Complexity in ARPGs going too far

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You can check out Chronicon in the mean time. It's indie ARPG that's like a mix of D2 and D3, quite fun game.
Complexity in Any aRPG is almost non existent if compared to old school cRPG's and DOS era dungeon crawlers. I an used to have many "pages" on my character sheet. Diablo 1/2 and PoE are very intuitive.

PoE passive skill tree is not complicated. Just search things that you wanna and plan ahead about how to reach the nodes.

PS ; D3 has no character building. Only setting gear and skills in a cod-like way...
Nah Grim Dawn isn’t anywhere as confusing as PoE. Google grim tools and you can play with builds. Don’t follow build guides that defeats the uproar of playing that game from the get go. They recently added a feature to the constellations where you can search which ones give bonuses to what you are striving for, elemental bonuses, pet, physical, ranged etc. makes that easier than reading through all of them. As far as the character skill tree it’s as basic as Titans Quest.

I’ll agree with you somewhat as I picked up Wolcen and it too seems more I tune with that garbage PoE crap.

D2 Uber basic skill tree, Titans Quest, Grim Dawn more of the same except synergies are nodes attached to main skill.
03/16/2019 08:06 PMPosted by clueso
However, if the gap is too big, it would become frustrating because the best builds are so much more efficient than the players favorite build, which basically makes the best builds mandatory.


agreed, but that doesn't debunk my post.
03/16/2019 09:13 PMPosted by RUNtoFUN
03/16/2019 08:06 PMPosted by clueso
However, if the gap is too big, it would become frustrating because the best builds are so much more efficient than the players favorite build, which basically makes the best builds mandatory.


agreed, but that doesn't debunk my post.

yeah, at first, but eventually they will try out other, new builds, rather than just the best ones and start playing the builds with the skills and items they actually enjoy and which suits their playstyle, assuming these builds are not that much weaker than the best ones.
Well I agree about D3 and PoE but I don't really see GD as being complex. I really see it being almost too much like D3 being simple and focused on set items but it feels better to me because playing legit without trading I don't get the full set and I end up subbing a yellow or green single rare item or maybe blue for something I'd ideally have a purple in. In D3, its just get a set, its too powerful that it has to be common and that makes it an obvious choice and it just makes the game feel simplier even though it might be almost as simple for itemization point.

Skill points obviously add a dimension that you cannot get from simple D3 skill system and its compounded by the item system but stat system sucks lol
03/16/2019 08:06 PMPosted by clueso
which basically makes the best builds mandatory.
This is true in the general case where better build always equals better reward. There could exist in theory a huge gap in builds and still a very tiny one in rewards depending how the build <-> reward ratio is constructed in the aRPG (D2 was much closer to this than D3).
I love PoE and have easily sunk 20+ hours into the synthesis league. I'm in the camp that this leagues' unique content isnt overly well implemented and i've spent most of my gametime doing everything but the memories/nexus that synthesis brings.

Thats the beauty of PoE tho, you may dislike the current content.. but the game is always evolving and leagues only run for 3 months (not 5 years *cough* RoS*). Eg - when the Beastiary league launched it was full of bugs and it turned out being one of the least liked leagues ever. GGG listened to the player feedback and completely reworked how the capturing mechanic was implemented and voila ! they've now rolled the reworked content into the core game, and its actually well done.

People either love or hate PoE and i've long since given up attempting to convince people otherwise..
03/17/2019 02:50 AMPosted by Skelos
03/16/2019 08:06 PMPosted by clueso
which basically makes the best builds mandatory.
This is true in the general case where better build always equals better reward. There could exist in theory a huge gap in builds and still a very tiny one in rewards depending how the build <-> reward ratio is constructed in the aRPG (D2 was much closer to this than D3).

That is right.
D2 had the issue of the difficulty being capped or at least that some builds were so powerful that they easily could reach the limit.

I am not advocating for infinite difficulty levels here, but rather that all builds are being decently balanced and that the highest difficulty setting is extremely difficult, even for perfectly equipped top builds.
03/16/2019 01:52 PMPosted by Kaelos
While I agree that D3 has too easy character creation and there is overall little to do, Path of Exile for example pushed it way too far and it currently became the top 'ARPG' which every other game is forced to inspire from because people overhype about it (been there too but it passed now and I'm glad). Now ARPGs feel more complicated than standard RPG and the whole point is lost.

Enormous passive skill tree is becoming a must have by people feedback but it is terrible and unnecesary complicated feature filled with +10 strength dots all over the screen. More and more plain stat types are being added to that game with each patch and for the third time I'm again seeing youtube clips with conclusions that league mechanics are not rewarding enough and worth playing at all.

It's supposed to be ARPG but people spend 60% or more of their time figuring out those stats, numbers, builds instead of actually playing. Multiplayer out there is dead and most of players play the game solo.

I recently checked Grim Dawn build list and just the same I got blasted by dozens of guides and it makes me just confused. This is not encouraging at all and I'm left with thoughts that I have no idea which one of those builds should I play and will give me fun.

I'm still waiting for that true Diablo 2 successor where complexity and fun of game is perfectly balanced and when I look at class I know what themes of playstyle and skills to expect from it and if it will give me fun but since everyone is inspired by PoE nowadays I guess I'll be getting more math simulators than true arpgs.

Warhammer Chaosbane will be the succesor you are looking for. I played the Beta and it was fantastic. They are doing so many things right regarding skills, skillpoints, talents and such. It feels like a true homage to the 90s rpg games, but with modern graphics.
03/17/2019 10:30 AMPosted by Mercy

Warhammer Chaosbane will be the succesor you are looking for. I played the Beta and it was fantastic. They are doing so many things right regarding skills, skillpoints, talents and such. It feels like a true homage to the 90s rpg games, but with modern graphics.


Too bad they only have 4 classes. That's kind of pitiful for an ARPG today.
Complexity is not a bad thing, it's merely a bad thing if you need it to complete a game. Sure players like to strive and achieve, but when you hit a level where in order to complete a FPS, you should only make headshots you loose the sense of fun.

PoE has this in terms of endgame, D3 has this in terms of GR pushing and farming.

Sadly it is part of player requests to test to see if they have reached optimal, so see how "good" they are compared to others.
03/16/2019 09:01 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
PS ; D3 has no character building. Only setting gear and skills in a cod-like way...

To me D3 has no character building on "Attributes" level is a true because attribute system had already been highly (or you can call it over) simplified. But I can still find character building on "Skill combo" and "Play Style" level ^^.
@OP

In my opinion this is a choice of taste ^^.

To me, ARPG is ARPG, I choose ARPG because I don't need to play as skillful as a true Action Game nor due with as many elements as a true RPG.

So I prefer an ARPG with ease Action and RPG portions.
03/16/2019 01:52 PMPosted by Kaelos
It's supposed to be ARPG but people spend 60% or more of their time figuring out those stats, numbers, builds instead of actually playing.


I'd love to know where you pulled this stat from...

03/16/2019 01:52 PMPosted by Kaelos
I'm still waiting for that true Diablo 2 successor where complexity and fun of game is perfectly balanced and when I look at class I know what themes of playstyle and skills to expect from it and if it will give me fun but since everyone is inspired by PoE nowadays I guess I'll be getting more math simulators than true arpgs.


You're looking for that magical game where you don't have to put any effort into learning how to play and be amazing at it...

Man, I'm so glad nobody is copying D3's failed game mechanics. Posts like this are the reason why games these days are dumbed down way too much.
PoE is as complicated as you make it. But yes to be a to be a really good player you need to learn a lot. And that's what makes it a great games for casuals and hardcore players. Meanwhile D3 has no option for a more complicated game with depth. It 100% caters to the casuals and no one else.
For a lot of people all that theory-crafting and studying is part of the fun. Different games for different people.
03/18/2019 02:15 AMPosted by Tetra
Posts like this
Actually this is a very productive thread.

Every game has:
1) Set of rules
2) Learning time for 1)
3) Skill factor

Note that 2) depends on the complexity of 1), but 3) does not depend on 1) or 2). For example, the basic rule set of Texas Holdem (hand strengths, turns and betting) is very easy to learn, but Holdem is a game one can master through his whole lifetime - it has extremely high skill factor and very basic 1) and 2). On the opposite are for example some tabletop games, which take days only to read the rules, but are very skill capped.

The optimal case for any game are basic 1) and 2), and complex 3). aRPGs does not deviate from this.

I already have in mind very good itemization, which comply with the above and I will share it on these forums after this thread fades. If some of you is skilled with Photoshop and enjoys making aRPG related pictures, we can present this itemization together so it is easier for the community to grasp the concept.
I don't think that either Grim Dawn or PoE are overly complex. When you know the basics of what makes a good build then it is easy to make a decent build that can at the very least make it to the point of being able to do end game mapping tiers 1-10 (low to medium tier maps).
03/16/2019 07:00 PMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
03/16/2019 05:59 PMPosted by Kaelos
overwhelming amount of stuff in PoE is tiresome.


So I wonder why a casual player such as myself that plays PoE does not find the content overwhelming. Is it that I am substantially smarter than you or are there other more plausible reasons?


Differing opinions is not an inability to understand.

Maybe your own biases tint your perception and opinions. Maybe you are more engaged by POE systems and that entertainment sustains your gaming experience. Maybe your definition of "casual" is different from what others might consider casual. Or maybe you just process the game in a way that entertains you more so than others (I hate Apex Legends while most people out there love that game right now).

Either way different people will have varying experiences. To say you are substantially smarter (or others are too stupid to understand) makes you sound like an elitist and does not help your argument.

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