage instance of Jade is calculated. So you always have all buffs up at all times and there is "no incorrect way" to schedule your abilities.
One advantage with Karini is the ability to tank the oculus spawns more regularly than CoE can.
I can see that; from my PoV it's "simply always take any Oculus" and dodge within the Oculus and sometimes commit your proc as a ressource (definitely not HC viable). It's stressfull but playing GR130s+ the last issue I have (and the build has) is "mitigation" issues. Tal-Vyr-MH felt a thousands times more squishy than this current Vyr Chantodos. That's great for us Wizards; we can go full DPS without a significant downside of having to be a "LouLou"-skilled player!
04/24/2019 09:00 AMPosted by sVr
I just retested and the chill/slow from each WoD applies before the damage instance is applied.

Thank you for this test. Completely missed that this could have been (and is) the case. I do remember testing frozen orb, and noting the same result, I guess I just assumed that the proc from chantodos was going to work different than a skill like FO.

Why I assumed, I'll never know!
04/24/2019 09:00 AMPosted by sVr
Tal-Vyr-MH felt a thousands times more squishy

Ah, yes, where one hit fells the wizard. I agree even with CoE this is much better.

Karini allows the wizard to tank Molten explosions, Electrified, Reflects damage, mortar, arcane, and sometimes even all of these at the same time. Is it fun? yes, useful, still yes, but perhaps not quite as much use on a push as CoE.
04/24/2019 11:32 AMPosted by Cratic

Karini allows the wizard to tank Molten explosions, Electrified, Reflects damage, mortar, arcane, and sometimes even all of these at the same time. Is it fun? yes, useful, still yes, but perhaps not quite as much use on a push as CoE.


I don't know how you'd play without Karini. I mean, I was only 1600 (no augments) but some fairly impressive vyr's gear, and sometimes I just died at 115 without really knowing why. I mean, higher level augments could easily put me at 120, but 130 is quite a jump from that. Dying is sometimes an auto-loss.

Aside, what are the optimum rolls on Chant's Wand? I was thinking IAS, CDR, and % damage, but I see on your D3 Planner you've dropped CDR for LoH. I can see the reasoning for that. I assume it's worth it to delay Archon a second or two until you have 20 Chants stacks, or is it better to go with 17 immediately?
I tend to err on the side of maintaining Vyr6 archon stack count rather than absolutely hitting 20 chantodos every cycle, at least for solo push.

That said, after having stacked up vyr6 in a rift, if you are falling below 19 chantodos more than once every so often, perhaps you should check and make sure the build is tuned with proper CDR and attack speed, as this amount plus the extra attack speed from your Vyr6 stacks should provide you with enough chantodos stacks before entering archon.

My builds currently assume about one cast of each skill: Black Hole and either Teleport, slow time, or deep freeze to assist with damage and help with chantodos stack count themselves.

When you cast each of your alternate skills also impacts how quick you reset archon and stack up chantodos. You really have to keep an eye on those zodiac procs. I've found it's nice to cast black hole before teleport or slow time (and cast those right before entering archon), but I'm sure if you at least keep a similar rotation every time, the chantodos should stack up about the same.

RG will be different, and you will likely go into archon at lower chantodos stacks often (perhaps 15-17). On the RG it will be more important to get into archon and favor those Vyr stack counts to preserve damage, toughness, and attack speed.

This is why I usually forgo Black hole on the RG, and focus more on cycling archon. The only exception I can think of is if you are running Strongarms or perhaps Spellsteal for the debuff there.

This is how I do it. Is it better, worse? Try it out yourself and decide.
Edit: Nevermind I don't know what I'm smoking.
04/24/2019 12:44 PMPosted by Venaliter
I don't know how you'd play without Karini.


Dodge well. And hope you get a good RG.

In 2.6.1 I tried both Karini and CoE variants. Karini was nice, but the top end damage just wasn't there I felt. Cold CoE + double-stacked + Oculus is just too strong. Even in HC I'd often play it with CoE instead of Karini.

In 2.6.1 that was only in the low 100s, but CoE was definitely manageable with decent mob types and a good RG. But I could see survivability with the CoE variant being a bigger issue in 120+. GR130 is double the incoming damage of GR100.

But the damage potential of CoE is almost too much to give up. I imagine all the top clears with Chantodo Vyr's will use CoE. Karini should be a viable alternative though, maybe 2-3 GRs behind?

I suspect the Karini variant should perform better for anyone who can't manage to stay alive effectively with CoE (and for all but the absolute top HC players). And be a lot less frustrating. Dying just hurts you too much with Vyr's.
Alright, me and Rob#2628 sat down and did some tedious APS testing. Result: APS, for WoD as a separate multiplier, caps out at exactly x5.00. This was the setup:

Base Attack Speed: The Wizard was sitting at (1.4 * 1.07) * (1 + 0.42 + 0.5) ~= 2.87616 APS with Archon active.
Normalized Damage Hit: We witnessed a damage hit of 31,737,840. https://i.imgur.com/TWABQh0.png Fazula value are 50 Stacks. The Wizard had two legacy +min rings equipped and off-rolled Weapon range from Chantodo's Wand (each hit was the exact same value since min exceeded max range).
Pain-Enhancer Pull: The following bleed pull (https://i.imgur.com/eyNRsdj.jpg) gave the Wizard 284% "Attack Speed Increase". The expected WoD multiplier would be: (1.4 * 1.07) * (1 + 1.84) ~= 5.75232 APS with Archon active (still 50 stacks).
Expected Value: 5.75232 * ( 31,737,840 / 2.87616 ) ~= 63,475,680
Observed Value: 55,173,984 https://i.imgur.com/eyNRsdj.jpg
Observed WoD-Multiplier: 55173984 / ((31737840)/((1.4 * 1.07) * (1 + 0.42 + 0.5))) ~= 5.000000183422....

Our conclusion is that the WoD APS multiplier is capped.
04/24/2019 01:56 PMPosted by sVr
Our conclusion is that the WoD APS multiplier is capped.


Unfortunate, but not all that surprising. Nice work verifying that.
Actually forget that CoE shadow nerf post, I don't know what I'm smoking lol. At 5 attacks per second, you get a total of 20 attacks during a period of 4 seconds, which is the same amount of damage as doing 4 attacks during that period of 4 seconds, but with damage scaling with AS. Actually if anything, I think you can get more damage by timing the transformation to be right on top of a CoE cycle edge. Of course you'd have to account for wave travel time.

I probably haven't been getting enough sleep lately, because at this point I'm not even sure what I'm typing anymore.
Noob Wizard here,

From what I understand the build is Vyrs, Chantodo's weaps, fazula's chain, Ashnagarrs bracers, Pledge/compass but what are the cubes? Furnace, Swami and CoE?

And which spells with which runes? and Gems?

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