[2.6.5] (S17) Changes + Builds

Wizard
05/15/2019 02:04 PMPosted by Melancholy
Thx cratic for your kind and helpful answer :)

Good to hear you were able to decide. I took another look at LoN Star Pact. I think Star Pact is closer to about 4 GRs higher, considering that Vyr does have such potential to excel with a perfect rift.
  • Vyr Chantodo might be pushed as high as solo GR136 in season.
  • LoN Star Pact might be pushed as high as solo GR140 in season.

Just a guess based on top clears last season and PTR clears.
05/14/2019 09:48 PMPosted by Venaliter
Why Flash instead of Force Armor? Won't you be a bit too squishy, for no real reason? Doesn't it eat Zodiac procs? I could see it if you had OoiD in there, but you have Furnace instead.

Flash eats at most one zodiac proc before being reset, but also procs zodiac once. In the worst case scenario it is net zero, and if it doesn't soak, it's positive as far as resetting archon quicker.

It also benefits stacking Chantodos. Each cast of EB can add 1 stack to Chantodo's.

So you stack Chantodo's quicker and also reset archon quicker. There are a few downsides:
  • EB:Flash eats through arcane power like nobody's business. If you are engaged with low density you can go OOM if you overcast.
  • Also, without teleport you have to ensure you are nearby enemies when you exit archon, or this will ruin any gain you were trying to attain in the first place.

It's a playstyle adjustment.

Toughness lost from armor is provided by the supports. In addition, in a speed setting you get more on-kill stacks than you would usually, especially in a group, because the other wizard will be feeding you these archon stacks.

This helps the toughness. The only questionable rotation is the first one within the rift.

Not having that extra buffer is not everybody's cup of tea, that's for certain, but if you're looking to push the limits of group speed, that's what you have to do.

It's probably good to point out here that the Wizards don't have to run the exact meta build to still perform well in a group speed setting.

It's probably good to point out here that you don't have to run the exact meta build to still do fairly well in a group speed setting.


Fair enough. I wouldn't risk the one shot potential for a skill that adds trivial damage and maybe a stack of Chant's, which is likely redundant. Death is far, far more disruptive.
05/15/2019 03:27 PMPosted by Venaliter
Fair enough. I wouldn't risk the one shot potential for a skill that adds trivial damage and maybe a stack of Chant's, which is likely redundant. Death is far, far more disruptive.

I agree, that's why if I do run in group with Vyr Chantodo, it will be some other variation likely.

Side note: it's one Chantodo's stack per EB cast. I was seeing about 4-5 casts outside archon on the solo build that has Flash. This supplied about 4-5 Chantodo stacks each rotation. The ones that land after archon still stack up for the next rotation. It's a good amount.
05/15/2019 12:18 PMPosted by TrvAix
Ouch... getting the 5.1% chance to knockback on hit, on the Storngarm Bracers, will not be easy

Agreed, but the impact is huge, as enemies have a higher chance to be knocked back from that as compared to other builds (high proc coefficient attacks at 5 APS), and that knockback can help with damage when your Swami overlap is at it's peak in damage. The BH debuff will only last up to about 7s into archon.

We don't run Strongarms in the solo builds and speed builds because other bracers are great for toughness, especially if you're running CoE and not Karini.
05/15/2019 12:18 PMPosted by TrvAix
Question: Do you get the rune selected for the skill "slow time" on the Archon bubble? If not, what do you snapshot it before going into Archon? That might be tricky. Otherwise, how is this skill best used?

Yes and No. You get all the archon runes from the Vyr 2pc, but do select the right rune for your element. Bugs section in the OP for more detail.

You have to select a rune on slow time (non archon skill bar) for the archon's slow time to inherit that rune.

That said, if you do have a build that includes Slow time on the skill bar (usually it's either the Stretch Time or Time Warp rune), that rune can benefit doubly from casting both forms of the spell (cast outside archon, enter archon, cast slow time in archon). Note that after ~15s the non-archon instance of the slow time would end, however.

Stretch time snapshotting works for the beam, but won't work for the dynamic punch or dynamic nature of the Chantodo's AS damage scaling (up to the 5 APS cap).

This makes that strategy less advantageous now that this is the case (and also when you're already at >=5 APS), but if you have a pull spot you know you're going to be in for awhile, and your stack count is low or you just lost Gogok stacks, yes, it could benefit all of those things.

Cast right before entering archon so Zodiac doesn't soak into the cooldown if that's the situation.
Has anyone recently tested slow time bubble stacking mechanics from multiple wizards in a party? I know that a normal bubble and an archon bubble casted by 1 wizard will stack, thereby granting 20% IAS (Stretch Time) or 30% monster debuff (Time Warp) while under 2 bubbles.

Assuming a 3 wiz composition using slow time, how much total IAS/debuff can be gained by standing under 6 bubbles (2 from each wizard)?

I’ll try to test myself later but just wondering if anyone already knows the mechanics.
05/15/2019 04:21 PMPosted by mcdundee
Has anyone recently tested slow time bubble stacking mechanics from multiple wizards in a party? I know that a normal bubble and an archon bubble casted by 1 wizard will stack, thereby granting 20% IAS (Stretch Time) or 30% monster debuff (Time Warp) while under 2 bubbles.

Assuming a 3 wiz composition using slow time, how much total IAS/debuff can be gained by standing under 6 bubbles (2 from each wizard)?

I’ll try to test myself later but just wondering if anyone already knows the mechanics.


It would be likely two wizards. So you'd have four bubbles. I'd probably have ALL them being Time Warp. The attack speed is likely already capped with the amount of archon stacks you have.
I'm cramming so much info just a few days before season lol! I hope I retain this.
05/14/2019 09:48 PMPosted by Venaliter
Why Flash instead of Force Armor?
Yes it eats a Zodiac procs, but it also generates Zodiac proc on each cast ;-) Keep in mind that Zodiac does not have an ICD - it procs on each "spending damage instance" on the first Hit. So on average EB is +/- 0 when it comes to overall procs it eats/generates - so "Archon" reset time is roughly the same. EB doesn't have a casting animation, hence you can cast it while channeling, which makes building up Chantodo stacks A LOT faster; you can gain 20 Chantodo stacks in 2-3 Seconds with AT + EB, while it feels like 5-6 Seconds with only AT. In Summary, EB is in the build only to quickly get back to 20 Chantodo stacks. Also, while you have multiple EBs queued for "Explosion", transforming into Archon does not cancel your queueed up EBs. Hence you'll gain "EB zodiac" procs and "Chantodo Stacks" while Archon is active (for your next rotation - it's the same with the "mid-air" AT projectiles but it's much more noticeable with EB).
05/15/2019 04:21 PMPosted by mcdundee
Has anyone recently tested slow time bubble stacking mechanics from multiple wizards in a party?
Yes. It's a bit convoluted though; here is the short version:

  • Archon Bubble and Slow Time Bubble are completely separate Buffs. While Archon Bubble will give the same effect of the rune selected on Slow Time, the buff itself is not the same.
  • Each Wizard/Target can be affected by the same buff exactly once.
  • Those are the rules. Archon Bubble IAS + Slow TIme Bubble IAS is stacking on all units, because it's two different buffs (but they have the same effect); having a second Archon Bubble IAS or a second Slow Time Bubble has no effect.

    I'd advise for each Wizard to run a unique Slow Time rune, if multiple Wizards are in the group (and if you are expected to be always within 1 screen of each other). If you splitfarm, go for the self-centered IAS Bubble.
    05/16/2019 09:48 AMPosted by sVr
    05/15/2019 04:21 PMPosted by mcdundee
    Has anyone recently tested slow time bubble stacking mechanics from multiple wizards in a party?
    Yes. It's a bit convoluted though; here is the short version:

  • Archon Bubble and Slow Time Bubble are completely separate Buffs. While Archon Bubble will give the same effect of the rune selected on Slow Time, the buff itself is not the same.
  • Each Wizard/Target can be affected by the same buff exactly once.


  • Is that the same for DE-buffs, like Time Warp?
    05/16/2019 09:43 AMPosted by sVr
    05/14/2019 09:48 PMPosted by Venaliter
    Why Flash instead of Force Armor?
    In Summary, EB is in the build only to quickly get back to 20 Chantodo stacks.


    Okay, I get that. I often find that I have my 20 chantodo's stacks by the time I cooldown Archon, though. This is something I'd have to test. What is the potential I get one shotted by a spear?
    05/16/2019 11:32 AMPosted by Venaliter
    What is the potential I get one shotted by a spear?
    Anything will kill you/proc you when entering the first Archon. Afterwards you are "close to being invincible" and the squishiest party member will be the zNec - he will get eaten alive quite frequently. Once you ramp stacks, are good.

    The only thing that really kills you, is when you desync your Archon click with the other Wizard. You are behind 2-3 Seconds, he clicks while you still reset and he wipes the entire screen (Oculus + Blackhole + CoE-Cold) before you were able to fully reset (AT projectiles still flying) and suddenly you don't have any targets to hit. That's when you loose Archon stacks (didn't get the stacks from killing all the trash) and you can't reset anymore. That (or the next rotation) is when you will die. The only to survive this is to ask the other Wizard to hold off with the Archon click on next rotation.
    05/16/2019 11:29 AMPosted by Venaliter
    Is that the same for DE-buffs, like Time Warp?
    IIRC we tested this on PTR and it was like this for Time Warp. Just generically speaking this is not always the case. For Instance "Hex:Toad of Hugeness" was played in Twister meta, however, the main reason why it was so "broken" was, because the first "lick" of the Toad would apply a 25% debuff, which actually stacked with itself additively. So spamming the toad like crazy before the Archon click was "the way to go". Most groups believed that people rotated this skill in "to have the Toad randomly pull in more monsters" for additional AD - this was one purpose. The main purpose, however, was to significantly increase the the Wizards damage on the single target RG (by several tiers). That was a secret kept well hidden for a long time especially considering that the "bottleneck" back in the days wasn't the "rift", it was the boss fight.

    So to answer your question in a long and convoluted way: No, you can't really say "debuffs stack" or "don't stack". You have to test it for each individual debuff.
    05/16/2019 09:48 AMPosted by sVr
    05/15/2019 04:21 PMPosted by mcdundee
    Has anyone recently tested slow time bubble stacking mechanics from multiple wizards in a party?
    Yes. It's a bit convoluted though; here is the short version:

  • Archon Bubble and Slow Time Bubble are completely separate Buffs. While Archon Bubble will give the same effect of the rune selected on Slow Time, the buff itself is not the same.
  • Each Wizard/Target can be affected by the same buff exactly once.
  • Those are the rules. Archon Bubble IAS + Slow TIme Bubble IAS is stacking on all units, because it's two different buffs (but they have the same effect); having a second Archon Bubble IAS or a second Slow Time Bubble has no effect.

    I'd advise for each Wizard to run a unique Slow Time rune, if multiple Wizards are in the group (and if you are expected to be always within 1 screen of each other). If you splitfarm, go for the self-centered IAS Bubble.


    Thanks for this. I did a little testing last night on the IAS rune, which is easy to test in town with multiple wizards. Regardless of whether you're under 2 bubbles or 6 bubbles, the maximum IAS that can be gained from Stretch Time is 20%.

    Stacking of debuffs like Time Warp are harder to test, would require some amount of trials to baseline dmg with no bubble, with 1 bubble, 2 bubbles, 3 bubbles, etc. Same with the 25% dmg reduction rune. I guess it might be problematic to have uncapped stacking of bubbles, esp with Crown of the Primus.

    Is znec really better than just adding a 3rd Chantodos wiz?

    05/16/2019 12:29 PMPosted by sVr
    The only thing that really kills you, is when you desync your Archon click with the other Wizard. You are behind 2-3 Seconds, he clicks while you still reset and he wipes the entire screen (Oculus + Blackhole + CoE-Cold) before you were able to fully reset (AT projectiles still flying) and suddenly you don't have any targets to hit. That's when you loose Archon stacks (didn't get the stacks from killing all the trash) and you can't reset anymore. That (or the next rotation) is when you will die. The only to survive this is to ask the other Wizard to hold off with the Archon click on next rotation.


    This is an issue with Chantodos speeds with randoms, which is actually a significant part of the playstyle. If the wiz are not synced in their archon phases it messes things up a lot. Every kill that happens while you're outside of archon is a dps loss for your next cycle. Some wiz tend to transform to archon immediately when entering a GR, without getting 20 chantodos stacks, I guess they are worried about dying before the first rotation. By the time I get 20 chantodos stacks the other wiz is halfway through his cycle. And from there on out we're each getting far fewer stacks than we could/should be getting. And as you mentioned, it's much harder to reset once the density is wiped. If the wizards can manage to stay reasonably closely synced it is a huge benefit to clear speed.
    Is znec really better than just adding a 3rd Chantodos wiz?
    The only reason is the bossfight unfortunately. With a zNec + 2 Wiz you kill the boss in one rotation (and it takes significantly longer than LoN Mages killing a boss), with 3 Wizards it takes atleast 2 rotations (which feels terrible in comparison to LoN Mages). Elsewise the zNec doesn't bring too much to the party, but he shortens the bossfight consistently by 20 seconds.
    Some wiz tend to transform to archon immediately when entering a GR. By the time I get 20 chantodos stacks the other wiz is halfway through his cycle.


    Solo, I go immediately into Archon, I have zero chance of surviving without it immediately
    05/16/2019 04:09 PMPosted by Venaliter
    Some wiz tend to transform to archon immediately when entering a GR. By the time I get 20 chantodos stacks the other wiz is halfway through his cycle.


    Solo, I go immediately into Archon, I have zero chance of surviving without it immediately


    Yeah for solo push I might do that if there happens to be a pile of mobs and dangerous affixes right at the entrance to the GR. That is a fine strategy too, I was just noting that Chantodos group speeds can be optimized by agreeing on the strategy, i.e. both wiz pop archon immediately or both wait for 20 stacks then pop archon, as a way to stay reasonably synced and get maximum benefit from on-kill stacks.
    05/16/2019 04:09 PMPosted by Venaliter
    ...

    Solo, I go immediately into Archon, I have zero chance of surviving without it immediately


    Yeah for solo push I might do that if there happens to be a pile of mobs and dangerous affixes right at the entrance to the GR. That is a fine strategy too, I was just noting that Chantodos group speeds can be optimized by agreeing on the strategy, i.e. both wiz pop archon immediately or both wait for 20 stacks then pop archon, as a way to stay reasonably synced and get maximum benefit from on-kill stacks.


    Agreed.
    Hey we are also getting decent results with an Impale DH instead of zNec.
    Running GR 120 in average ~4:30 min (3:30 on good maps) and group is not fully optimized.
    Pros:
    Boss dies rly fast + both Wiz dont need Stricken
    Some extra Stacks from DH kills
    Help to finish Elites (like a blue moving out of WoD radius)
    High mobility with Chain of Shadows to help pull/scout a little

    I think stronger groups could do ~122 in ~4 min average.

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