PTR Patch Notes

Barbarian
Oops, I thought I was in the wrong Forum for a second there.
You know the saddest thing about the up and coming brand new Barb LON builds for me is, they will probably over power the Wastes set by a long shot, even if it is just for one lousy Season.
That is just a sad statement for a longtime "signature" Diablo build and it sucks big time!
04/01/2019 06:38 AMPosted by TuneOut
I asked if anyone really tried and no one knows with the new patch if it could potentially be better, with 2 ring slots open up for.


Tuneout, to the best of my knowledge, not too many people have "really tried" using a LoN build to push with Barb, because there hasn't been much evidence for it being very good. A lot of people used to play thorns LoN, but that build has received a lot less love in the past few patches than all our set builds have, and so it's fallen quite far behind. In season 17, the only major damage buff we'll really be able to throw on top is CoE, so that will probably add maybe 2-3 extra GR levels. LoN HOTA or LoN Whirlwind seem like the other 2 major candidates for pushing with LoN, but it seems unlikely to me that either of them will be as good as their set-based counterparts. I'd expect to see LoN Barb clears in S17 in the 122-127 range, if skilled players dedicate themselves to pushing hard.

If you can find any actual evidence for relatively high Barb LoN clears, let me know, and it's a pretty simple matter to calculate how high a clear might be possible with extra damage, more paragon, etc.

04/01/2019 06:42 AMPosted by Windigo
You know the saddest thing about the up and coming brand new Barb LON builds for me is, they will probably over power the Wastes set by a long shot, even if it is just for one lousy Season.


Well, not a lot of people play WW in season, since extra paragon is so helpful for that set. If somebody did get themselves up to the P3000 range, they'd most likely push higher with Wastes than with LoN. Wastes has cleared 130 non-season.
T16 you say? Hot Magma time!
03/31/2019 09:35 PMPosted by Free
03/31/2019 05:05 PMPosted by Dartok
...

It isn't an offense kind of thing for me. It is more of a why even bother posting it thing. We get it you have 0 excitement for this game and anything they do but why go out of your way to spoil it for people that aren't like you? Being realistic is a cop out excuse for a post like that.


If you got time to whine about this, Dartok, you need a(nother) job.

Yep you are right. Somebody post something super negative and I called them out for being negative I am clearly in the wrong here. I need to get on board with your thinking and just be bitter about everything. I will do my best in the future to emulate you since you are my real hero.
04/01/2019 09:34 AMPosted by Siladil
T16 you say? Hot Magma time!


That's the spirit!

04/01/2019 12:04 PMPosted by Dartok
I need to get on board with your thinking and just be bitter about everything. I will do my best in the future to emulate you since you are my real hero.


That's the spirit!
04/01/2019 09:34 AMPosted by Siladil
T16 you say? Hot Magma time!


Alpine, Divided and Sanguine hideouts need to be acquired first, no?

You know who will hook you up towards end of the league, right?
How dare you defile Hot Magma talk with discussion on a game that shall not be named? I've been annihilated with work but this change will make S17 interesting to mess around with LoN HotA, WW and Hot Magma. LoN HotA using CoE/Zodiac/BoM will most likely end up being the best of the 3 and although it will get blown out of the water by other classes it'll still be fun to mess around with.

We should start a petition to have them at least take a look at one or two bad legendaries to boost the performance of LoN HotA similar to what they've done with other classes.
I am happy for those of you who still find D3 fun. Honestly. I may come back one day, but for now I enjoy playing other stuff, that should not be named. Probably before I’ll get an itch to play D3, Lost Ark will come to Western Hemisphere, and that game got my attention long while ago.
Did this dude just provide a Wizard LoN build to prove LoN is viable in a discussion about how LoN sucks for Barbarians?
04/01/2019 09:34 AMPosted by Siladil
T16 you say? Hot Magma time!


Aye Oh!!!!

04/01/2019 02:41 PMPosted by S4v4G3
I am happy for those of you who still find D3 fun. Honestly. I may come back one day, but for now I enjoy playing other stuff, that should not be named.


^^Me a year ago

-Me today: Buy Low, Sell High. LET'S GO!!!

04/01/2019 03:36 PMPosted by Jako
Did this dude just provide a Wizard LoN build to prove LoN is viable in a discussion about how LoN sucks for Barbarians?


Did this dude questioned a Wizard who just provided a Wizard LoN build to prove LoN is viable in a discussion about how LoN sucks for Barbarians on a barbarian forum when he's a Crusader main?
yo am i missing something ? is there potentially something good coming our way?
04/01/2019 05:28 PMPosted by KingBenjamin
Did this dude questioned a Wizard who just provided a Wizard LoN build to prove LoN is viable in a discussion about how LoN sucks for Barbarians on a barbarian forum when he's a Crusader main?
Did I just get called a Crusader by a Potato!?
04/01/2019 06:27 AMPosted by Free
04/01/2019 06:19 AMPosted by TuneOut
Lon wizard rigth now is in the meta. With 2 ring slots open it can do better. Lon Spirit barrage.
Lon dart build could potential be very good with the updates.
Lon Necro, Lon Cap america crusader. Lon Bomb. etc.


You're in the Barb forum.

Find me a Barb LON build that has cleared 120, much less 130.

I'll give you a hint: there are none.

LON is not viable for Barbs.


I have cleared a 101 with my Thorns barb, using BoM instead of CoE, with paragon 1100.... now with the following additions, what potential do you think I could reach? Honestly asking because I have no idea. Hypothetically of course, because I don't play enough now to regear a good thorns barb during one season.

So let's say I hit 1500 paragon which should be about what I am after my seasonal P levels carry over, I transfer over two almost perfect weapons for it, I go from having around level 85 average augments, to all of them at about 115-120, and I add CoE and Stone of Jordan to the build? Seems like a really significant amount of damage... but I still guess that wouldn't add more than 10 GR's to my push? If that? I don't know.

I imagine if I had like 5000+ paragon like some of these people posting about the GR's they've done, it would make a pretty !@#$ing huge difference....
Thing is we never really know some builds potential, since not everyone has 8k paragon and willing to try different builds, other than Raekor HotA or charge barb
04/03/2019 07:01 AMPosted by PhreEk
04/01/2019 06:27 AMPosted by Free
...

You're in the Barb forum.

Find me a Barb LON build that has cleared 120, much less 130.

I'll give you a hint: there are none.

LON is not viable for Barbs.


I have cleared a 101 with my Thorns barb, using BoM instead of CoE, with paragon 1100.... now with the following additions, what potential do you think I could reach? Honestly asking because I have no idea. Hypothetically of course, because I don't play enough now to regear a good thorns barb during one season.

So let's say I hit 1500 paragon which should be about what I am after my seasonal P levels carry over, I transfer over two almost perfect weapons for it, I go from having around level 85 average augments, to all of them at about 115-120, and I add CoE and Stone of Jordan to the build? Seems like a really significant amount of damage... but I still guess that wouldn't add more than 10 GR's to my push? If that? I don't know.

I imagine if I had like 5000+ paragon like some of these people posting about the GR's they've done, it would make a pretty !@#$ing huge difference....


For thorns, you will still keep the BoM. You will get approximately 3 more level with CoE. And then the next best ring would probably be Stone of Jordan which would get your around 2 more levels. Add in another 10-12 GR for better augments, gem and strength for a 5k paragon play that would put this build pretty close to GR120.

Still a bit behind our other build but not terrible.
04/03/2019 07:01 AMPosted by PhreEk
I have cleared a 101 with my Thorns barb, using BoM instead of CoE, with paragon 1100.... now with the following additions, what potential do you think I could reach? Honestly asking because I have no idea. Hypothetically of course, because I don't play enough now to regear a good thorns barb during one season.

So let's say I hit 1500 paragon which should be about what I am after my seasonal P levels carry over, I transfer over two almost perfect weapons for it, I go from having around level 85 average augments, to all of them at about 115-120, and I add CoE and Stone of Jordan to the build? Seems like a really significant amount of damage... but I still guess that wouldn't add more than 10 GR's to my push? If that? I don't know.

I imagine if I had like 5000+ paragon like some of these people posting about the GR's they've done, it would make a pretty !@#$ing huge difference....


I think you would be very lucky to clear above GR 110, and I don't think most players will go that high. 400 extra Paragon is not likely to take you there, nor will a few higher Augments. I suppose you could grind and grind and grind and fish for the perfect rifts and eventually clear 110, but it's going to be just as much a slog as fishing with any other build, major, LON, or otherwise.

There's a misconception that having 5000 or 8000 Paragon is going to make a major different. The idea is along the lines of: We don't really know a build's potential until someone with 5000+ Paragon really tries to push it!

But that holds as much water as calling the Earth flat. If Frenzy Thorns or LON HOTA had as much potential as our major builds--even three-quarters the potential--someone with that much Paragon would be pushing them to their limits. The fact is, their limits are determined by their game mechanics, not by Paragon.

Consider Zodiac WW for a moment. Why is that build so much weaker than other major builds at lower Paragon? And why does it suddenly start to catch up when you add a few thousand more Paragon to the mix? It's not simply the added damage and Armor from main stat; Zodiac WW's mechanics allow it to exploit density in a way no other build can. The speed of Whirlwind mixed with the mechanics of Bloodshed and AD elevate its potential damage output, and its ability to heal is unmatched. The Wastes set offers free Dust Devils and 50% DR, At higher Paragons, all of the build's shortcomings are erased if there's proper density and play style.

Our LON builds suffer from mechanical deficiencies that can't be made up with Paragon or skill. Adding COE and Jordan to LON builds doesn't make up for the fact that LON builds inherently lack the many, many perks offered by set-based major builds. Look at IK HOTA vs LON HOTA. The IK set grants perma-Ancients and -Wrath (50% DR and damage respectively), and a massive damage multiplier. It also allows the incorporation of other sets: EW for DR and damage, and Istvans for IAS, damage, and Armor. On top of that, you still get Band of Might and CoE.

LON HOTA gets a nice fat damage multiplier and considerably less DR. And that's it. You have to make up the rest through gear. COE is a nice multiplier, sure, but Jordan is active only against elites and RGs, and even then it's usefulness is limited since you don't want to fight lone elites.

See where I'm going? You don't need 5000 Paragon to know the limits of LON builds. Barbs don't have the supporting legendaries to make LON shine.

TLDR: Doubt most LON builds will crack 110. Don't believe any will crack 115+. Barbs don't have the supporting legendaries to make up for LON's shortcomings.
04/03/2019 03:21 AMPosted by Jako
04/01/2019 05:28 PMPosted by KingBenjamin
Did this dude questioned a Wizard who just provided a Wizard LoN build to prove LoN is viable in a discussion about how LoN sucks for Barbarians on a barbarian forum when he's a Crusader main?
Did I just get called a Crusader by a Potato!?


That's POTATOKING to you Crusader!!
04/03/2019 09:00 AMPosted by Free
There's a misconception that having 5000 or 8000 Paragon is going to make a major different. The idea is along the lines of: We don't really know a build's potential until someone with 5000+ Paragon really tries to push it!


You get approximately 4.5x the damage at 6000 paragon and 150 level gems vs 1000 paragon and 100 level gems. I don't see how any reasonable person can say that isn't going to make a major difference.
I agree with you, Felix. Paragon obviously makes a difference. I also mostly agree with Free when he says:
04/03/2019 09:00 AMPosted by Free
You don't need 5000 Paragon to know the limits of LON builds.


Because the benefits of more paragon, higher gems, better augments, etc are all easily calculable. If a number of skilled players tried pushing with some LoN build at 1k-2k paragon, we could use their performance to figure out what GR they could clear if they were at 3k, 5k, or 8k paragon.

04/03/2019 09:00 AMPosted by Free
LON HOTA gets a nice fat damage multiplier and considerably less DR.


I... don't think it gets less DR, does it? At least not in S17 it won't. IK gets 50% from Together as One. LoN gets 52% from 13 ancient items. All other DR for both sets just comes from additional legendaries, right?
04/03/2019 11:22 AMPosted by Felix
You get approximately 4.5x the damage at 6000 paragon and 150 level gems vs 1000 paragon and 100 level gems. I don't see how any reasonable person can say that isn't going to make a major difference.


That's a good point, but I would ask you to consider that it's not always about the amount of damage but the way it gets applied.

For example, each Whirlwind tick does far less damage than a single IK HOTA (Smash) attack, even in density. But factor in the interactions with Bloodshed and AD and things swing the other direction. Then you factor in the Dust Devils, and, well, you get where I'm going.

Then you have to consider utility. It's far easier for Whirlwind to make use of Spear since it has unlimited mobility. That means Whirlwind has an easier time grouping density and moving quickly across maps, especially ones with bad tiles. In addition, consider how builds heal, how they mitigate damage in other ways, and how they deal with issues such as grouping density, mobility, and single-target damage.

My point is that looking at flat damage numbers isn't a good way to predict a build's end-game potential. Will the S17 LON buff make a "significant difference?" It's possible, but I don't think it's likely, and I think that's due to the variety of factors I outlined above and in my previous post.

04/03/2019 01:28 PMPosted by Rage
I... don't think it gets less DR, does it? At least not in S17 it won't. IK gets 50% from Together as One. LoN gets 52% from 13 ancient items. All other DR for both sets just comes from additional legendaries, right?


Factor in the perma-Wrath from IK. That's a hefty Dodge chance that stacks well with Veteran's Warning. Then factor in the additional Armor from Istvan's and the DR from Endless Walk, neither of which LON builds can acquire.

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