PTR Patch Notes Updated 9 April - Stash Change

General Discussion
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Poor Indie company that cannot develop a nice Modern Engine. We feel your pain Nev, no no no wait... We hear your pain.
Best regards.
04/26/2019 11:05 AMPosted by Nevalistis
Rewards would be earned twice,


We know up to 12 tabs is currently stable. You will add a 13th via seasons for S17.

Without Season tabs, we can get 8. So how about unlocking 2 (or 4) more non-season for those who don't have the old Season ones yet? Up the base number we can all get for gold is what I mean, not award them in non-season only. I am sure the game can figure out how many stash tabs we already have and fill in the missing ones up to the stable number of 10 (or 12). Then if people want the 13th they do this Season?

If stash tabs on account < 10 unlock remainder, up to 10, for gold in all game modes. If Stash tab => 10 only Season unlocks possible. That would up the base number for gold to 10 for everyone without going near the stability lines. Those who push every season and already have more than 10 would continue to earn the new season ones and still be ahead of non season stash wise.

The whole point is there is ZERO way to get more stash without playing Seasons. This is not ok, really it is not. If you can award it in Season and have it roll to non-season safely, you can just grant it in non season instead, right? Again, I have obviously not seen the code so I don't know if that is the case.

Even if not true, this makes it feel like Seasons are forced behind a major QoL players really really want. The perception (even if false) is that it is about engagement metrics and all.

I do appreciate you taking time to try to share the Dev's rationale and current thinking though.
04/26/2019 11:05 AMPosted by Nevalistis
Q: Why are we rolling out stash space with Seasons?

This was always our intent. The intended experience was to unlock tabs as part of the seasonal journey. We also now understand where the wheels fall off from too much load, and it can’t function the other way.


Here's the thing, you should have stated this from the beginning when you added those 5 additional tabs. Basically what you did was a bait and switch. You fooled us by telling one thing at first and then slapped across our faces by doing other. It's a very poor practise you did, something you can not afford when it comes down to PR, you are on a very thin ice.

Now I want to point out one thing. If you are adamant on keeping those additional tabs gated behind seasons, then you absolutely must grant tabs retroactively to the players who have reached Conqueror or higher more than 4 times previously. There is not a single valid excuse not to do so. There is no technical limitation preventing that. Do it!! Give us the tabs we already have earned!
04/26/2019 11:36 AMPosted by Kirottu
Here's the thing, you should have stated this from the beginning when you added those 5 additional tabs.


I agree wholeheartedly, and you'll find I've acknowledged that multiple times. This wasn't communicated to me clearly, and that miscommunication trickled down to the patch notes. We've since taken a huge step in overhauling our patch note process to avoid this kind of issue in the future.

04/26/2019 11:36 AMPosted by Kirottu
If you are adamant on keeping those additional tabs gated behind seasons, then you absolutely must grant tabs retroactively to the players who have reached Conqueror or higher more than 4 times previously.


This was another thing we proposed in bringing in player feedback. My recollection was that there were technical issues with this too, but I'll gladly bring it up again to see if I was mistaken. No harm in double-checking, but nothing I can promise.
Without Season tabs, we can get 8. So how about unlocking 2 (or 4) more non-season for those who don't have the old Season ones yet? I am sure the game can figure out how many stash tabs we already have and fill in the missing ones up to the stable number of 10 (or 12). Then if people want the 13th they do this Season?


When is everybody going to realize that blizzard doesn't care about non season. They just wrote the big post to tell you Fantasy story. To tell everybody posting here TO BAD TO SAD that is what you have and you not getting any more.

What did he say that if they give people more tabs in non season that it is going break the game. What a JOKE to tell you that. They are already gave non season people tabs. But now then can't.

All they have to do is make where you have spend a lot of Gold to get them. Crap I'll have about 70 billion in gold at the end of this season. Let me buy a tab at 10 billion. I'll never spend all that gold!!!!!.

If season people want to play season and do the season journey to get the tab for free let them, but charge the non season. Like she said give us even 2 is better then nothing.
There’s been a lot of conversation about stash tabs from PTR. We’d like to clarify the confusion and answer some questions regarding the changes and updates dealing with stash tabs.

*snip snip snip*

We recognize not everyone prefers Seasons, but we do want to emphasize that any Stash earned in Season does roll into non-Seasonal characters.


Thank you for the clarification, though many of it is hard to believe and I remain highly sceptical of anything that is posted by a a Blizzard representative - which is a sad state of affairs.

Anyway, this game and your company are dead to me from now on, as there are numerous better alternatives to any Blizzard game on the market nowadays and I don't feel reassured that you actually care about your games or gamers anymore.

Farewell and all the best for the future. さようなら。m(_ _)m
04/26/2019 11:58 AMPosted by BigRed
They are already gave non season people tabs. But now then can't.


To clarify further, we have to plan for the absolute worst case scenario, which are players who earn via both Season and Non-Seasonal. Those players shouldn't have their experience diminished because they went the extra mile. Nor should people who play with them in a party suffer a similar fate.

It's a big picture with a lot of moving parts. I hope it's more clear overall now.
So we can't have the 5 Stash Tabs now because it might cause issues... Yet eventually we can get all 5 Stash Tabs if we decide to grind for them on seasons. So once we obtain the 5 stash tabs over the next year+ its somehow not going to cause issues?

Kinda seems like a stretch at best, also seems like this is a "how can we stretch something players obviously want to the maximum point so we keep our MAU up until we think of some other way to do so."
04/26/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Solved
So we can't have the 5 Stash Tabs now because it might cause issues...


Apparently it WILL cause issues and they saw issues on the PTR in their analysis that caused them to be concerned about game stability.

04/26/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Solved
Yet eventually we can get all 5 Stash Tabs if we decide to grind for them on seasons. So once we obtain the 5 stash tabs over the next year+ its somehow not going to cause issues?


I think the difference is EVERYONE having all those stash tabs (all at once) vs a much smaller group who get them through Seasons over time.

I don't know all the tech details, but this is not the first time this has happened with stash space and game performance.

I am just SUPER frustrated about how this was first communicated in the patch notes and how it ended up being changed.

Unless we can convince Blizz to share all those tech details though, it leaves players like you or me, to fill in blanks with our own imaginations. Blizz rarely ever shares tech details, esp when they can't do something.
04/26/2019 12:35 PMPosted by MissCheetah
04/26/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Solved
So we can't have the 5 Stash Tabs now because it might cause issues...


Apparently it WILL cause issues and they saw issues on the PTR in their analysis that caused them to be concerned about game stability.

04/26/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Solved
Yet eventually we can get all 5 Stash Tabs if we decide to grind for them on seasons. So once we obtain the 5 stash tabs over the next year+ its somehow not going to cause issues?


I think the difference is EVERYONE having all those stash tabs (all at once) vs a much smaller group who get them through Seasons over time.

I don't know all the tech details, but this is not the first time this has happened with stash space and game performance.

I am just SUPER frustrated about how this was first communicated in the patch notes and how it ended up being changed.

Unless we can convince Blizz to share all those tech details though, it leaves players like you or me, to fill in blanks with our own imaginations. Blizz rarely ever shares tech details, esp when they can't do something.


I appreciate your post, I must not have seen the article about the know issues!
And people wonder why they need to move to D4 with a new game engine?
04/26/2019 12:37 PMPosted by Solved
I appreciate your post, I must not have seen the article about the know issues!


You have to go back years to the start of the game and each expansion. We have been asking for more stash space forever. We were told quite a few times that there were tech issues that made it really hard to do. As time went on, they did add two stash tabs with Reaper of Souls, two with Necro, and the 4 Season tabs. Still, that was a fine balance because D3 is built on a really old engine that does not handle all the data like updated, or modern engines do. (or so I understand but I am not a Dev)

What I am getting out of this right now, is that without a major game overhaul, rolling out that many stash tabs to EVERYONE, especially at once, trashes game stability. Not being able to play is worse than limited space I suppose.

A slow trickle of further tabs to a limited seasons audience reduces the game demands and buys time to continue working on fixes.

Again, I don't work for Blizz so I am only going off the collective history of the game, the PTR, and Nev's comments.
04/26/2019 11:05 AMPosted by Nevalistis
Q: Why can't we make stash space available to non-Seasonal players?

We explored options to make this happen, but it came down to a conflict in how Seasonal rewards roll into non-Seasonal permanence. Rewards would be earned twice, and we’d end up in the state of poor performance we’ve been trying to avoid.

We recognize not everyone prefers Seasons, but we do want to emphasize that any Stash earned in Season does roll into non-Seasonal characters.


Perhaps you could clarify a bit more on this. Currently, once you've unlocked the last stash tab for seasons, you are given no more in subsequent seasons (as of the current patch - 2.6.5 notwithstanding). That means there's a sanity check built into the reward system.

With that being the case, why then can't non-seasonal players get their stash tabs then? The sanity check is already in place. It should be impossible to earn the rewards twice if the season portion of the code is already checking for the max possible. That's entirely what sanity checks are for.

We'd appreciate it if you could ask for further details, because right now, we know the game checks what you've tallied so far and won't let you earn anything more once you're reached the maximum. So not allowing non-seasonal players a way of obtaining the stash tabs in their preferred mode of play currently makes no sense to us.

04/26/2019 12:35 PMPosted by MissCheetah
Unless we can convince Blizz to share all those tech details though, it leaves players like you or me, to fill in blanks with our own imaginations. Blizz rarely ever shares tech details, esp when they can't do something.


This is one time they may do very well to give us that info. As I noted above, the game already has a sanity check for max season tabs earned. You can't earn anything past that.

I'm also having a bit of a hard time believing the whole slowdown thing with regard to memory. That only happens if swap hits are occuring. RAM is RAM is RAM. If you have RAM available, it's all the same speed. The server would have to keep track of what all players in a party have in their stashes, but each individual client would not (and does not if the devs coded it properly). There is no point to the individual clients holding other players' stash info since you cannot access other players stashes, only your own.

The only group this really impacts in terms of RAM limitations are those players with <6 GB RAM. Those players will hit swap fairly consistently even with the current Live iteration of Diablo 3, as making it a 64-bit app increased the required RAM as well as the amount of RAM the app could access. But by the same token, a 64-bit app can access >3.5 GB of RAM at any given time, so if it's available to the client, it'll use it. The average RAM in most gamers' systems these days is 8 GB. The sweet spot for modern games is 16 GB. 32 GB if you multitask. But unless D3 is using a 32-bit database, there should be zero performance penalties outside of hitting swap or compressed RAM (OS X).

Something else to keep in mind is that a game like Path of Exile can handle a number of stash tabs far in excess of Diablo 3's allotment, and those can even be customized more fully than ours can here. I guarantee those tabs take up way more RAM than Diablo 3's do, especially the premium Quad Stash Tabs (4x the size of regular tabs, customizable name, customizable color).

So while I'm grateful Nevalistis came to us with some information, we're going to need a bit more meat to work with here, because something still doesn't add up. If we're that close to the point where the servers' RAM is being maxed out in their current configurations, then we need to be told that and/or something done about it. If the servers aren't hitting swap, that then leaves one of two things that would affect performance: IOPs (inputs/outputs per second), which is primarily drive array limited with regard to servers, and PPS, or packets per second, which would be increased the first time a client loads their stash tabs. Both can combine at the same time for a sizeable burst of slowdown salad, yes. But we need more clarification regarding that potential issue.

Putting aside any perception or reality regarding metrics, the information we have is inconclusive at best and we're going to need a much better explanation of the issue(s) Blizzard saw internally with the stashes, because as I noted, unless an individual's system is hitting swap, the game can hold as much in RAM as is needed and not suffer any performance penalty because RAM is RAM is RAM. Once downloaded from the server and stored, it's literally just binary bits in a DRAM cell.
Perhaps you could clarify a bit more on this.


There aren't a lot more details I can offer that I haven't already. There are a lot of limitations in play, many of which we have tried multiple times to overcome and couldn't find an effective way to do so.

04/26/2019 01:08 PMPosted by TheTias
I'm also having a bit of a hard time believing the whole slowdown thing with regard to memory.


You are making the assumption that this is a limitation to server RAM. This is, in no small part, due to the amount of RAM it taxes on the client side. That's something we don't really have control over.

Many of the questions and compromises the community has mentioned were brought up, investigated, and even some we thought could work tested. Sadly, the results weren't acceptable. The reality is that there is a cap for how much we can provide, and we're trying to get as close to that cap as we can without compromising the overall gameplay experience.

Edit: Fixin' typos.
04/26/2019 11:05 AMPosted by Nevalistis

Unfortunately, we will be unable to provide any additional stash tabs to console players, and we are limiting the number for PC to keep Diablo III the fast paced, loot explosion we all love.

[/quote]

Then do not list those stash tabs under Quality of Life improvements, because they are not. They are instead iimited to those players who choose to play Seasons and meet a bar that some either cannot reach or do not want to participate in Seasons to get them.

That's not QoL - that's exclusivity. Stash tabs are a baseline thing that should not rely on that level of exclusivity. QoL improvements would generally be those intended to improve things for all players; you are clearly stating here that you do not care about all players in this regard. I suppose you could try to argue that gating them provides QoL because of concerns over stability issues for the entire playerbase, but that *only* works if you are actually presuming that X% of the playerbase will never do seasons and thus never get any of the tabs. If everyone did seasons and earned all of the available tabs, wouldn't that lead to the issues you raise as being the current concern? With a shrinking playerbase anyway, there should be less concern over that as well. Obviously you're not sharing the numbers in terms of what the breakpoint is for there being issues, but simple logic would suggest that if those tabs are gated because everyone having them will cause problems, then if everyone got them through seasons, the possibility of those problems would still exist.

If it takes rolling them out slowly for non-season players, that's still a better thing than gating them exclusively behind seasons.
Nevalistis, I get it.

Appreciate the input.

it would seem to me that it would make more sense to gate to variable that rolls over to non-season, but making the unlock a non-season achievement.

Or better yet, an account wide variable that tracks time vested.

For example, time played per class would be a good indirect marker of gear load that would need QOL stash expansion.

If the hours from seasonal, rolls into the nonseason total, you could in essense unlock stash pending nonseason total time played.

Seasonal players, really don't need the stash for the most part at this point since they have unlocked all the stash as it stands. If they are waiting on the rollover for the stash unlock for the following season, it wouldn't affect them as much as locking them in seasons now.
04/26/2019 02:33 PMPosted by harlekin
Then do not list those stash tabs under Quality of Life improvements, because they are not.


I've actually already changed this for the live version of the patch notes. They'll be listed under "Seasons." So we're on the same page there. :)
While I understand what is being said, it still does not alleviate my disappointment with this situation.

Looks like I won't be earning any stash tabs.

Most of my dislike about having to earn them, is forcing us to do those damn dungeons EVERY season. Why can't they be made occasional like other rewards, rather than mandatory every single season?

I would rather have my teeth pulled then do dungeons, that's how bad they feel to me. I usually play through the 4 chapters and then I'm done for the season.

Maybe it sounds selfish, but frankly it sucks that they have to be gated so hard and so annoyingly time consuming to "earn". It's going to take many of us 1.5 -2 YEARS to unlock them all.

Game on.
04/26/2019 03:09 PMPosted by DTMAce
While I understand what is being said, it still does not alleviate my disappointment with this situation.


Same here.

On another thought, for those who've recommended gating stashes via some means in NS, there is a system already in place that would facilitate this like the season journey... it's the achievements system.

Nev, has this ever been considered?

Stash tabs could be given out for hitting 3000 APs, 5000 APs and then 6000 APs (i.e. 3000 required for the first one, 2000 more for the second, and 1000 more for the last)

You can gate the final two in seasons then but it would increase the total number of tabs NS players can unlock.
In a nutshell, the whole stash issue comes down to two things:

Client side RAM: The Recommended System Requirements for ROS:

Diablo III: Reaper of Souls Recommended Requirements

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+ 2.8GHz
CPU SPEED: Info
RAM: 4 GB
OS: Windows 7
VIDEO CARD: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 or ATI Radeon HD 4870
PIXEL SHADER: 4.0
VERTEX SHADER: 4.0
SOUND CARD: Yes
FREE DISK SPACE: 12 GB
DEDICATED VIDEO RAM: 512 MB

This suggests two things:

1. The RAM requirements were based on systems that were top of the line back in 2015. I can say that computer tech gets doubled every two or three years. By 2021, a 16 GB RAM system would be the average system, leaning toward below average.

2. An 11 year old game engine (Remember D3 was first worked on in 2008!) can only hold so much. It probably only has 8 GB of RAM and is limited by various factors and can't handle new/upgraded tech very well.

Recommendation for a new franchise game would be to use an expandable game engine that can handle heavy load times, as well as massive amounts of data transfers that would correspond to inherent patches/expansions to the new game. The community would like to be involved in what the game should have.

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