PTR Patch Notes Updated 9 April - Stash Change

General Discussion
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05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Nev,
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Yes they could do that but you know... it would have to be a new character slot per season you... cause MAU's. I mean performance issues. It's tricky.

:\
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.

In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.

In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).
A unwieldy bandaid is better than uncontrolled hemorrhaging.

A stash tab is 70 small squares. a character and their inventory is more than 80 squares. If an extra stash tab is worthwhile than an extra character slot is.

I know at the end of seasons that I am constantly logging in and out to get my gear on the right classes. Not ideal but something is better than nothing.
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).


If this is an issue, could we have a countdown timer
for Ubers, in the near future.
If doing Hellfire rings/Neck, we are constantly restarting too.
@thetias going to install poe tonight!

I agree with nevalistis that the root cause needs to be addressed.

We should have enough stash space right now if you use the current heroes slots as mules and level them to 70. Followers hold gear as well for storage.

The whole point of adding more stash is to make the armory and overall management easier. Adding more mules doesnt help.

That being said I do believe we should have enough character slots to each class in every mode. Hc season/non, SC season /non.
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.

In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).


Yes and in fact this goes back to when you folks had to change crafting eliminating the white items we used to need no? People logged in and out constantly to farm certain areas for those items.

Folks I think we need to accept the fact that this game engine was not made to anticipate the kind of load 5 more stash tabs would put on it. To bring it up to speed would cost more resources than it's worth. I believe Nev here and she has certainly replied enough times in this thread to show she means it. Blizzard is not out to screw us over they just miscommunicated when they announced the coming storage space.

Up to you whether you want to believe it or not, but I am moving on.
I'm sure that this will never be solved to the satisfaction of every player. It would probably require an internal code rewrite to solve in the absolute worst case scenario. Keep at it, though. It may take some time to fix, but given the community's interest in more stash, it'll be worth it.

If it is an inherent limitation of the current engine, however, would it be possible to "clone" the code to an engine that would be better equipped to handle the server load and enhance the game in other ways - like a new expansion? I ask because D3 does not deserve to be "stuck", in part, due to this situation.

What are legitimate means and ways to keep this game going? Sure, stash space is always going to be a hot button topic. However, there have to be ways to look at extending the life of the game that don't necessarily have to involve more stash space. Hopefully, we, as a community, with Nev's help, can come up with some ideas. Let's keep Season ideas in another topic and focus on ideas to help the devs keep the game fresh. Would a better, more efficient engine help?

I get that some of the issue is client side, but that puts the community, at least, partly to blame. I, like @TheTias, find that hard to accept. Everyone wants the game to get better by giving it tender loving support.
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
I see where this conversation is going and I understand the frustration. We all want there to be a different resolution. Unfortunately, we have exhausted our alternative options, at least for the time being. If that changes, you all will be the first to know.

We know how much the community wants this particular improvement, and it's why we tried so many different ways to make it work. I truly wish I had better news, and I hope that, despite the stumbles we've had, you enjoy the other quality of life improvements and changes Season 17 and Patch 2.6.5 have to offer.
To me, that sounds like you are admitting D3 is poorly coded, as others have suggested.
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.

In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).


Thank you for an update. Keep talking to us.

Are your D3 developers going to keep trying to rework the current stash management engine to add more stash space - at least up to 17 stash tabs you were going to add?
If current D3 dev team has restricted budget/time and will be not capable to resolve poorly coded stash management as a legacy from Auction House times - are you considering as an option to add at least additional 15 character slots per account to somehow resolve issue with the stash space?

We need stash space now. We can wait if you keep looking for better solution to extend stash space by reworking the engine. But if it is impossible because of limited budget or similar reasons - we will be more than happy to use extra character slots despite it is not very comfortable compared to extended stash space.
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/10/2019 05:46 PMPosted by Bastich
Nev, while ya here. How come China have more stash tabs? Do they have better RAM?


05/10/2019 06:20 PMPosted by harlekin
And what about the discrepancy with the ability to buy stash tabs given to players in China?


This is false. Diablo III in China is free-to-play, and players there have the ability to purchase the same maximum amount of tabs. All other regions are instead able to earn those tabs through Season. That is the only difference. The per-player maximum is identical.

I see where this conversation is going and I understand the frustration. We all want there to be a different resolution. Unfortunately, we have exhausted our alternative options, at least for the time being. If that changes, you all will be the first to know.

We know how much the community wants this particular improvement, and it's why we tried so many different ways to make it work. I truly wish I had better news, and I hope that, despite the stumbles we've had, you enjoy the other quality of life improvements and changes Season 17 and Patch 2.6.5 have to offer.


What changes? Yes, there is a few, but most of the patch changes are changed numbers. Barb still doesn't have an LoN build. DH barely scraped one into existence. Better cursors for bounties? Meh. The one thing I was looking forward to was the stash changes because I could finally have more than enough stash space.

Why not tell us openly exqactly what the issue is, and some players that are programmers could help you come up with a solution? This can't be this difficult.

I agree with the other poster. Raise the character limit if we can't get more stash space. You're losing a lot of players for 2 reasons: non seasonal players don't want to play seasons just for the stash space and some people have already quit because there's no point in playing a loot game where you have such limited stash space. I see why you say "calling it a bandaid fix is being generius" but I'd rather have 2-3 extra character slots than 1 extra stash space. You have no idea how long it's going to take to find a fix. Give us something.

D3 has been in maintenance mode for a long time and more stash space has been called for since d3 started. Why hasn't this been resolved yet?
05/13/2019 04:01 PMPosted by LocknLoad
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).


If this is an issue, could we have a countdown timer
for Ubers, in the near future.
If doing Hellfire rings/Neck, we are constantly restarting too.


I know if I farm for hellfire mats, I can clear all 4 portal ubers in under 5 minutes if I pushed it at T13. So yeah, restarting the game every 5-6 minutes is a bit annoying, granted.

I usually try to do multiple things, I might farm keywardens and run ubers, but it depends on my mood.

Obviously I want to farm them as fast as I can, (who wouldn't?) but time is important too.

I certainly don't miss how we used to do it:

Farm for Nephalem power ups by killing elite packs. (you would have to farm 3 elite packs)

Kill keywardens while the power up was active. (it only lasted I think 30 minutes)

Kill ubers while the power up was active. (if you didn't, they dropped less parts)

Fun times. NOT. THAT was a QoL that was worth getting.

So was doing away with time trials, individual GR level keys, and normal rift stones.

How about when they did away with identifying each legendary one at a time? AND even RARES had to be identified!?!?!

No one thinks of those QoL things that were added. Or the 4 different levels of crafting materials. The Tomes. The huge array of different health potions. Special crafting materials for crafting legendary items at the blacksmith. Low stack limits on MANY items. Tons of gem levels. Leveling them one at a time.

I could go on. There was a LOT of improvement.

But space apparently isn't one of them that we are going to be able to get. Its sad.

Game on.
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.

In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).


I'd love for you to get input from the devs into my post here:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20771407014?page=54#post-1069

And I'm fully aware I'm probably not taking into account every piece of metadata you guys probably track on items. I still can't think of any metadata + item stats that would take any significant amount of RAM or processing. What you guys are saying makes no sense to those of us who understand this stuff, it sounds ridiculous.

I'd love to know the full story, because what we have now doesn't make any sense. You're essentially saying the server shares the entire groups stash between the rest of the group, lagging them out. That makes no sense. Why would it do that? What on earth reason could justify the other 3 players in my team knowing what my stash content is, and me theirs? Am I misinterpreting your posts, because that sounds like a completely awful implementation?

It doesn't add up, and while I'm not holding anything against you personally by any means, but it's insulting and frustrating. And please don't feel like you have to lighten the reasoning for my benefit, I don't need an ELI5. I can assure you any depth of technicality that you want to get into, and can get into, I can understand.

Edit: For the record, I agree with you on characters... I'd rather have tabs. But, characters would be a mess. You would need too many of them, and from my perspective it would be a nightmare to manage my storage. It's just not a good option
Yeah, I'm not leaving D3 (sorry to disappoint), just not likely to do season 17 rebirth & journey. I will just stick with my old characters when I play. Still some achievements to earn.

05/12/2019 10:50 PMPosted by TheTias
05/12/2019 10:14 PMPosted by Futuron
Then, it turns out that the tabs are only for completing the full journey.


Unless they changed the reward structure, the stash tab is rewarded after you complete the Conqueror chapter, which is the second to the last. Only the wings and final version of the portrait are tied to Guardian (the last chapter).

Is it? I wouldn't know, I never go that far ;)
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
we have exhausted our alternative options


What if you add specialized tabs, tabs where you can put only one type of objects? they could be the objects that generate less problems (like those objects that can not have gems and that use "2 spaces")
Also you could modify some of the existing tabs to be of this type and put more specialized tabs.
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
This is false. Diablo III in China is free-to-play, and players there have the ability to purchase the same maximum amount of tabs. All other regions are instead able to earn those tabs through Season. That is the only difference. The per-player maximum is identical.


If true, thanks for the clarification. The Google Translate link I used did differentiate between "tab" and "page", so it definitely appeared they could get more. So since the players here got the "20" from what I "read" from that page, if my inference was incorrect, then I'll take the blame for the resulting backlash. Credit goes where it's due, be it good or bad.

But that still doesn't explain why the game client would sync the stash for everyone in a group when only items they picked up and are in their inventory could be traded (those items would have a timestamp for trade expiration and the player IDs for eligible players to trade to). That one I'm sure we'd love to hear about why that would be the case and how it's possible the game was coded that badly.

05/13/2019 04:07 PMPosted by Phatty
@thetias going to install poe tonight!


Do give it a try, but keep in mind that there are a few things Diablo 3 does better (netcode being chief among them). Also, be aware there is currently a bug on consoles where the loot filters are randomly activating and causing loot to "disappear" on its own, forcing you to hold L3 to view the loot and painstakingly use the right analog stick to "pick" among the loot on the ground. That gets super frustrating in Cavas' memory areas (you'll know what I'm talking about not to long into Act 1).

05/13/2019 04:01 PMPosted by Decipher
A unwieldy bandaid is better than uncontrolled hemorrhaging.

A stash tab is 70 small squares. a character and their inventory is more than 80 squares. If an extra stash tab is worthwhile than an extra character slot is.


I know of the issues Nevalistis is referring to. Diablo 3 had them early in vanilla's life. It forced Blizzard's hand and caused them to create a threshold for games created within a certain amount of time. The act of creating and disposing of instances that contain procedurally generated content isn't cheap in terms of server resources. It's the primary reason we can only run ten dungeons per hours in World of Warcraft (and those aren't procedurally generated like Diablo 3's non-static maps are).

Believe me, multiple repeated logins and logouts for the sake of moving items around would be far worse than even the supposed issues from too many stash tabs. Ultimately the issue needs to be addressed at its roots - the client syncing everything including the kitchen sink when there is no logical reason to do so (assuming it actually does do this).

Once an item is placed into stash, it should be made non-tradeable and thus not synced. Nothing in stash should ever be synced since only the originating character can ever interact with it.
But that is so simple to fix such a cringe-worthy bug, once you find that piece of offending code. Of course, it's difficult to find 2 lines of code in roughly 5 million.
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/10/2019 05:46 PMPosted by Bastich
Nev, while ya here. How come China have more stash tabs? Do they have better RAM?


05/10/2019 06:20 PMPosted by harlekin
And what about the discrepancy with the ability to buy stash tabs given to players in China?


This is false. Diablo III in China is free-to-play, and players there have the ability to purchase the same maximum amount of tabs. All other regions are instead able to earn those tabs through Season. That is the only difference. The per-player maximum is identical.

I see where this conversation is going and I understand the frustration. We all want there to be a different resolution. Unfortunately, we have exhausted our alternative options, at least for the time being. If that changes, you all will be the first to know.

We know how much the community wants this particular improvement, and it's why we tried so many different ways to make it work. I truly wish I had better news, and I hope that, despite the stumbles we've had, you enjoy the other quality of life improvements and changes Season 17 and Patch 2.6.5 have to offer.


Thank you for that clarification - I was using the information others had posted with respect to that.

HOWEVER: Within this there is essentially what seems to be a different logical discrepancy - why are they able to buy those stash tabs but ours are gated behind seasonal requirements? It still leads to the same basic issue that is being claimed as the reason for the limitations - that allowing everyone to have those stash tabs will create the supposed problems with performance. Now, I will admit I don't know what player numbers look like in China versus other servers, but even then, it still leaves the question regarding what would happen if everyone did go ahead and earn the current tabs through seasons - is that enough to lead to the problems that are said to be the barrier? And if not, why not release the formerly gated tabs to those who have not done the seasonal requirements, as they've already gone years without them at this point and thus those who did earn them earlier have already reaped that benefit?

A lot of the problem I'm having is that if X will 'break' the system, is X the number of players multiplied by the current limit or is X the expected number of players who will jump thru the hoops to get those stash tabs (multiplied by the current limit) and thus we could still break the system if more people go through the hoops? That's what doesn't make sense. It's unlikely that D3 is going to experience a huge surge in players anytime soon (unless there is something major in the pipeline we don't know about), so if the number for X is known, it seems like it becomes relatively simple math to determine how many stash tabs could be made available to everyone without gating. It's simply disingenuous to portray things as breaking the system if the per player max is the same across the board with the potential for all players to get those. There doesn't then seem to be any reason to continue gating the currently available tabs behind seasons - it doesn't serve a purpose that is apparent, at least. I realize some will say that removing the gating will diminish the accomplishments of those who have already earned those tabs through the season journey, but they got them sooner and have been able to use that benefit for longer. At this point, continued gating becomes an unwarranted obstacle, especially if there is some expectation that there will be new players getting into D3 in significant numbers.
I assume that having more tabs will be a selling point for D4, Not fix all the "issues" in D3 ,but have it fixed in D4, I was at first very happy with the announced extra tabs, but when I found out it was behind season journey . It became a big disappointment for me. Due to my lack of skill, I only get to Slayer each season, so the extra stash means nothing to me. I do wonder if there is some way to reduce from 2 slots to 1 slots for items.I assume when we have a 2 slot item,2 slots are used,so by having the items use less slots, will give us "more" slots, without increasing the strain on the engine.
05/13/2019 05:07 PMPosted by Hypersonic
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
I see where this conversation is going and I understand the frustration. We all want there to be a different resolution. Unfortunately, we have exhausted our alternative options, at least for the time being. If that changes, you all will be the first to know.

We know how much the community wants this particular improvement, and it's why we tried so many different ways to make it work. I truly wish I had better news, and I hope that, despite the stumbles we've had, you enjoy the other quality of life improvements and changes Season 17 and Patch 2.6.5 have to offer.
To me, that sounds like you are admitting D3 is poorly coded, as others have suggested.


For this to be true, Blizz would have to give a sound technical reason why four stashes have to be loaded on your computer when you are playing. We would also need to know when it was made that way. If it was during D3 vanilla due to the AH. Then there is the problem with the fact that RoS will be without the AH. So during the expansion it could've been changed to optimize it for the new expansion.

It would have to be just as good as the reason that City of Heroes gave when players begged them for power customization. The reason they gave was that they couldn't give it out quickly because the color, part of body, animation, sound, look (weapon), etc... was all baked into the power. Sure it might seem silly by today's standards but that is what they done.

I don't think that Blizz will tell us the reason. There are no doubt many reasons why.

If true
1.) They don't know why they did it that way. This would imply that they are stupid and incompetent.
2.) Don't want to spend the money changing it. That would make them greedy.
3.) Want to change it but don't know how. This is same as number one.
4.) Want to change it but their superiors (the suits) don't want them to change it. This shows that they don't have the power to change things.

Plus add in the fact that it makes no logical sense why four stashes have to be loaded on your computer.

If false, highly likely
1.) Don't want to give us more stash space due to money. That is because again of greed.
2.) Don't want to give out more stash space as seasonal rewards moving us to a full 17 tabs. This is because they are afraid we would learn of the lie that they told us about game stability when we unlock them all. They know that we would find out that the stashgate was all about boosting the monthly average user numbers which would make the suits happy.

This would have the problem of what would it mean going forward for the next four seasons if they done such a thing.
There *could* be another way: This is based on the assumption that most of the issues crop up during public games. In which case, making private games would seem to be prudent. Was there a test done wherein a public game vs. a private game with similar conditions as the public game? Just thinking out loud.

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