PTR Chantodo

Wizard
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04/24/2019 04:53 PMPosted by Enda
Noob Wizard here,

From what I understand the build is Vyrs, Chantodo's weaps, fazula's chain, Ashnagarrs bracers, Pledge/compass but what are the cubes? Furnace, Swami and CoE?

And which spells with which runes? and Gems?


You can build it a few different ways. Karini is more consistent and tankier, where CoE has a higher damage potential with a good rift. Furnace and Swami are the cube choices for those slots.
Ty for response
04/24/2019 04:53 PMPosted by Enda
From what I understand the build is Vyrs, Chantodo's weaps, fazula's chain, Ashnagarrs bracers, Pledge/compass but what are the cubes? Furnace, Swami and CoE?


Basically.

There's two key variants, basically just CoE (with Energy Armor: Force Armor) vs. Halo of Karini (with Storm Armor: Power of the Storm). Something like this:

CoE: https://www.d3planner.com/905393525
Karini: https://www.d3planner.com/668329965

If you have a really good CoE/Karini, you'll wear those. Otherwise, you'll probably wear Obsidian Ring and cube CoE/Karini for max effect,because it's easier to get a good Obsidian ring than it is to get a good CoE/Karini with a good legendary effect roll.
Alright, me and Rob#2628 sat down and did some tedious APS testing. Result: APS, for WoD as a separate multiplier, caps out at exactly x5.00.
Our conclusion is that the WoD APS multiplier is capped.


Okay, now for the $100,000 dollar question. How does this change our APS gearing? What kind of APS should be be shooting for? I vaguely remember there used to be a general number we wanted? I recognize it'll vary based on the number of stacks. Can we guesstimate how much APS we need?

Put another way, do we need more IAS other than Weapon, paragon, and maybe Obsidian?
04/24/2019 06:25 PMPosted by Venaliter
Put another way, do we need more IAS other than Weapon, paragon, and maybe Obsidian?


Nah.

5/(1.4*1.07)-0.10-1.00=224 stacks to max out. Or 209 with a Gogok. Or 202 with Gogok + 7IAS Obsidian. That's pretty easy to obtain when overlapped.

With a good rotation, even single target you should hit 170-180 stacks. 50 from Fazula, 20-30 from Blast, 100 from beam/punch (20 sec * 5 APS). Let's say 170 for a couple missed attacks (you should find against RGs without minions that don't require a ton of dodging you are hitting around this range). Then you get another 50 from Fazula when you pop again. That gives you 220 combined right after you enter Archon, which is sufficient to cap you at 5 APS.

EDIT: Forgot about Gogok.
Just tried on PTR and gotta say this feels good!

Had to work up from 105 (my previous top clear), did a 120 in 9 min with 120/110/100 gems at ~1800 paragon with mostly 80 augments. 21k int. Definitely some more potential there for me!

Playing a bit of a different build: CoE variant w/ Aether Walker + Calamity + APDs. And EE. https://www.d3planner.com/863518991

Won't clear as high as Furnace, but Calamity spam + APDs makes surviving out of Archon interesting. It's such a short stun you need to really bounce across packs to avoid having too many enemies hit CC immunity and then you just drop like a fly.

Can be pretty effective if you use it right though. You can stack Chantodo's faster, plus get some extra Obsidian procs. Channeling AT:SD while stuttering TP: Calamity for some reason you can get a second Chantodo stack that seems to bypass the regular ICD. And a second Obsidian proc too (only about half the time it goes to Archon cooldown, as the other half the time it goes into removing the very short cooldown on TP with AW).
How much CDR is needed to be the most efficient? Both rings, gloves, shoulders and offhand or weapon, 1 ring, gloves and offhand, shoulders?
What about firebird archon +chantodo with pain enchancer ? Can someone test it pretty please i think it would require some atack speed rolls but im curious how mich damage it would provide
04/24/2019 07:57 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
04/24/2019 06:25 PMPosted by Venaliter
Put another way, do we need more IAS other than Weapon, paragon, and maybe Obsidian?


Nah.

5/(1.4*1.07)-0.10-1.00=223 stacks to max out. Or 216 with a 7IAS Obsidian. That's pretty easy to obtain when overlapped.

With a good rotation, even single target you should hit 170-180 stacks. 50 from Fazula, 20-30 from Blast, 100 from beam/punch (20 sec * 5 APS). Let's say 173 for a couple missed attacks (you should find against RGs without minions that don't require a ton of dodging you are hitting around this range). Then you get another 50 from Fazula when you pop again. That gives you 223 combined right after you enter Archon, which is enough to cap you at 5 APS.


Hmm. I think my first rotation I generally have 100 stacks after my first archon. After that, I probably generally have 120 more consistently. Definitely do *not* get anywhere near 170 stacks on my first activation. Might be I'm doing something wrong. Sounds like I'm a bit rusty. Last time I played Vyrs, I used Fulminator with Lightning :P

I did a 116 with 1650, 108/108/55 (gogok) with an average of ~55 augments, but I was right down to the wire.
04/24/2019 01:26 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
Karini should be a viable alternative though, maybe 2-3 GRs behind?

I'd put Karini at roughly 1.5 GRs behind CoE. This is from testing both push builds on the PTR. My best pushes for both builds were fairly good rifts, good mob type, map, elites, but not necessarly the perfect pylons or RG.

Karini can engage more mob types (densely packed spear thrower Golgor mix on a festering is one of my favorites), but has to more consistently use the oculus and position for better damage, as well as ramp up stack counts better than CoE to make up for the multiplier loss as much as possible.

Plus you drop teleport for a different skill.

It's a vastly different playstyle.
04/24/2019 01:56 PMPosted by sVr
Alright, me and Rob#2628 sat down and did some tedious APS testing. Result: APS, for WoD as a separate multiplier, caps out at exactly x5.00.

Thank you for testing! I think the cap is good news overall.

This means on the surface, a decrease of half a GR:

11 FPA
4 * 5.454545455 = 21.81818182
LOG(21.81818182,1.17) = 19.63484104

5x damage
4 * 5 = 20
LOG(20,1.17) = 19.08064168

19.63484104 - 19.08064168 = ~0.55419936 GRs

But in reality, due to not having to snapshot upon ramp up, and with the attack speed damage scaling dynamic on top of that,

The damage scaling variant (2.6.5.58666) is at least the same GR potential as compared to the AS scaling variant in solo push.

No numbers to back this last point up, just observed thus far from pushing with similar gear and build on the PTR with both revisions.
04/24/2019 10:43 PMPosted by Cratic
04/24/2019 01:26 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
Karini should be a viable alternative though, maybe 2-3 GRs behind?

I'd put Karini at roughly 1.5-2GRs behind CoE. This is from testing both push builds on the PTR. My best pushes for both builds were fairly good rifts, good mob type, map, elites, but not necessarly the perfect pylons or RG.

Karini can engage more mob types (densely packed spear thrower Golgor mix on a festering is one of my favorites), but has to more consistently use the oculus and position for better damage, as well as ramp up stack counts better than CoE to make up for the multiplier loss as much as possible.

Plus you get to drop teleport for a different skill.

It's a vastly different playstyle.


Just wondering why would people wanna push with this when meteor is clearly superior ? I understand this is great for speed up to 110-115 since wiz has no speed build to fill that gap but pushing ? Isn’t meteor much better?
04/24/2019 11:20 PMPosted by Devastator
...
I'd put Karini at roughly 1.5-2GRs behind CoE. This is from testing both push builds on the PTR. My best pushes for both builds were fairly good rifts, good mob type, map, elites, but not necessarly the perfect pylons or RG.

Karini can engage more mob types (densely packed spear thrower Golgor mix on a festering is one of my favorites), but has to more consistently use the oculus and position for better damage, as well as ramp up stack counts better than CoE to make up for the multiplier loss as much as possible.

Plus you get to drop teleport for a different skill.

It's a vastly different playstyle.


Just wondering why would people wanna push with this when meteor is clearly superior ? I understand this is great for speed up to 110-115 since wiz has no speed build to fill that gap but pushing ? Isn’t meteor much better?


Nah, Chant's is superior, I believe. People are hitting GR 130 with Chant's.
04/24/2019 11:57 PMPosted by Venaliter
Nah, Chant's is superior, I believe. People are hitting GR 130 with Chant's.


Last night the top PTR clear was a 135 with LoN Star Pact. So that might edge out Chantodo Vyr's, but it shouldn't be too far behind.

04/24/2019 09:51 PMPosted by Venaliter
Hmm. I think my first rotation I generally have 100 stacks after my first archon. After that, I probably generally have 120 more consistently.


I'm talking more about steady-state single-target stack count rather than first activation. You'll never hit 5 APS first activation, so I wouldn't really bother optimizing for that. Your DPS then is pretty irrelevant given your low APS, single stack, and low stack count.

I usually optimize for single-target steady state (e.g. vs. RG). And in that sense, you shouldn't really need anything other than weapon + maybe Obsidian. If it's a tough RG where you are dodging a lot you may drop down to 140-150 stacks because of missed stacks during dodging, but even then you'll still hit 5 APS pretty quickly after you transform. But for an easy RG you should find you are hitting 170ish stacks pretty consistently. More for Saxtris or other RGs with minions.

159 Swami stack with a 50 stack Fazula + Gogok and just 7 attack speed on weapon (+paragon) is sufficient for 5 APS immediately when you enter Archon.

EDIT: Forgot about Gogok IAS.
Darn this feels like the wiz forum of back in the day. Great job folks.
One thing that's struck me is that in 2.6.1/2.6.4 your DPS scales roughly linearly with stack count. It's a little above linear below 5 APS/209 stacks (flat chantodo's wave damage + flat archon blast damage + archon wave/punch scaling with APS)*(stack count multiplier), but barely (the flat Chantodo's wave DPS mostly overwhelms Archon skill DPS). After you hit 5 APS/209 stacks, your DPS is fully linear with stack count.

APS at 50 stacks = 1.4*1.07*(1+0.1+0.15+50/100) = 2.6215

Relative DPS at 50 stacks vs 209 stacks: ((20*1000 + 604*1.5/0.67 + 790*1.5*2.6215)*(1+50)) / ((20*1000+604*1.5/0.67+790*1.5*5)*(1+209)) = 0.218

In the new patch, your DPS below 5 APS/209 stacks scales significantly above linear with your stack count, since you have (chantodo's wave damage scaling with APS + flat archon blast damage + archon wave/punch scaling with APS)*(stack count multiplier). After you hit 5 APS/209 stacks DPS is fully linear again with stack count.

APS at 50 stacks = 1.4*1.07*(1+0.1+0.15+50/100) = 2.6215

Relative DPS at 50 stacks vs 209 stacks: ((20*4000*2.6215 + 604*1.5/0.67 + 790*1.5*2.397)*(1+50)) / ((20*4000*5+604*1.5/0.67+790*1.5*5)*(1+209)) = 0.128

So basically, changing the wave to scale with APS means that in relative terms, you are even weaker than before at low stack counts before you hit 5 APS. In 2.6.1/2.6.4 you do more DPS in your first cycle relative to your top end DPS than you do in 2.6.5.

It's particularly noticeable in your first cycle in medium range GRs. Not so noticeable in super speeds, where you kill stuff regardless, or top end GRs where you don't kill stuff regardless. In 2.6.1/2.6.4 I'd find I'd get some kills on trash in my first cycle in mid-range GRs, whereas in 2.6.5 the difference between your high end DPS and your first cycle DPS is more exaggerated, so after jumping up 20 GRs, you're less likely to kill enemies during your first cycle that you would in 2.6.1/2.6.4 for a roughly equivalent GR clear (in roughly the same amount of time).

Makes for a slightly slower ramp/snowball in mid-range GRs now because of the more exaggerated difference between first cycle DPS and top end DPS, resulting in fewer potential kill stacks in your first cycle.

Not really a problem, but might require a slight change of playstyle for mid-range GRs if you have been playing a lot of Chantodo Vyr's in 2.6.1/2.6.4.

EDIT: Forgot about Gogok IAS.
EDIT (4/30/2019): Changed my opinion after testing more. Found stack counts pretty much unchanged if dropping the AS from ring, albeit harder to stack up and survive the beginning of the rift in certain cases.

New comments:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20771336971?page=10#post-191

04/24/2019 06:25 PMPosted by Venaliter
Okay, now for the $100,000 dollar question. How does this change our APS gearing? What kind of APS should be be shooting for?

Original response:

I don't think it changes our strategy for gearing attack speed at all.

The new AS damage scaling variant (2.6.5.58666) is very close 5 AS vs ~5.45 AS.

If you are looking to see if you should gear more or less based on this difference, I would argue you should gear even more, if anything, since previously we could likely hit the 11 FPA Breakpoint by just hitting about 4.91 AS. Now we have to hit 5 APS to get full benefit from the damage scaling.

EDIT (4/30/2019): I think I was wrong with the above - forgot the change from snapshot allows you to get more damage out on early cycles, thereby increasing on kill stacks, plus we are no longer bound by certain breakpoints. What this means is you can slot lower attack speed and get by almost the same.

EDIT (4/30/2019): For lower paragon, I will now gear with AS weapon, paragon, Gogok, and Zodiac worn (+1 AS affix), with Templar (for healing / AP regen).

For higher paragon (and with a nice ancient CoE especially), CoE worn with only AS weapon, paragon, Gogok and Enchantress works slightly better for solo push.

-----

You can argue for nephalem rifting and bounties you might need more via skills (such as stretch time) or on gear (maybe more AS affixes), because these game types don't provide as much density.
04/25/2019 08:41 AMPosted by Cratic
Gogok


Ugh. You've just reminded me I've been forgetting about Gogok IAS in all of my calculations up to this point. Whelp, doesn't change any major trends.
04/24/2019 11:20 PMPosted by Devastator
Just wondering why would people wanna push with this when meteor is clearly superior ?

Star pact is more difficult to play, and not everyone enjoys that type of gameplay. You have to also account for that it will gain the two ring slots next season, so PTR clears have been showing slightly higher for LoN Star pact than they would be without this bonus.

Also, why would anyone play a different build? They enjoy the playstyle, gameplay more.

Just as I'm sure there are a lot of players that enjoy the complexity, challenge, and impact of star pact, I'm sure there are going to be a lot of players that enjoy the ease of entry, dual use, aesthetic, feel, and complexity on the top end with Vyr Cold Chantodo.

Vyr Cold Chantodo has so many uses. It's very mobile if in a speed situation, but in a push, the opposite is true. Stack counts also wildly vary betweeen use case: Nephalems, Bounties, Speeds, Pushes. Think of the variety that all the different builds this combination is going to introduce.

I feel like Vyr Cold Chantodo will be an easy set for anyone to pick up, but very hard to master. That's a good thing overall.

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