Season 17: Give some bonus for NON-ANCIENT items

General Discussion
04/01/2019 09:30 AMPosted by Aleks
04/01/2019 09:14 AMPosted by Pri
Basically I want to avoid having to farm a set to then farm legendary ancients. It seems counter intuitive to the season mechanic.


And thats a good point which I made too.

There won't be anything until quite later in the game otherwise. Nobody is asking to change the LoN items, but the buff could be spiced up a little since it's a seasonal buff. Some 10 or whatever % (let blizz decide) won't ruin anything just give a feeling that you are actually playing a season. Enough of the same start 17 seasons in a row.

Wouldn't dropping some ancients in the Haedrig's Gift boxes achieve the same effect without having to create a season-special variant of the LoN mechanic?
Well, after reading all the thread, it's true it can lead to a new experience for grinding. It's just that's this game feel already too rewarding. Being full legendaries is easy as hell...
But what numbers are we talking?

It's already super easy with Haedrig's gift, I don't want to be buffed as hell just because I looted random legendaries. I think it should be a lower state than full set or full LoN (Like farming T4/T5 with it.)

It's not I am completely against, but I am afraid to make this game easier again.
(Don't tell me to play Hardcore, I dare you, I double dare you.)

EDIT: Haedrig's ancient items feels kinda bad. If it's full RNG, some will skyrocket, others will have a "Meh" build. It would create to much inequality.
04/02/2019 02:03 AMPosted by Myst
It's not I am completely against, but I am afraid to make this game easier again.
(Don't tell me to play Hardcore, I dare you, I double dare you.)


This is why I'm offering to give 2 options, a freedom of choice. After the season has concluded we can talk about what aspects were right which were wrong. And maybe help blizz understand how they should implement seasons and how features would work. The % (10-15-20?) we talked about definitely not gonna make it that easy its just that it gonna give some flavor and the buff will be active 100% of time. To me it just feels as a more "fluent" buff.
04/02/2019 01:48 AMPosted by flarbear
04/01/2019 09:30 AMPosted by Aleks
...

And thats a good point which I made too.

There won't be anything until quite later in the game otherwise. Nobody is asking to change the LoN items, but the buff could be spiced up a little since it's a seasonal buff. Some 10 or whatever % (let blizz decide) won't ruin anything just give a feeling that you are actually playing a season. Enough of the same start 17 seasons in a row.

Wouldn't dropping some ancients in the Haedrig's Gift boxes achieve the same effect without having to create a season-special variant of the LoN mechanic?


Your idea is good and I understand how it fits this season. Yet there still remains a hole, what happens at the start? The season is all about that when u have nothing there is less incentive to play. We already had that last league with RORG. I didn't like it back then for the same reason but I didn't complain much. But if blizzard starts to take this route to force us to play quite a chunk before getting something out of the season... well, I'm sorry thats a little bit of a poor design or rather wasn't thought out to the end.

Give something early, mid, late. Everything is intact with the season.
You want to shorten the season to 2 weeks?

D3 season is easy enough as it is.
04/02/2019 05:21 AMPosted by Gurudas
You want to shorten the season to 2 weeks?

D3 season is easy enough as it is.


It's not gonna shorten anything really, it will just let you have a little bit of fun before the "REAL" grind starts. Maybe drive you away just a little bit from set items thus opening up more possibilities. And the buff itself is fundamentally driving you away from sets.

EDIT: You probably read first post only and we are talking here about a small buff, 10-15-20 or so per legendary.
It’s about choices not going through the same grind with some annoying set you don’t enjoy playing with.

It’s been asked for ages to make the Lon rings give some kind of buff for non ancient pieces. At the end of the day you’ll still be min maxing your gear to finish a complete ancient set.
04/02/2019 02:03 AMPosted by Myst
Well, after reading all the thread, it's true it can lead to a new experience for grinding. It's just that's this game feel already too rewarding. Being full legendaries is easy as hell...
But what numbers are we talking?

It's already super easy with Haedrig's gift, I don't want to be buffed as hell just because I looted random legendaries. I think it should be a lower state than full set or full LoN (Like farming T4/T5 with it.)

It's not I am completely against, but I am afraid to make this game easier again.
(Don't tell me to play Hardcore, I dare you, I double dare you.)

It really comes down to tuning. Unfortunately, class sets have been so disproportionately overtuned that it took massive multipliers for LoN to even come close. Don't let the big numbers impress you. Allowing standard legs to benefit from LoN wouldn't be as game breaking as many think. As I said before, it about giving you more alternatives to approach the grind in a satisfying manner.

This change still wouldn't address the fact the vast majority of LoN setups simply won't come close to class sets, but it would give you a reason to think twice before just dropping each and every legendary item you come across into the shredder just because it doesn't happen to fit with a class set as it happens right now.

This probably wouldn't be a meaningful change for everyone, though. A lot of people are laser focused on min-maxing all the things, and don't even care about experimenting, but for those of us that do, it would be a huge incentive to hop back into the game longer than what the seasonal journey lasts. I've personally stopped caring about the botterboards a long time ago, and I really like to try unconventional combinations to see what happens from time to time. Thing is, grinding for 11 decently rolled ancients takes forever, and the risk of the build just falling apart due to bad balancing is just too high to warrant spending so much time with it.

In the end, only a handful of LoN setups will manage to match what class sets can do, and then again, they will only do so after some thorough optimization which includes them being fully ancient/primal. Allowing standard ones to benefit from LoN with reduced potency won't kill that grind at all.
If you think about it, since the beginning, we've had a continuous stream of bonuses to non-ancient items. Loot2.0 was the biggest example.

The result is that we're now able to get past the first Torment difficulty.

It doesn't matter where we sit in the game damage-wise. We will always want more and faster. The thing that people have to realize is that it has to stop somewhere, if even for a little while.
I think some folks are still caught up in the "numbers for non-ancients".

I've stated multiple times that I'm not sure as to what the right answer here is.

The crux of the discussion is looking to be able to level with legendaries into decent torments and slowly move to end game torments by slowly upgrading each piece.

Once you find a build that "works" with legendaries, you can start doing the regular bounty grinds, etc to start to Kanai up some of your normal legendaries to ancients to push into higher torments.

It would make the journey so much more interesting than rushing a haedrig's set yet again.

I just want a different experience where when a legendary drops I don't think "hey look more forgotten souls" instantly.

I want to id the items and maybe... just maybe use a legendary I wouldn't normally use in a new and interesting way.

To the people that were saying "can't haedrig's just drop ancients for each slot?" to that I can only respond that it would probably cause a lot of complaints.

If some people got a ridiculous ancient weapon or ridiculous class-specific ancient it would basically eliminate a lot of further farming for that item slot.

Hence why I think it is valuable to have a non-ancient bonus to legendaries for the purpose of the season only.

If you look at the gameplay arch it would make it so players are constantly growing with their gear rather than farming a set to farm non-set items.

1) Level to 70
2) haedrig's gift part 1: Legendary items partial lon bonus
3) haedrig's gift part 2: legendary items (power grows slightly)
4) haedrig's gift part 3: legendary items (power grows a bit more)
5) Farm Torment 4-10 depending on legendaries
6) Start piecing together different builds with legendaries that make sense.
7) Bounties to farm mats to kanai's "good legendaries" into ancients
8) usual leader board, paragon, and augment grind..

If you make the LON grind the "end game grind" where only ancient items matter, then very few people will even engage in the season mechanic. It doesn't affect regular players while leveling or even in mid-tier paragon levels.

Without some sort of bonus to non-ancients, this season will basically have a fraction of the retention or interest than last season.

As an aside, I also think it would be in Blizzard's benefit if they released a season only leaderboard that specifically only ranks players with no set bonuses. This would also push the theme of the season even further.

I'm sure meta players will still grind a set to grind not-set items (for leader board purposes), but at least the average player can experiment with random legendaries and have fun doing it!
one bump to see if any other interesting points are made... and also with the hope of a visibility for the Blizz CMs
I dislike how there very few builds that can take a toon to high tier using the LoN seasonal buff. It looks great on paper but consider that not only do you need to farm out 13 ancient or better items each filling a different slot (except rings) you need to get the right ones to complement your build.

When D3 launched the idea was that players could create their own play style.. and LoN suggests that however there are still only a handful of builds that will take a character to high tier rifts, we are still stuck working the meta every season. I just don't see how much farther this game can go without major content additions.
Working toward LoN is supposed to be the end end end end game of Diablo 3. The point where you're so bored, you want to mess around with weird builds and still destroy the highest torments and high GRs. The time and effort needed to get the ancient pieces with the right rolls also adds a lot of prestige and self-satisfaction. Giving any sort of bonus to normal legendaries in LoN detracts from that prestige and accomplishment! It especially marginalizes LoN builds as now fewer pieces need to be ancient to have relatively comparable damage to 13 pieces... For example, the relative damage increase from 12 ancient pieces to 13 ancient pieces is ~8%. This shrinks if normal legendaries get a bonus.

Of course, LoN is not very compatible with temporary events like seasons! So, I'm not really sure where I would stand on this idea with respect to seasons. On the one hand, working toward LoN builds is really a lot of the fun and achievement of LoN, on the other hand, it can take a lot of time (even longer than a season!) to get all the right pieces as ancient and with all the right rolls! Especially some of the specialty amulets... And the LoN rings themselves!
Well, someone may have mentioned this, but the correct way to set up the Season would have been to disable or make unavailable all sets.

This would do two things: 1) it would alleviate OP's complaint about rushing to get a Set in order to farm for the non-Set LoN build, and, 2) it would prevent groups from rushing to Paragon levels in the thousands, and gem ranks and Augments in the hundreds, using Sets and the meta-of the month, all the while collecting relevant Primals, only to throw on wudijo's LoN Rapidfire build and place highly on the leaderboards.
06/02/2019 10:03 PMPosted by Slamboney
Well, someone may have mentioned this, but the correct way to set up the Season would have been to disable or make unavailable all sets.

This would do two things: 1) it would alleviate OP's complaint about rushing to get a Set in order to farm for the non-Set LoN build, and, 2) it would prevent groups from rushing to Paragon levels in the thousands, and gem ranks and Augments in the hundreds, using Sets and the meta-of the month, all the while collecting relevant Primals, only to throw on wudijo's LoN Rapidfire build and place highly on the leaderboards.


No you simply need to give the players an option. Non ancient Lon gives plays that option. If you want to simply farm the set for the season. Or ignore the set you don’t want to play and play your way.

People seem to be confused what options feels like since d3 never seem to give options

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