PTR Patch Notes Updated 9 April - Stash Change

General Discussion
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05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason


Then... How come you still didn't addressed the bad randomization on solo Greater Rifts yet? I don't remember players offered a good counter-measure to that. Is that because "reset on bad GR layout" supposed to be a sink for the keystones? Is it proper enough? Is it okay?
If that's the goal of your designers to diminish times the players reset their realm, I believe they did a petty job at addressing the real glaring issue of bad randomization on solo GR runs. That's some bad excuse there.

I know this issue only bothers people who try to push LBs, but that group is not limited to 500 people per leaderboard at all. There are people who try to enter it as well as trying to move up in the list. Character switches and realm resets been a part of this game since RoS when player only walks a straight path and never encouraged to explore anything.
That's not how you solve a problem, it's still an issue and shouldn't be an excuse for this kind of situation. Solo player just takes a peek inside and immediately resets the realm if it's not the monster-tileset layout they wanted.

Neph Glory is useless, Followers have no significant role, using shields off-class meaningless, targeting some monster types in GRs have no benefit, invulnerability frame skills are out-classed by mobility skills; that's not how you diminish bad RNG or realm resets by design.
By the least of expectations and laziest way possible; you could even make GRs roll the most desired layouts only by popular demand but you didn't. You could encourage exploration by a few design tweaks for players to spend more time on a single realm but didn't again.

Realm resets were a problem way before you decide to add in extra stash tabs or character slots. People use mule characters for years already.
You just had to recognize it first as an issue to solve it, which I saw no move about. Why should I believe realm resets would cause problems when it's the part of the game? Say, memory leak, overflow or something but don't give us that excuse.

Personally I couldn't care less about the stash tab as I hardly play anymore. Keeping the MAU is your experts' problem, not mine, but an unstable communication won't help. Seasons are long enough, more additions can be made slowly but please don't take it for granted.
I know WoW has a priority over Diablo, to keep active users but please think of the mutual players you may disappoint in the process as well. Update notes changed twice due to "technical issues" already, at least stick to this last scheme and don't take it away.
05/13/2019 08:49 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
For this to be true, Blizz would have to give a sound technical reason why four stashes have to be loaded on your computer when you are playing


Anything you find while playing in a group is tradeable within that group for 2 hours from the moment you identify it, right? So theoretically, every single item in your stash could be tradable to your partners, and their ID's have to be tagged on each of those items, and everything in their stash could be tradeable to you, and tagged with your ID. Maybe the game looks at every single piece of gear, and has to assign something to it with regard to the other players in the game, so it either assigns up to three ID's or three null values, and maybe the timer requires each item to be updated / checked each second, regardless of where it is, and regardless of whether it has null value or multiple player ID's linked to it.

And if you've jumped from public game to public game in a short space of time, that's a lot of items and a lot of players and a lot of timers that every player is linked to. IF - big if there - if that's something like how it works, you could see how theoretically giving everyone 5 extra stash tabs could cause 'technical issues'.
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.
I...already...do...this.
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
I see where this conversation is going and I understand the frustration.

You initially advertised five stash tabs, purchasable with gold. Then you changed the blog, without notifying players, that it would instead take five further seasons to obtain the tabs. Then you said giving us the tabs would cause game instability. Then you said it was a client-side memory issue. Then you said it was a client-side and server-side memory issue. Then you announced we'd only be allowed one more stash tab, available via season.

The frustration is with you constantly changing your story, offering a Quality of Life improvement only to take it away. Apparently, after the outcry on the forums you managed to determine, entirely internally, the maximum number of stash tabs you could offer without causing the instability. Why wasn't that done before you advertised anything to the public? Hell, you claimed that one of the reasons you extended Season 16 by two months was to work on Season 17. So, if the fault could be identified in a couple of days after our outcry, why wasn't it found in the two months before you posted the blog?

Let me guess, this is going to be another lesson learned in the ever improving communications pipeline?

05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues.

One of the biggest causes of logging out as one hero and logging in as another is to gamble bloodshards at Kadala. So, as has been suggested a load of times on the forums, why not add a drop-down to her that lets you gamble for a particular hero class, e.g. you're logged in as a Barb, but you change the drop-down to DH, so you can gamble for bows / crossbows, and so on.
Well put MB. This whole stash gate has been compounded by more bs on top of more bs.

Unless the blues have anything good to say they really should stay outta this thread cause they just keep digging a deeper whole.
05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
05/13/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Decipher
Has Blizzard considered extra character slots? This should not increase in game actors.


Calling this a bandaid fix would be generous. Stash management via muling is pretty unwieldy, logging in/out of several characters to find the items you need or have sorted in an even smaller amount of "additional storage." That would be a step backwards, not forwards, for very little benefit.

In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues. There are changes to the game we've made in the past specifically to discourage/reduce the need to log in/out repeatedly for this reason (such as changes to how bonus Bounties would roll/spawn in the past, or auto-closing the Vault without the need to log out).


So after the changes to the maps that made 90% of them unplayable for end game pushes, when every single player fishes for a good map and I mean literally keep leaving the game and going back in for hours to play 2 maps are directly causing server lags?
Then why we have so many unplayable maps? Or why do players need to leave the game to close a GR? Shouldn't that be the first thing to fix in the chain to remove the load from servers?
Wow, I never knew the stash tabs caused these kinds of problems. To me they were just numbers for the computer to process, very light compared to graphics stuff (again I must say I have zero game development knowledge).

I guess this would be fixable by releasing a offline mode for PC, yes? And allow people to mod the game
Having the Blues stay out of threads is also another concerning issue. If it wasn't for Nev, we wouldn't hear from anyone.

The basic bottom line is this:

Next time, be sure you have everything situated and finalized before releasing it to the public. What I mean is not entirely just the developmental aspects of a release, but the public notification of the fact. Make sure everything is thoroughly revised and edited. Make sure there can be no loop holes or ever enduring features that will get the public excited, only to be taken back by what many will call "misunderstanding or misrepresentation."

This stash tab issue caused so much more hassle than it should have.

Onto what MB said though, on World of Warcraft, when you check your collections tab you can select a drop down menu for each individual class and sub class. Something like this SHOULD be added to the game no matter the cause to reduce the login/logout stuff. As well, this game does not allow addons, I will say that in WoW side, an addon called "Altoholic" allowed players to view the inventory and currency of each other character on their account. That would also alot for less login/logout issues. Not necessarily an ADDON, but a feature. There are a ton of things that could be implemented to reduce so many other issues, HOWEVER by implementing new features, that could open the door to more issues so it's a catch 22, I understand.

Regardless, right now a stable development team, a stable social team, should be what is focused on so more content can still be produced on a fluent note while we wait for the next game in the series.

EDIT: Also, quick question, why is there no scheduled Maintenance on Diablo 3 this week? >.>
How about splitting the stash space.

Keep 5 tabs "overall tabs" like they are now, common for all characters. Here you can store Gems, Jewels, Rings, Amulets.... and items for exchange.

And make 5 tabs "character specific" and only valid for the currently logged in character. This would take up more databank space but imho reduce the client RAM problem as you have lesser stash tabs than before in one session AND in fact more stash at all. Win Win :)

Of course you would have to add a security alert if someone wants to delete a character then. Something like "Attention, deleting this character will also delete it's character spefific stash !!!"
05/14/2019 06:58 AMPosted by FusionX22
EDIT: Also, quick question, why is there no scheduled Maintenance on Diablo 3 this week? >.>


They don't need to take the game down to patch it anymore. That stopped years ago. The patch will go live while we are playing (if we are in game). Most likely later this afternoon Pacific time. After patch release they will post the final patch notes.

05/14/2019 06:46 AMPosted by Bastich
Unless the blues have anything good to say they really should stay outta this thread cause they just keep digging a deeper whole.


I disagree. I don't care if the news is good or bad, even though I prefer good news. I DO care that they communicate. That means posting even if we don't like what we hear. I would never discourage communication or shoot the messenger. That defeats what we ask for - transparency.
I don't understand how having additional stash tabs on my character impacts other players I am in game with. They cannot view my inventory or stash, so why does their client even need to know what is in there. This seems like a horrendous and obvious design flaw that should have been corrected a long time ago.

Basic programming 101, never load anything into memory that is not relevant to the program at that time.

There is no reason for the contents of my stash to be in memory when I am not in town, and the only thing that should be loaded into my clients memory for other players is the minimum amount of information needed to render them visually, and the data to display the damage they do.

Do the developers for the different games at blizzard talk to each other? I am quite sure that World of Warcraft does not keep bank contents in memory for every character in a group or raid while playing.

I understand the demands of a console game may be different when multiple people are playing on the same console and not over the network, but that should not be placing a limitation on what you can do for the PC version of the game.
05/13/2019 11:13 PMPosted by Meteorblade
05/13/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Nevalistis
I see where this conversation is going and I understand the frustration.

You initially advertised five stash tabs, purchasable with gold. Then you changed the blog, without notifying players, that it would instead take five further seasons to obtain the tabs. Then you said giving us the tabs would cause game instability. Then you said it was a client-side memory issue. Then you said it was a client-side and server-side memory issue. Then you announced we'd only be allowed one more stash tab, available via season.

The frustration is with you constantly changing your story, offering a Quality of Life improvement only to take it away. Apparently, after the outcry on the forums you managed to determine, entirely internally, the maximum number of stash tabs you could offer without causing the instability. Why wasn't that done before you advertised anything to the public? Hell, you claimed that one of the reasons you extended Season 16 by two months was to work on Season 17. So, if the fault could be identified in a couple of days after our outcry, why wasn't it found in the two months before you posted the blog?

Let me guess, this is going to be another lesson learned in the ever improving communications pipeline?

05/13/2019 03:52 PMPosted by Nevalistis
In addition, logging in and out repeatedly creates a different kind of server tax and has a high likelihood of causing a different set of issues.

One of the biggest causes of logging out as one hero and logging in as another is to gamble bloodshards at Kadala. So, as has been suggested a load of times on the forums, why not add a drop-down to her that lets you gamble for a particular hero class, e.g. you're logged in as a Barb, but you change the drop-down to DH, so you can gamble for bows / crossbows, and so on.


This exactly. It doesn't add up and reeks of them adding the stash tabs, then some level of management finding out and saying "No guys, you can't do that!" and left the devs and Nev holding the bag on figuring how to deal with the community.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is a technical issue. But if there is, what we've been presented so far doesn't explain it and leaves more questions than answers.
05/14/2019 07:41 AMPosted by MissCheetah
05/14/2019 06:58 AMPosted by FusionX22
EDIT: Also, quick question, why is there no scheduled Maintenance on Diablo 3 this week? >.>


They don't need to take the game down to patch it anymore. That stopped years ago. The patch will go live while we are playing (if we are in game). Most likely later this afternoon Pacific time. After patch release they will post the final patch notes.

05/14/2019 06:46 AMPosted by Bastich
Unless the blues have anything good to say they really should stay outta this thread cause they just keep digging a deeper whole.


I disagree. I don't care if the news is good or bad, even though I prefer good news. I DO care that they communicate. That means posting even if we don't like what we hear. I would never discourage communication or shoot the messenger. That defeats what we ask for - transparency.


Thank you for the clarification on the matter MC! Also, the 2nd part is exactly what I was trying to say in the first part of my post. Communication is key, and having any sort of news, regardless of what it entails, is communication period. We prefer to have that rather than the radio silence.
05/14/2019 07:06 AMPosted by Kitchmann
And make 5 tabs "character specific" and only valid for the currently logged in character. This would take up more databank space but imho reduce the client RAM problem as you have lesser stash tabs than before in one session AND in fact more stash at all. Win Win :)

This (and/or class-specific tabs) has been suggested a few times and does look like a good solution to the problem they reportedly encountered. Better than adding more slots for mule accounts at any rate.

@Nevalistis: Could you tell us if something like that has been discussed yet?
05/13/2019 09:39 PMPosted by naksiloth
If that's the goal of your designers to diminish times the players reset their realm, I believe they did a petty job at addressing the real glaring issue of bad randomization on solo GR runs. That's some bad excuse there.


This is something that I didn't think about due to the fact that I never had to fish to clear a GR. Which is because I have never pushed to get on any of the LBs or climb them. Still a very good point nonetheless.

05/13/2019 09:49 PMPosted by spacecadet13
Anything you find while playing in a group is tradeable within that group for 2 hours from the moment you identify it, right? So theoretically, every single item in your stash could be tradable to your partners, and their ID's have to be tagged on each of those items, and everything in their stash could be tradeable to you, and tagged with your ID. Maybe the game looks at every single piece of gear, and has to assign something to it with regard to the other players in the game, so it either assigns up to three ID's or three null values, and maybe the timer requires each item to be updated / checked each second, regardless of where it is, and regardless of whether it has null value or multiple player ID's linked to it.

And if you've jumped from public game to public game in a short space of time, that's a lot of items and a lot of players and a lot of timers that every player is linked to. IF - big if there - if that's something like how it works, you could see how theoretically giving everyone 5 extra stash tabs could cause 'technical issues'.


Even your take makes no sense simply because you would have to keep everything you find for that two hour window with the idea of trading it at the near the end of the two hour window. You would have to be on a team that is speed farming for gear and paragon to start with.

I do believe that if I were to team I would know what the other members in the party are looking for and the same goes for them concerning me and the rest. As soon as we find something that is good enough to trade then the trade would no doubt happen ASAP, instead of near the end of the two hour window. Everything else that isn't needed would be salvaged. It gets even more interesting when you do a lot of hopping from team to team. If you don't trade and salvage ASAP then you personal stash could be either loaded up with junk or other players that could've benefited from playing with you gets nothing other than the experience and the gear that they did find that could be useful to them.

It then shows just how incompetent Blizz is at designing a game. They cannot design their system to handle the trade within the two hour window where it all goes down server side. So your computer never has to have the other three party members stashes on loaded on your computer.

The frustration is with you constantly changing your story, offering a Quality of Life improvement only to take it away. Apparently, after the outcry on the forums you managed to determine, entirely internally, the maximum number of stash tabs you could offer without causing the instability. Why wasn't that done before you advertised anything to the public? Hell, you claimed that one of the reasons you extended Season 16 by two months was to work on Season 17. So, if the fault could be identified in a couple of days after our outcry, why wasn't it found in the two months before you posted the blog?


This is one of the reasons why I am not totally buying the story. I do believe that Nev was fed the story by her superiors. One of her superiors must think we are extremely gullible enough to buy it hook, line and sinker. I think Nev will tell them we are not buying that line. I think her superiors know we are not dumb enough to fall for such company BS like that.

Let me guess, this is going to be another lesson learned in the ever improving communications pipeline?


What pipeline, the Pa Kettle one where it is "I'll get around to doing that one of these days." pipeline.
People we can cry here all we want. Blizzard is saying TO BAD TO SAD. If you want the tab play season if you don't TO BAD TO SAD you don't get them. They are going to tell anything & everything to you.

Now what if everybody had played and got all 5 tabs. Wouldn't that have caused memory or performance problem? People they are blowing smoke up your butt.

They want you to play seasons so they can say look more people are playing it. They are trying to save the seasons because every season is becoming a bigger joke than the last one.
05/14/2019 06:54 AMPosted by Achilles
Then why we have so many unplayable maps? Or why do players need to leave the game to close a GR? Shouldn't that be the first thing to fix in the chain to remove the load from servers?


This is not only true for fishing for the right GR. It is also true for doing ubers to farm for a good hellfire amulet.

The solution for the ubers would be doing the same as is done for the Vault. Thirty seconds after picking up the organs the area closes. For GRs they could even have a way to close the current GR from the by speaking to Orek or some button on the Obelisk

05/14/2019 06:58 AMPosted by Lito
I guess this would be fixable by releasing a offline mode for PC, yes? And allow people to mod the game


Offline mode would cause more problems than it would solve. Pirating for one among many others that I don't want to talk about.

05/14/2019 07:41 AMPosted by MissCheetah
I disagree. I don't care if the news is good or bad, even though I prefer good news. I DO care that they communicate. That means posting even if we don't like what we hear. I would never discourage communication or shoot the messenger. That defeats what we ask for - transparency.


Agreed even if that news is bad or as in this case a bunch of company BS. There is no good reason for three other party members stashes to be loaded on my computer if I were to play on a four party team. If true it just shows how incompetent they are at game design. They cannot design a system where their own servers handle 99% of the game. Where they got to bog down the client with things like other party members stashes.

05/14/2019 08:14 AMPosted by FlyerMM
I understand the demands of a console game may be different when multiple people are playing on the same console and not over the network, but that should not be placing a limitation on what you can do for the PC version of the game.


This would be a sad sort of funny if it were true. That is because it is saying that this PC game was originally designed for consoles even though it plays on the PC. What a way to prove it, also proves how bad the devs are at designing a game. Can't tell the difference between console and PC. Maybe we need to give them the phone numbers of devs that are way better at designing games for the PC. They do have phones right.

05/14/2019 08:30 AMPosted by Coreinsanity
This exactly. It doesn't add up and reeks of them adding the stash tabs, then some level of management finding out and saying "No guys, you can't do that!" and left the devs and Nev holding the bag on figuring how to deal with the community.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is a technical issue. But if there is, what we've been presented so far doesn't explain it and leaves more questions than answers.


That is the whole point someone in the higher ups (suits) decided it was a no go with five tabs. So they tell Nev to spoon fed us a story that they hope we will be gullible enough to buy it hook, line and sinker. If we don't buy it, then they just hope that the problems that it causes will eventually die out. Trouble is though we have been through many of those sorts of things in the past.
05/14/2019 09:46 AMPosted by BigRed
They want you to play seasons so they can say look more people are playing it. They are trying to save the seasons because every season is becoming a bigger joke than the last one.


Wasn't Themed Season suppose to help seasons by increasing the number of people playing. Maybe it did increase the number. But not nearly enough for a long enough period of time.
05/14/2019 06:58 AMPosted by FusionX22
Next time, be sure you have everything situated and finalized before releasing it to the public.


Wholeheartedly areed. This has been, by far, the biggest lesson. Where we erred was that we thought we were at that stage when, in truth, not enough testing had been performed at that time. There was a miscommunication that happened there and we're being much more precise about the level of certainty needed before we communicate future changes moving forward.

The frustration is with you constantly changing your story, offering a Quality of Life improvement only to take it away.


Admittedly, the situation has changed by necessity through testing and discovery that what we initially had proposed wasn't feasible. The story itself hasn't changed, though—we've continued to offer further and further transparency regarding the situation, including what we can and can't do, looking into suggested alternatives, and explaining why some aren't possible. The conversation is rapidly growing to an end point, however; there's little more I can share and, as I've mentioned, our action items have been exhausted (at least for now).

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the outcome or our technical limitations (the game is 7 years old by release date, but older including announcement and even earlier development time). Regardless, I do hope that the insight is welcome, even if the outcome itself isn't ideal. Communication and transparency has been at the top of community requests. We're doing our best to uphold our end of the deal there, even if we're not able to meet or fulfill every community desire.
05/14/2019 10:07 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Wasn't Themed Season suppose to help seasons by increasing the number of people playing. Maybe it did increase the number. But not nearly enough for a long enough period of time.


That might be right but at this point in time there might be more people non-season. People just got sick of starting new over & over again. Plus what do you really get?

The only area that seasons works is HC because nobody plays non-season. If anybody plays it the % is very very low.

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