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05/06/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Free
This wouldn't help much against trash, but it would be a huge benefit against elites and the RG.

Sorry, I don't agree with this statement.

I mean, mathematically, No.

1) Rend can proc area dmg;
2) it would NOT be a huge benefit, it actually has the same type of formula as a "plane"-buff, when against boss.

General result: Any Health% based buff has same type of formula as a normal buff when BotS equipped.

E.g.
Ruthless vs Berserker Rage
Without BotS: 9.3% vs 25%(depends)
with BotS: \sqrt(1.093)-1 vs \sqrt(1.25)-1;

Proof. (based on college level-real analysis, by JustinFan in 2015).
05/06/2019 03:58 PMPosted by JustinFan
Sorry, I don't agree with this statement.

I mean, mathematically, No.

1) Rend can proc area dmg;
2) it would NOT be a huge benefit, it actually has the same type of formula as a "plane"-buff, when against boss.

General result: Any Health% based buff has same type of formula as a normal buff when BotS equipped.


I think there may be a misunderstanding.

The part you quoted me is in reference to this:

05/06/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Free
I've long been an advocate of something like this: Rend's damage per second is increased by XX% of an enemy's max health. Or, put another way: Rend deals XX% increased damage based on an enemy's maximum health.


So, say Rend deals 1100% weapon damage (it's much more due to the Wastes set, but let's go with this) over 5 seconds. My proposal is to increase that number by a multiplier based on a percentage of the maximum health of an enemy.

Let's use a low number--say 2.5%. And let's assume we're fighting an RG with 1,000,000,000 hit points.

So, take the maximum health (1,000,000,000) and find 2.5% of it. The weapon would apply that number (25,000,000%) weapon damage as a multiplier to Rend damage against that specific enemy. But against mobs with much less health, the bonus would be much smaller; since the multiplier is based on a monster's maximum health--a static number--the bonus would be impressive even as the monster takes damage and loses current health.

As you can see, an item that offered 1-4% as a variable to the legendary affix I'm suggesting would make Rend very powerful against elites and RGs, but much less powerful (though still worthwhile) against trash mobs.

I'm not sure why you say that this would be trivial against RGs and elites.
I think there may be a misunderstanding.

Ah. I got it...should be a misunderstanding.

05/06/2019 07:47 PMPosted by Free
So, take the maximum health (1,000,000,000) and find 2.5% of it. The weapon would apply that number (25,000,000%) weapon damage as a multiplier to Rend damage against that specific enemy


But in this way, the boss will be killed within constant time. The dmg grows almost exponentially as GR level increase.

Rend will become a overpowerful RGK skill?
05/06/2019 08:18 PMPosted by JustinFan
But in this way, the boss will be killed within constant time. The dmg grows almost exponentially as GR level increase.

Rend will become a overpowerful RGK skill?


We could be so lucky ;)

To a degree, you are right: With my example, Rend's damage will scale with an enemy's HP, so it will always be very effective against RGs. But since it's a DOT, it would never work as a group RGK.

However, there are ways to moderate this. For example, you could base Rend's dynamic multiplier off an enemy's current HP, which means Rend would start strong, but ultimately only work as an assist: Rend's damage per second is increased by XX% of an enemy's current health.

You could also base it off a player's Vitality to incentivize gear rolls and Paragon distribution: Rend's damage is increased by XX% of a player's maximum Life.

There are many ways to offer a scaling damage mechanic to Rend with a single item.
It's a common misstep to assume Rend has to be used with a 2H Weapon to be useful. You just need 2x the bonus damage from skills/items to offset the missing weapon damage range.

i.e. Bul Kathos average weapon range is what, 2,000? Furnace is what, closer to like 3,700? That 2x damage is important. But then you just need to remember to slap another 2x multiplier somewhere on another item.

But this also means it's important to make Wastes 6 a part of buffing Rend to encourage Dual Wielding synergy with Whirlwind. Otherwise you might run into weird issues with 2H Weapon use and R6 imbalance issues or something.
From all I can think of, 2h wastes would have a severe fury generation issue, which would leave it only to Bul Kathos swords anyway. Unless, somehow, fury regen is adressed and/or some 2h weapon with Rend rolls in it, that's how it will play out.
Well, you spend Fury much more slowly with a 2H weapon, so it's not as big an issue as you might think. If you were running wind shear I don't think you'd have a problem.
05/07/2019 04:32 AMPosted by Hadd
From all I can think of, 2h wastes would have a severe fury generation issue, which would leave it only to Bul Kathos swords anyway. Unless, somehow, fury regen is adressed and/or some 2h weapon with Rend rolls in it, that's how it will play out.


You are correct. Even Rage's suggestion to use Wind Shear wouldn't work since you would be forced to give up Blood Funnel, and thus your best source of healing.

You would still need the Zodiac ring and PE to keep up IP and Wrath (unless they build a similar form of DR into Lamentation to synergize with Rend), and thus your attack speed is still getting jacked periodically through the rift. You'll also move a lot slower. One could drop Whirlwind for Furious Charge and stack Life per Hit, but then you won't reset Zodiac quickly.

Getting a two-handed build to work with Wastes/Rend is a long shot, bud. Best to let that dream sail off into the sunset. But it might be possible to revive the 4x Rend build that used IK6+Wastes4.
Since we're talking about Rend, let's look at some numbers for how much damage Rend does in the WW set. It's quite possible I'll make a math error somewhere in here, so if those of you in the know can check my work, I'd much appreciate it.

For a Primal Ancient 1H Mighty Weapon, average weapon damage is 2105.
For a Primal Ancient 2H Mighty Weapon, average weapon damage is 3633.

Rend deals 1100% weapon damage over 5 seconds, or 220% weapon dmg/sec.
Wastes (2) increases this to 1320% weapon dmg/sec.
Wastes (4) triples this, so 3960% weapon dmg/sec.

So 2105 * 39.6 = 83k dps
Or 3633 * 39.6 = 144k dps

Meanwhile, Whirlwind deals 340% weapon damage, per hit, and Dust Devils deal 180% weapon damage, per hit.

Wastes (6) increases all Whirlwind damage by 10,000%, i.e. to 10,100% total.
So Whirlwind is dealing 34,340% weapon damage per hit, and Dust Devils is dealing 18,180% weapon damage per hit.

The Skull Grasp ring increases Whirlwind damage by 400%, so *5
So Whirlwind is now dealing 171,700% weapon damage per hit, and Dust Devils is dealing 90,900% weapon damage per hit.

So WW deals 2105 * 1717 = 3.6 million damage per hit
And DD deals 2105 * 909 = 1.9 million damage per hit

And unlike Rend, WW scales significantly with attack speed. WW itself and DD have different breakpoints, but I'll just throw out a rough estimate and say that when pushing a GR, you'll be hitting with both WW and DD about 4x/sec.

(3.6M + 1.9M) * 4 = 22M dps

22M / 83k = 265 , and 22m / 144k = 153. In other words, assuming dual wielding 1H weapons, Whirlwind does 265 times as much damage as Rend in the Wastes set. If you were to use a 2H weapon to try to get more Rend damage, you would still be doing 1/153rd as much damage as you would if you just stuck with WW and dual wielding.

A disparity this size can't be made up with a single legendary item. If you were just going to apply that level of bonus (26,500%) to, say, Ambo's Pride, somebody would use it in a LON build and run around slaughtering everything. Even splitting this bonus up between two different items would mean that each item had to increase Rend damage by 1500% (multiplicatively), and you would still run into the LON problem.

The only solution is to make Wastes (6) 10,000% bonus apply to Rend as well, which I know others have suggested before. You could also have Wastes (6) buff Rend at a lesser level than the buff to WW, but since LON can achieve a 9750% buff, lowering the Wastes (6) Rend buff amount and trying to bridge the gap with supporting legendaries will result in some probably overpowered LON Rend builds.

A 10,000% buff would leave Dual 1H Rend doing 8.4 M dps, and 2H Rend doing 14.5M dps, which is close enough to the 22M dps for WW that the gap could then be fixed with a supporting legendary. It might mean that people actually use Lamentation, as the double-stacked Rend would do damage comparable to WW during the bulk of a rift, and considerable damage to the RG, since the Rend damage would not be contingent on density x PE stacks x Bloodshed, in the way WW is.
05/07/2019 09:57 AMPosted by Rage
A disparity this size can't be made up with a single legendary item.


Great analysis, but you've missed a few points.

First, the Wastes set extends Rend's duration to 15 seconds, but I believe that damage is based on the percentage broken up over 5 seconds from the base skill. In other words, we calculate damage per second from the skill (1100% / 5) and that amount will tick every second for 15 seconds: 220% weapon damage.

Wastes 2 increases that by 500% additively: 220 + 500 = 720% weapon damage per second. At least, this is how it should work based on the language of the set bonus.

Wastes 4 is a 3x multiplier to this new base: 720% * 3 = 2160% weapon damage per second.

Obviously this is a paltry sum. What happens if we amend Wastes 6 to buff this? We get 2160 * 10,1000 = 21,600,000% weapon damage per second. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be a fairly ludicrous number.

So what if we don't amend Wastes 6 and instead bank on a supporting legendary?

Let's take Jako's proposed affix and plug in some variable affixes: Rend deals 20-25% increased damage per bleeding enemy in 20 yards. We'll use the maximum possible affix value (25%).

You can, even in poor rift conditions, pack 10 mobs into this radius, so let's use that in the calculation: (10*25)*2160 = 540,000% weapon damage. Not enough. So let's buff the affix variable and use 75%: (10*75)*2160 = 1,620,000% weapon damage.

Still not enough. So let's cut to the chase and find an affix value worth plugging in to make Rend viable next to Whirlwind. To do that, I'll use your Whirlwind damage values

So WW deals 2105 * 1717 = 3.6 million damage per hit
And DD deals 2105 * 909 = 1.9 million damage per hit


(10*100)*2160 = 2,160,000% weapon damage per second.

(10*150)*2160 = 3,240,000% weapon damage per second.

(10*200)*2160 = 4,320,000% weapon damage per second.

The final value calculated with a supporting legendary affix at 200% would mean Rend ticks for 4.3 million damage per second over 15 seconds.

I've gone over the math for my other ideas above, but I think you get the gist.

On a side note, this discussion makes you realize how horribly executed was the intended design of the Wastes set. The 2-Set bonus should have jacked up additive bonus much, much higher, the 4-Set should have offered some form of DR based on bleeding enemies, and the 6-Set should have multiplied both Whirlwind's and Rend's damage accordingly.

Edit: I see the downvote trolls are at it again LOL
05/07/2019 11:03 AMPosted by Free
First, the Wastes set extends Rend's duration to 15 seconds, but I believe that damage is based on the percentage broken up over 5 seconds from the base skill. In other words, we calculate damage per second from the skill (1100% / 5) and that amount will tick every second for 15 seconds: 220% weapon damage.Wastes 2 increases that by 500% additively: 220 + 500 = 720% weapon damage per second. At least, this is how it should work based on the language of the set bonus.


I got my info on this from Nubtro, here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/17084748985#post-3

I'm not 100% certain, but I would guess that Nubtro personally verified this.

05/07/2019 11:03 AMPosted by Free
Obviously this is a paltry sum. What happens if we amend Wastes 6 to buff this? We get 2160 * 10,1000 = 21,600,000% weapon damage per second. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be a fairly ludicrous number.


It is a ludicrous number, but that's because the math is wrong here. It's not 2160 * 10,100. It's 2160 * 101. Which gives you 218,160 % weapon damage per second.

I'll reiterate that if you insist in packing a huge Rend bonus into a legendary, then we really aren't even having a Wrath of the Wastes conversation anymore. We're having a LON conversation, and a ludicrous one at that!
05/07/2019 11:23 AMPosted by Rage
It is a ludicrous number, but that's because the math is wrong here. It's not 2160 * 10,100. It's 2160 * 101. Which gives you 218,160 % weapon damage per second.

I'll reiterate that if you insist in packing a huge Rend bonus into a legendary, then we really aren't even having a Wrath of the Wastes conversation anymore. We're having a LON conversation, and a ludicrous one at that!


Ah, good. Math has never been my strong suit (or any of my suits, for that matter).

But we're certainly not having a LON conversation. I remain focused on the core problem of the class: the lack of supporting legendaries. In the case of Rend, it's already buffed by a set in which it is at odds with the other spotlit skill. I'm not opposed to any solution that fixes the problem, but saying it can't be done through a supporting legendary is simply not true, particularly when the build under discussion still relies on Furnace in the Cube.
I just checked on the Wastes (2) bonus in game, and it does indeed make your Rend damage 6X (i.e. 100% base + 500% buff).

I'm all for better supporting legendaries… but I'm not sure you're following what I'm saying about Wastes and LON.

I double checked my math and I'm pretty sure I'm right about the relative damage of WW and Rend using the Wastes set. WW does 265 times as much damage.

To remedy that, you need Rend to do 265 times as much damage, i.e. a 26,400% buff.

If you create a legendary item that makes Rend do 26,400% increased damage, then yes, that will certainly fix the problem for the Wastes set.

But then people will use that item in a LON build, at which point, using the previous Rend damage figures...

3960% weapon damage / sec * 265 (new 26,400% legendary item bonus) * 98.5 (9750% LON bonus) = 103,365,900% weapon damage per second. Which, with 1H weapons, would mean you were doing about 2.2 billion dps with LON Rend, compared to Wastes WW's current 22 million, or about 100 times as much damage. These are, as you put it, ludicrous numbers. I'm pretty sure this LON Rend build would do enough damage to solo GR 150.

And it doesn't matter much whether you put that legendary bonus into one item or split it up between 2 or even 3 items. They'll still get stuffed into a LON build and produce a hugely overpowered result.

Actually, I'll go one further, now that I think of it:

In order to be viable, ANY damage dealing Barb skill MUST receive a minimum ~10,000% bonus from SET items.

Why? Because if the set bonus to that skill is less, then the skill does little damage and nobody uses it. If all of the damage bonus comes from legendary items, then they will be incorporated into a LON build which will be extremely overpowered. This 10k% set bonus need not come only from one set, of course. For instance IK HOTA gets 4000% from its base set, Endless Walk doubles this (so now 8000%) and the Istvan's swords add another 30% (total 10,400%).
Is there a class fantasy you feel isn't very fulfilled right now? Something you really want to be able to do with a class, but just isn't possible?


When I think of Barbarian itself, I think of pure brute strength. Someone who can take a hit and dish out 10 times harder.
I'd definitely want to see something towards a bloodlust rage. If you take enough damage or if you activate a cooldown or something, you go into a bloodlust rage where you take maybe like 10-20% increased damage but deal 100% more damage. Idk the numbers, just the idea.

In regards to changing the builds we have now. I really like MOTE the best. There are a lot of different ways and even different abilities you can do with MOTE. Plus, jumping and smashing down on enemies is aesthetically pleasing.

If they built lut socks passive of jumping multiple times into the set, that would fill up another slot, which if RORG Season showed us anything, it isn't enough to make the build really viable.

If they changed the way stricken stacks worked, it would make the build stronger in solo push. I like that, there's been many times where I've made it to the RG with 3-5 minutes left and I missed the timer because it just takes so long to kill a RG with MOTE.

Maybe there should be an item that makes MOTE more single target oriented. Top builds on every class, are builds that do very well against single target.

I'd actually prefer the build to be more pack viable. Maybe even a trash killer. An item that increased damage done for every monster hit like charge barb.

There's so many different things and ways to go about MOTE to make it viable.

Honestly, I'd even be happy with Blizz taking the lazy way and just buffing set bonus to like 50k
Since I'm on a roll today, I figured I'd continue on and talk about another skill that's come up a bit in this thread, Avalanche, particularly as it relates to EQ when using MOTE.

As we all know, a lot of MOTE's damage comes from EQ. How much?

EQ deals 4800% weapon damage over 8 seconds, using the Molten Fury (MF) rune increases this to 6000% over 8 seconds. That's 600% / second, and 750% / second, respectively.

Blade of the Tribes triples the damage: 14,400% / 18,000 MF % total weapon damage.
Girdle of Giants more than triples it again: 50,400% / 63,000 MF % total weapon damage dealt, for each quake.

During a greater rift, which gives you 900 seconds to finish, if you have the "classic" 33.3% CDR, you can:

Leap about 900 times
Use Threatening Shout 136 times
Use War Cry 68 times
Hard-cast EQ 30 times
For a total of 1134 Earthquakes.

If they all hit, they would deal about 57 Million% / 71 Million MF % weapon damage, over the course of the rift.

Avalanche does... less damage. The Volcano rune looks like it does the most on paper, but this is largely illusory since it's not really an AOE attack and the damage is spread between multiple targets.

So, Avalanche does 2400% weapon damage, I believe in 2 ticks.

Dread Iron triples your damage: 7200% weapon damage total.

I'm a little less sure about the number of Avalanches you can trigger during a rift than I am about the number of EQs, but I believe it's along the lines of:

300 from Ground Stomp
136 from Threatening Shout
100 from hard-cast Avalanche
68 from War Cry
For a total of 604 Avalanches.

These collectively deal about 4.35 Million % weapon damage, which is about 1/16 what you do with EQ:Molten Fury, or 1/13 what you do with any other EQ rune.

Since MOTE applies a 20,000% bonus to both skills, we don't have to worry about "the LON problem". If people want a MOTE variant in which Avalanche is comparable to Earthquake, we just need to make up this 13:1 or 16:1 defecit with one or more new / modified legendaries. These could increase the damage of Avalanche, make it cast multiple times, reduce the cooldown, or some combination thereof...
05/07/2019 11:51 AMPosted by Rage
I double checked my math and I'm pretty sure I'm right about the relative damage of WW and Rend using the Wastes set. WW does 265 times as much damage.

To remedy that, you need Rend to do 265 times as much damage, i.e. a 26,400% buff.

If you create a legendary item that makes Rend do 26,400% increased damage, then yes, that will certainly fix the problem for the Wastes set.

But then people will use that item in a LON build, at which point, using the previous Rend damage figures...


That's a good point, but bear in mind that LON builds face other obstacles, including the increased Rend duration. A LON build would have to load all of its DPS into Rend, but other problems arise: Fury generation? Healing? Additional sources of mitigation? And to be blunt, I don't mind the thought of a happy accident build based around Rend for LON. It would be a welcome change of pace for Barbs, even if it's obviously not priority #1.

As an alternative, another way to address the problem of Rend is to join two ideas presented here: Get Rend amended to the Wastes 6 bonus and ask for a supporting legendary to further buff the skill's DPS potential. Such a scenario would require less damage to be loaded onto a supporting legendary (and let's be honest, we desperately need to replace Furnace in the Cube). Alternately, we could have a weapon that synergizes Whirlwind with Rend. For example, imagine if Ambo's had the following: Whirlwind deals 500% increased damage to Rended enemies.

There are a lot of potential ways to go, but the point I'm trying to make is that the optimal ways orbit the inclusion of new supporting legendaries.

05/07/2019 11:51 AMPosted by Rage
In order to be viable, ANY damage dealing Barb skill MUST receive a minimum ~10,000% bonus from SET items.

Why? Because if the set bonus to that skill is less, then the skill does little damage and nobody uses it. If all of the damage bonus comes from legendary items, then they will be incorporated into a LON build which will be extremely overpowered.


Not so fast. While I like this number as a starting point for bonus calculations, I think it's important to keep in mind how certain items compete with other items for specific slots. For example, LON builds have built-in mitigation, but a single source of DR is, as we all know, nowhere near enough to make a build viable. LON builds will never be able to take advantage of Endless Walk or Istvan's Paired Blades, so they must turn to skills and legendary gems. Ignore Pain is the obvious choice, and that will necessitate Pride of Cassius and the Zodiac ring. Right there, you've locked a ring slot and a belt slot, Cube or equipped. You've also locked a skill bar slot. What's left in terms of available mitigation?

St. Archew's gloves? Mediocre.

Mantle of Channeling? Locks a shoulder or Cube slot and requires Whirlwind.

Call of the Ancients? Eats more Zodiac procs and requires more attack speed and/or CDR.

Parthans locks a bracer slot and either a secondary roll or skill slot (Freeze or Stomp).

I think you get the idea: LON builds, even when presented with big, juicy items, won't always be able to fully capitalize.
A LON build would have to load all of its DPS into Rend, but other problems arise: Fury generation? Healing? Additional sources of mitigation?


Well, LON and Wastes provide about the same mitigation inherently, 52 vs 50. Other than that, you just take what Wastes takes: APDs, and get freeze or stun somewhere. You can also take Mantle, Aquilla, Pride of Cassius, St. Archew's, all of it. You could take both Esoteric and Mutilation Guard. You could put most of your paragons into Vit rather than STR. You could take BoM instead of CoE. You wouldn't really need to prioritize damage anywhere because you'd already do such an insane amount. As I said, literally 100 times as much damage as Wastes WW. Actually, if you took Lamentation, it would be 200 times as much. That's enough damage to go up 33 GR levels.

As an alternative, another way to address the problem of Rend is to join two ideas presented here: Get Rend amended to the Wastes 6 bonus and ask for a supporting legendary to further buff the skill's DPS potential.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

As for my 10,000% buff comment, well, can you think of an offensive Barb skill that gets less of a buff than that, that anybody uses?
05/07/2019 12:43 PMPosted by Roidraged
There's so many different things and ways to go about MOTE to make it viable.

Honestly, I'd even be happy with Blizz taking the lazy way and just buffing set bonus to like 50k


Agreed on MOTEs versatility. I play it as a Frozen Fury variant which relies on SS for the damage. CC123's Frozen Fury modded up for current items is my go to.

Fixing BoD by removing the cap (or lazy fix increase enemies to 50) is a good start and a real easy one for Blizz.

Lut Socks being absorbed by the set has always been on the cards but never implemented. This season showed it wouldn't break the game if that happened. It then allows Lut Socks to become a new assisting legendary for barbs.

GoG belt doing it's damage both ways would be nice too. Again this idea has been flogged out since it's inception with no joy from Blizz.

MOTE's bonus set buff wouldn't go astray either.
Hey everyone, been awhile :-) Good to see the creative juices still flowing unimpeded by the lack of barb, well, anything for the upcoming season.

I'll just throw this out here from the patch notes:

Chantodo’s Will
Wave of Destruction damage now scales with Attack Speed

My argument would be, if they can do this with the 2 piece Wizard weapon slot set, they can probably do it for Rend and Bul-Kathos, to juice it from piss-poor 1-handed damage, to the equivalent of equipping a two-handed weapon instead, or more. We already stack attack speed with Wastes anyway, so it's not like it's a wasted set power.

By itself, it wouldn't be enough to juice Rend up to snuff as far as inclusion in a Wastes build, but it would open the door for buffs to supporting legendaries to potentially put it over the top.

Food for all you real theorymeisters to chew on for a bit.

Keep the faith barbros.
So Rend has

1) Bloodbath 2x
2) Lamentation 2x
3) 2-piece 6x
4) 4-poece 3x

Rend is a passive damage dealer though it's important to remember. As it is with Wastes set, you only have to cast it once every 15 seconds. Unless you have more enemies to Rend as they straggle in. Either way though, what are you doing during those 15 seconds? You're presumably Whirlwinding. Whirlwind is an active engaging skill.

Rend is ultimately supposed to be a complimentary skill by this game design. It obviously needs to do more damage, but ultimately it isn't supposed to match Whirlwind's damage. That's Jade/WD gameplay, except worst.

So if you go slapping too many bonuses on Rend, it skews it's current game design and makes Barbarian something it isn't supposed to be, a passive damage dealer.

I think it was this thread I mentioned some skills need to be focused on and made into complimentary skills - ultimately Rend is supposed to be one of these as well.

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