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05/16/2019 08:02 AMPosted by Dartok
I would love for slam to be viable but at the same time I do not want it to replace Hota and those changes would basically replace hota in every way.


There are a few things to consider about Slam.

    1. The highest damage rune is Rumble, but it dumps all Fury and cannot be spammed. Even with the bracers uncapped and a larger multiplier, it won't outshine R6 HOTA because HOTA can be spammed thanks to Gavel. At best, it would make IK Slam a viable build, close to on par with HOTA, but you would still run into Fury issues. For this reason, I am strongly against increasing Slam's attack speed via supporting legendaries.

    2. Cold Slam builds deal significantly less damage per hit than Rumble but can be spammed provided you have a way to manage resources. Right now, that's IK 2, and that requires RoRG--that takes away a Cubed ring slot and that limits the build's DPS potential.


That leaves us with the following:

    1. Slam won't replace HOTA in R6 builds because it can't be spammed to utilize Raekor stacks on a CoE cycle.

    2. Slam could be made competitive with IK HOTA for IK 6, but that would require using Permafrost. Even then, a small buff to the skill's multiplier and uncapping won't necessarily push it ahead of HOTA; it won't change the skill's single target damage, nor will it make up for HOTA's superior attack speed. One build would be better at killing trash, the other would be better at killing the RG and elites.

    3. With regards to MOTE-Slam builds, Cold will still be the way to go since it doesn't dump all your Fury. You'll still need IK 2 and thus you can't take CoE, and without another way to manage Fury, you'll still be dependent on Cubing Fury of the Ancient shoulders and forgoing Lut Socks. With both buffs (uncapped bracer and larger Slam multiplier), you'll have stronger MOTE-Slam builds than our current iterations, but nothing that comes close to VC or R6 HOTA.


If there's something I've overlooked, I'm happy to discuss it further. But based on what I've outlined above, I don't think uncapping the bracers and increasing Slam's multiplier is going to in any way, shape, or form make HOTA obsolete.

05/16/2019 06:09 AMPosted by Rage
Now that S16 has ended and S17 is about to begin, does anybody want to discuss how we might eventually refine this thread into a coherent "pitch" to blizz about what changes we'd like to see, and why?


I began to do so several posts ago:

05/11/2019 11:11 AMPosted by Free
You make a good point, and I want to discuss what I feel are our most pressing issues as a class:

1. Broken or useless set skills and items
Example: Rend in Wastes, Lamentation, Boulder Toss

2. Lack of class-/build-specific supporting legendaries
Example: Over-reliance on COE, Parthans, etc.

If I addressed it from a build-centric point of view, I would argue the following:

1. Zodiac WW needs buffs. Rend is useless and the build suffers from a lack of damage at low Paragons compared to our other major builds.

2. IK HOTA needs buffs.

3. Vile Charge does not need buffs.

4. Fire/Phys EQ/Slam need buffs on both EQ and Slam.

5. R6 HOTA does not need buffs.


If I had to make a general list of priorities in order of urgency, I would write it thus:

    1. Buff WW + fix Rend

    2. Buff IK HOTA

    3. Buff EQ/Slam

    4. Buff Primary/Spender supporting legendaries


A slightly more detailed list would look like this:

1. Buff WW + fix Rend
    + Increase the Wastes 6 WW multiplier
    + Include Rend in the Wastes 6 multiplier
    + Buff Rend via new affix on supporting legendary (Lamentation not possible unless it provides the DR superior to PoC + IP)
    + Ideally, offer new supporting legendaries via ring, weapon, or bracer to replace COE, Parthans, and Furnace


2. Buff IK HOTA
    + Buff damage of Ancients
    + Buff HOTA damage via active Ancients (for example, on Fury shoulders, either buff HOTA by XX% per active Ancient or have Ancients all use HOTA and attack target that you attack)
    + Ideally, offer new supporting legendary via ring to replace COE or Endless Walk


3. Buff EQ/Slam
    + Buff EQ affix on Tribes (or make multiplicative)
    + Uncap Slam bracers + increase multiplier
    + Alternately, buff Slam via new affix on supporting legendary (Fjord)
    + Ideally, offer new supporting legendaries via ring to replace COE or Endless Walk


4. Buff Primary/Spender supporting legendaries
    + Increase all multipliers on all existing items


The above is just a draft of my thoughts, but I'm eager to hear what others have to say. Feel, err, me, to amend the above list and modify.
05/16/2019 01:07 PMPosted by Free
4. Buff Primary/Spender supporting legendaries
    + Increase all multipliers on all existing items


These should be number one priority, specifically, Primary Skill Legendaries.

All these other major builds have had there fair share of buffs. It's time to share the spot light with other skills.
Free, at one point I believe your opinion was that the relative ranking of our builds should be determined by how hard those builds are to play. Do you still feel that way? This honestly seems like a reasonable position to me. R6 HOTA should be better / clear higher than, say, Leapquake, because it's harder to play.

I know we've debated this before, but generally I'd say that WW, VC, and R6 (also Frenzy Thorns) are currently all "difficult" to play, whereas basically all current MOTE builds are "easy to moderate".

My opinion is thus that WW, VC, and R6 (and Frenzy Thorns, if it can be buffed enough) should, if possible, all be within 1 GR of each other (as they seem to be currently, if you don't count Hulda's use of "bug pack"), and that MOTE builds should be another 1-2 GRs behind these.

Thoughts?
Free, it was mentioned in the other thread by someone (Frenzy LoN IIRC?) and you agreed, that our passives need work too. Maybe consider adding that to your list in this thread.
05/16/2019 02:30 PMPosted by Rage
Free, at one point I believe your opinion was that the relative ranking of our builds should be determined by how hard those builds are to play. Do you still feel that way? This honestly seems like a reasonable position to me. R6 HOTA should be better / clear higher than, say, Leapquake, because it's harder to play.


Yes.

However, I think there are some things to consider, and one of them is low-end parity. Right now, you can slap together R6 HOTA or Fire EQ and blast though a GR 100. With Zodiac WW, you're going to experience significantly more frustration. Without the benefit of massive density and a few thousand Paragon, WW feels weak--and it is when you compare it to other builds at low Paragon.

If possible, I want better parity between our major builds at low Paragon levels. I'm not saying they have to be equal, particularly if some builds become significantly more powerful down the road, but there's no reason why WW needs to feel so weak at the bottom if it's not the top build at the other end of the spectrum.

When it comes to buffing EQ (and WW), here's a good example. Recently, I cleared 111 with my Physical EQ+Slam Barb. I'm only 2100 Paragon and I'm missing 6 Augments. Not bad for 15k main stat.

My Impale Demon Hunter, with zero Augments, has also cleared a 111 and is now fishing 112. The lowest leaderboard for NS DH is 116, and while some of those clears are around my Paragon, they all are fully Augmented.

Now, before someone says we're not competing with Demon Hunters and we shouldn't make cross-class comparisons, hear me out. The only Barb build capable of that level of low-Paragon, low-Augment power is R6 HOTA, and even then it's a very fickle build. Over on the DH side, they have Multishot, Rapid Fire, and Impale. And don't get me started if I wanted to try WW with no Augs in 110! I mean, look at my Impale DH (FreshLemon). Look at that trash gear. And yet 112 is within reach.

My point is that playing other classes exposes just how lackluster many Barb builds are in terms of feeling powerful--in terms of feeling a gradual push-back as you increase GRs as opposed to hitting a wall, suddenly and inexplicably, with your favorite build.

I hope what I'm trying to get across is clear: While it's true we don't compete with other classes, and while it's true that our relative parity between major builds is very, very good, the low-end experience, particularly for early-Season (or solo-only players) could be made less frustrating both between intra-class builds and compared to other classes. That's why I want to see buffs to our builds and items.

TLDR: Some of our builds are behind the times and need to be more powerful at all levels of play.

05/16/2019 02:30 PMPosted by Rage
My opinion is thus that WW, VC, and R6 (and Frenzy Thorns, if it can be buffed enough) should, if possible, all be within 1 GR of each other (as they seem to be currently, if you don't count Hulda's use of "bug pack"), and that MOTE builds should be another 1-2 GRs behind these.

Thoughts?


Completely agree. Frankly, I think many of the ideas presented in this thread could achieve exactly that. Math-wise, how much of a buff do you think each build needs to achieve that kind of parity? Using R6 HOTA as the baseline:

    Zodiac WW needs +3-4 GRs
    Fire EQ needs +5-6 GRs
    Physical EQ+Slam needs +7-8 GRs
    IK HOTA needs +5-6 GRs


Thoughts?

I know some folks are gunning for generator builds, and while I do want to see big ol' buffs on those items, y'all got to understand: getting those to be viable (GR 124+) is gonna take so much more work than bigger multipliers on current items. Not gonna happen. Hope for buffs on stuff like Warlord and Bastion's, but don't waste time and energy asking for competitive primary builds.

05/16/2019 03:29 PMPosted by Foamy7
Free, it was mentioned in the other thread by someone (Frenzy LoN IIRC?) and you agreed, that our passives need work too. Maybe consider adding that to your list in this thread.


Sure. I really don't think devs are willing to alter or overhaul skills at this point, but it can't hurt.

Here goes, Pitch List Draft 2

1. Buff WW + fix Rend

2. Buff IK HOTA

3. Buff EQ/Slam

4. Buff Primary/Spender supporting legendaries

5. Buff Passive Skills

A slightly more detailed list would look like this:

1. Buff WW + fix Rend
+ Increase the Wastes 6 WW multiplier
+ Include Rend in the Wastes 6 multiplier
+ Buff Rend via new affix on supporting legendary (Lamentation not possible unless it provides the DR superior to PoC + IP)
+ Ideally, offer new supporting legendaries via ring, weapon, or bracer to replace COE, Parthans, and Furnace

2. Buff IK HOTA
+ Buff damage of Ancients
+ Buff HOTA damage via active Ancients (for example, on Fury shoulders, either buff HOTA by XX% per active Ancient or have Ancients all use HOTA and attack target that you attack)
+ Ideally, offer new supporting legendary via ring to replace COE or Endless Walk

3. Buff EQ/Slam
+ Buff EQ affix on Tribes (or make multiplicative)
+ Uncap Slam bracers + increase multiplier
+ Alternately, buff Slam via new affix on supporting legendary (Fjord)
+ Ideally, offer new supporting legendaries via ring to replace COE or Endless Walk

4. Buff Primary/Spender supporting legendaries
+ Increase all multipliers on all existing items

5. Buff Passive Skills
+ Increase Armor and Thorns on Tough as Nails
+ Make additive damage bonuses multiplicative (Berserker Rage)
+ Increase healing values (Bloodthirst)
+ Increase multiplicative damage bonuses (No Escape)

Also included is this snippet I posted from page 2:

I urge developers to seek ways to dislodge Convention of Elements, Ancient Parthan Defenders, Pride of Cassius, Furnace, and Istvan's Paired Blades from their current best-in-slot positions in most of our builds. For ease of reference, here is a breakdown of our five major builds in terms of gear slots that utilize these universal best-in-slot items and their relevant bonuses.

Zodiac WW
Belt (Pride of Cassius): 50% damage reduction
Bracer (Parthans): Damage reduction per enemy in range
Ring (CoE): Conditional 3x multiplier to elemental damage
Cube (Furnace): Increased elite damage

IK HOTA
Ring (CoE): Conditional 3x multiplier to elemental damage
Weapons (Istvan's Paired Blades): 30% increased attack speed, Armor, and damage multiplier

Fire EQ
Bracer (Parthans): Damage reduction per enemy in range
Ring (CoE): Conditional 3x multiplier to elemental damage
Cube (Furnace): Increased elite damage

Vile Charge
Bracer (Parthans): Damage reduction per enemy in range
Ring (CoE): Conditional 3x multiplier to elemental damage

R6-HOTA
Belt (Pride of Cassius): 50% damage reduction
Ring (CoE): Conditional 3x multiplier to elemental damage
Weapons (Istvan's Paired Blades): 30% increased attack speed, Armor, and damage multiplier

For ease of reference, here is a complete list of class-specific legendaries that either do not possess a legendary affix or possess an affix that is effectively useless at all levels of play:

Mighty Weapons
    + Fjord Cutter

    + Ambo's Pride

    + Remorseless

    + Night's Reaping

    + Madawc's Sorrow

    + Bastion's Revered

    + War of the Dead


Swords
    + The Grandfather


Mighty Belts
    + Lamentation

    + Dread Iron

Y'all can copy/paste the above lists and add/modify if it's easier.
My post about slam was in direct relation 2 Pro's buff request. Uncapping, damage buff on par with hota as well as an attack speed buff would very much so nullify hota in every build.

I have no problems with just uncapping and maybe a minor damage buff but adding attack speed and a damage buff on par would just be too much. Hell just uncapping would make ik slam a lot closer to ik hota if not a little better.
Math-wise, how much of a buff do you think each build needs to achieve that kind of parity? Using R6 HOTA as the baseline: Zodiac WW needs +3-4 GRs Fire EQ needs +5-6 GRs Physical EQ+Slam needs +7-8 GRs IK HOTA needs +5-6 GRs

I think these numbers might be a bit high. Regarding R6 HOTA, I really think we should focus on Lucio's 130 clear at around 7K paragon, rather than Hulda's 134 clear at around 4K paragon. Bug Pack is kind of it's own thing, and it also might get patched out at some point.

So currently for top clears we have
Phys MOTE cleared 126 at around 5.5K paragon
Fire MOTE cleared 127 at close to 6K paragon
IK HOTA cleared 128 at around 8K paragon
R6 HOTA cleared 130 at around 7K paragon
WW cleared 130 at around 7K paragon
VC cleared 131 at around 9K paragon

Honestly, when I look at these numbers, I think the relative ranking of builds is about where it ought to be. I think we could expect all of these that are below 9K paragon to move up 1-3 GRs just on the basis of added paragon.

More later...
05/17/2019 01:54 PMPosted by Rage
Bug Pack is kind of it's own thing, and it also might get patched out at some point.


Agreed.

05/17/2019 01:54 PMPosted by Rage
So currently for top clears we have
Phys MOTE cleared 126 at around 5.5K paragon
Fire MOTE cleared 127 at close to 6K paragon
IK HOTA cleared 128 at around 8K paragon
R6 HOTA cleared 130 at around 7K paragon
WW cleared 130 at around 7K paragon
VC cleared 131 at around 9K paragon


My clanmate just cleared 131 with R6 HOTA. No bug pack, no Conduit, and 4 floors of caves. If Lucio fishes, he'll get 131 with or without the bug pack.

To be honest, R6 HOTA has the DPS to do 132-134 without the bug pack. With bug pack, it can go higher since it can get a 1 floor clear. And if it has bug pack + Conduit and Power? Things get ridiculous.

If we're going to evaluate based on R6 HOTA, you can't count 130 or 131 as the ceiling. So let's assume 134 is coming without the bug pack:

    WW needs +2-4 GRs (hard to gauge since no one pushes)
    Phys EQ needs +5-6 GRs
    Fire EQ needs +4-5 GRs
    IK HOTA needs +3-4 GRs


And again, don't forget the experience for low-Paragon players. I'm fine with the idea that builds requiring fussy, fine-tuned gear and skill are going to be stronger (R6 HOTA, Zodiac WW), but they shouldn't also be incredibly frustrating and weak for new, early-Season, or low-Paragon players (WW). Builds that require intense fishing should also reward players for their time and effort (WW). For these reasons, I remain committed to asking for WW buffs.

In my opinion, the only builds that don't need direct buffs are VC and R6 HOTA. If they do get buffs via supporting legendaries, I'm fine with that provided those same items are accessible by other builds as well.
05/17/2019 02:25 PMPosted by Free
My clanmate just cleared 131 with R6 HOTA. No bug pack, no Conduit, and 4 floors of caves. If Lucio fishes, he'll get 131 with or without the bug pack.To be honest, R6 HOTA has the DPS to do 132-134 without the bug pack.

I'm more or less on board with you here. Can we just say that at 9K paragon, R6 can "very probably do 133, possibly do 134"? Without bug pack, I mean. Those numbers might be off a little one way or the other but I think it's a clear enough mark for us to aim at.

I agree that we shouldn’t try to elevate other builds to the level that R6 might be able to clear with bug pack, because if all other builds get buffed to "bug pack R6 level" and bug pag gets patched out, all of a sudden R6 is in a hole, which would be a shame.

WW did 130... it could probably get one more from paragons (chinese player was around 7K) and since his time was 14:09, that's probably another GR further. So let's say WW can do 132.

I'm really not sure about VC. 131 is obviously already in the bank. And I believe that in that clear he drew a pretty bad RG. So let's say VC can also do 132.

IK HOTA did 128. That's a super-outlier, though, and I think the next highest is 123. That said, 128 is 128, and Rxt obviously found a superior method to play the set. If other players aren't emulating his method and thus aren't clearing as high as they could, that's their own damn fault. I'd guess that 129 is possible, but I really don't know. It just occurred to me that I forgot to mention IK HOTA before when I was talking about builds having potential according to their difficulty. I'd say IK HOTA should wind up in the same spot as Leapquake, a couple GRs behind the leaders. Then again, if to get a top clear you need to use spear to build density, maybe this pushes IK HOTA into "top tier difficulty", in which case perhaps it should get a larger buff.

Phys EQ did 126, less than a week into the new era. I don't think any high paragon players have been pushing it since then. Fire EQ just did 127. I'm still pretty convinced Phys is as good as Fire, and that both could certainly reach 129, and probably 130 with a really good rift.

So, if we want WW, VC, and R6 to be basically even, then WW and VC each probably need +1 GR. If we're aiming for both EQ's to basically hit 132, then EQ needs +2 GRs. IK HOTA needs either +3, to match EQ, or +4, to match WW, VC, and R6.

05/17/2019 02:25 PMPosted by Free
And again, don't forget the experience for low-Paragon players. I'm fine with the idea that builds requiring fussy, fine-tuned gear and skill are going to be stronger (R6 HOTA, Zodiac WW), but they shouldn't also be incredibly frustrating and weak for new, early-Season, or low-Paragon players (WW). Builds that require intense fishing should also reward players for their time and effort (WW). For these reasons, I remain committed to asking for WW buffs.

I agree. I think that our suggested changes to Wastes/Rend can get this done. On the offensive end, Rend just needs to add enough damage to push the build 1 or 2 GRs higher. I think it also will help the build do better in lower GRs outside of insane density. If Lamentation acquires a "+10% damage reduction per rended enemy within Y yards" affix, and this bonus is multiplicative with itself, I think we might be in a good place. 7-8 rended enemies would give you around 50% DR. 15 rended enemies would give you nearly 80%. Assuming Rend's new offensive capability is tuned correctly, you could replace Mantle with Lamentation or PoC in the cube, wear the other, and be a heck of a lot tougher at low paragon.
IMO:

For Wastes:

- 6 pc buffed to 15-20k and Rend added to it.

- new bracer for increased whirlwind damage against bleeding enemies

- new affix for a mighty weapon which buffs rend damage and increase bleeding damage by x% for every critical hit, up to x. Recasting Rend doesn't reset the increased damage buff.

These basically would make Rend a must for the set, as it should have been since day 1

For MotE:

- Lut sockets's legendary affix added to the set. Finally opening the cube slot for strongarms/parthans/crown/dread iron or magefist (for fire variant).

- Avalanche procc'd after each leap, together with earthquake.

- dread iron's avalanche damage increased.

- 6 pc damage buffed to 25-30k

- Earthquake proc rates increased (Bloodshed mode enabled)

Avalanche should be relevant for this set, and it would be specially cool in Fire variant. Lots of explosions on the screen.

For IK:

- 50% attack speed added to 6 pc. Good way to buff IK HotA without messing with Vile Charge

- 6pc damage buff to 5-7k

- Change shoulder's affix: instead giving the ancients fury rune, make it give us all runes.

- buff ancients damage

Ancients should be useful, even if it's through cold rune and some minimal damage contribution.

For Raekor:

- hitting elite enemies (including RG's) doesn't spend charges.

No more clunkyness while trying to finish off packs or fighting RG with adds.
So, if we want WW, VC, and R6 to be basically even, then WW and VC each probably need +1 GR. If we're aiming for both EQ's to basically hit 132, then EQ needs +2 GRs. IK HOTA needs either +3, to match EQ, or +4, to match WW, VC, and R6.


I'm hesitant to use outliers as the basis for buffs. To my knowledge, there have been three different R6 HOTA clears at 130 or higher, and while that by no means makes it accessible by everyone, it does indicate--as do the many, many R6 HOTA clears very close to 130--that the build offers a kind of power and potential that other builds simply don't have. I believe there's a big difference between R6 HOTA clearing 130 and Zodiac WW clearing the same tier; the former represents a solid push while the other represents a player pushing the build and fishing to its absolute limits.

I'm also hesitant to add hypothetical +1 GRs for Paragon, even though I agree with you: more Paragon will, more or less, equal higher clears. But the vast majority of players aren't in that echelon. When we talk about buffing, we have to consider both ends of the spectrum: What, for example, can a P 9000 player do with GG gear, 150 gems, and 1,000 keys, and what can a Paragon 600-800 player do with decent to poor gear, a quick perusal of a build guide, and a little moxie?

I want to be conservative in my buff estimates, but I don't want to be so conservative that new or low-Paragon players get the shaft just to keep our current rankings. If, by some fluke, Zodiac WW became the strongest build, or if it was Fire EQ, or IK HOTA? So be it provided it's not wildly out of line from other builds and still gives new players decent bang for their buck.

That said, perhaps we can meet in the middle. If we consider R6 HOTA the top build at 134, would you agree the following buffs are fair:

    WW needs +2 GRs
    Phys EQ needs +4 GRs
    Fire EQ needs +3 GRs
    IK HOTA needs +3 GRs


05/17/2019 03:26 PMPosted by Rage
I think that our suggested changes to Wastes/Rend can get this done. On the offensive end, Rend just needs to add enough damage to push the build 1 or 2 GRs higher. I think it also will help the build do better in lower GRs outside of insane density. If Lamentation acquires a "+10% damage reduction per rended enemy within Y yards" affix, and this bonus is multiplicative with itself, I think we might be in a good place. 7-8 rended enemies would give you around 50% DR. 15 rended enemies would give you nearly 80%. Assuming Rend's new offensive capability is tuned correctly, you could replace Mantle with Lamentation or PoC in the cube, wear the other, and be a heck of a lot tougher at low paragon.


Agreed. Rend's worthwhile damage need only propel the build 1-2 more GRs. We might also take a different route: boost Rend's damage to give +1 GRs, then boost WW's damage vs Rended enemies for another +1 GR. Throw in some added DR on Lamentation or a bracer slot and you've got a very beginner-friendly set. Either way, I like where this is going.

The only problem with Rend-dependent DR is that it will totally fizzle out against the RG. Then again, so does Parthans, so whatever.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
For Wastes:

- 6 pc buffed to 15-20k and Rend added to it.

- new bracer for increased whirlwind damage against bleeding enemies

- new affix for a mighty weapon which buffs rend damage and increase bleeding damage by x% for every critical hit, up to x. Recasting Rend doesn't reset the increased damage buff.


I love the bracer idea, but the increase to the 6-pc bonus is far too big. The affix you've proposed isn't bad at all, though I would argue that refreshing Rend should reset the bonus. It does create a nice synergy between Whirlwind's crits and Rends DOT. Very nice work!

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
- Lut sockets's legendary affix added to the set. Finally opening the cube slot for strongarms/parthans/crown/dread iron or magefist (for fire variant)


I'm meh on this. Lut Socks provide genuine utility. Besides, there are better places to address the build's weak spots: ring slots, weapons, and bracers.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
- Avalanche procc'd after each leap, together with earthquake.

- dread iron's avalanche damage increased.


Sure, but won't that just mean we swap Girdle for Dread? What's the point? We'll still need to use Rumble to dump Fury. I guess I could see this if Lut Socks were folded into the MOTE set and we could Cube Dread, but otherwise I'm not sold on this.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
- 6 pc damage buffed to 25-30k

- Earthquake proc rates increased (Bloodshed mode enabled)


Again, I think the buff might be too large there, but I could definitely see something along the lines of 22-24k damage on the set bonus. Negative on the the buff to proc rates, though. We already use Bloodshed in every other build. It's kind of nice that EQ builds can do away with it and still be powerful.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
Avalanche should be relevant for this set, and it would be specially cool in Fire variant. Lots of explosions on the screen.


That's never going to happen unless the fire rune on Avalanche is altered. Right now, it randomly disperses it's damage; the blobs of lava aren't really AOE--they're single-target hits under the sway of RNG. This is the real reason we don't use the skill in the build: in its current form, it contributes far less than using a shout for another EQ.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
For IK:

- 50% attack speed added to 6 pc. Good way to buff IK HotA without messing with Vile Charge


Not terrible, but not really necessary. Would, of course, make IK Slam builds more of a thing.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
- 6pc damage buff to 5-7k


5k would be plenty. Really, we need to focus on supporting legendaries.

05/17/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Hadd
- Change shoulder's affix: instead giving the ancients fury rune, make it give us all runes.

- buff ancients damage

Ancients should be useful, even if it's through cold rune and some minimal damage contribution.


I agree, but their runes are by and large useless outside TaO. I would much prefer to address it via a combination of weapons and the shoulder. For example, if we imagine the IK set buffed to 5000% damage in the 6-set bonus, we could envision the following:

Fury of the Ancients: Keep Fury generation, add, "Gain 10% Armor and attack speed for every active Ancient"

Remorseless: Keep fourth Ancient spawn, add, "Hammer of the Ancients deals XX% increased damage per active Ancient.

No more Istvan's as best in slot weapons. The Remorseless multiplier alone might be enough to push IK HOTA up by 2-3 tiers.
Everytime I read you "this might be too big" or "this would be too powerfull" I remember Dark's Wizard clearing 134 doing quatrillions damage. Literally quatrillions.

Dude, 30k for EQ is no less than fair.
05/17/2019 06:03 PMPosted by Hadd
Everytime I read you "this might be too big" or "this would be too powerfull" I remember Dark's Wizard clearing 134 doing quatrillions damage. Literally quatrillions.

Dude, 30k for EQ is no less than fair.


Different builds and skills work in different ways. Wizards can do that because of their supporting legendaries, hint, hint.

And if you're referring to Star Pact, you have to understand that's one of the hardest--maybe the hardest--build to play.
05/17/2019 05:54 PMPosted by Free
I'm hesitant to use outliers as the basis for buffs. To my knowledge, there have been three different R6 HOTA clears at 130 or higher, and while that by no means makes it accessible by everyone, it does indicate--as do the many, many R6 HOTA clears very close to 130--that the build offers a kind of power and potential that other builds simply don't have. I believe there's a big difference between R6 HOTA clearing 130 and Zodiac WW clearing the same tier; the former represents a solid push while the other represents a player pushing the build and fishing to its absolute limits.

I'm not sure... it does seem like some builds are just more consistent than others, i.e. their "average" clear is much closer to their "top" clear, often for fishing/structural reasons.

05/17/2019 05:54 PMPosted by Free
I'm also hesitant to add hypothetical +1 GRs for Paragon, even though I agree with you: more Paragon will, more or less, equal higher clears. But the vast majority of players aren't in that echelon. When we talk about buffing, we have to consider both ends of the spectrum: What, for example, can a P 9000 player do with GG gear, 150 gems, and 1,000 keys, and what can a Paragon 600-800 player do with decent to poor gear, a quick perusal of a build guide, and a little moxie?

Sure, but trying to look at builds in a "paragon-equalized" way helps to put some differences in perspective. It might seem like one build is 6 GR's ahead of another, but when you realize that the higher ranking player has 5000 more paragon and thus does more than twice as much damage, you may need to reassess. But, I take your point about showing consideration to both high and low paragon players.

05/17/2019 05:54 PMPosted by Free
That said, perhaps we can meet in the middle. If we consider R6 HOTA the top build at 134, would you agree the following buffs are fair:WW needs +2 GRsPhys EQ needs +4 GRsFire EQ needs +3 GRsIK HOTA needs +3 GRs

Yes on +2 WW. Yes on +3 IK HOTA. It's funny that I have to keep arguing with you for lower MOTE buffs, considering I probably play more MOTE than just about anybody else! I still think +2 GRs will put both Phys and Fire in a comfortable spot a little behind WW, R6, and VC. Speaking of VC, I know you don't like the build, but I really do think it's very challenging to play, and should be up there with R6 and WW. So I still think it should get a little love, whether it's +1 or +2.

We might also take a different route: boost Rend's damage to give +1 GRs, then boost WW's damage vs Rended enemies for another +1 GR.

I'd be all for this, though that would require another legendary item. It would be simpler to just stick to direct Rend buffs, and we might be more likely to actually see such a change from Blizz.

Ok, here's my crazy plan for changes to MOTE (thanks, Hadd). Lut socks bonus goes to MOTE (2). MOTE (4) now causes an Avalanche on launch and an EQ on landing. Blade of the Tribes bonus becomes a multiplicative legendary affix and now also applies to Avalanche. Dread Iron bonus changed to to 150-200% increased Avalanche damage, increased by a further 100% after casting Ground Stomp (i.e. 300 - 400% total increase after stomping). BoD uncapped. GoG bonus now activates when you cast SS or Ancient Spear. Skular's Salvation bonus increased to 400% / 600% more to first 5 targets (numbers adjustable, these are just off the top of my head).

This would result in the build dealing more damage from lots of Avalanches that would be getting a bonus from Tribes, and also possibly from Dread Iron (worn, or in the cube, with GoG in the other spot). With these buffs, the Volcano rune would actually help Fire leap deal single target damage, which has always been a problem. Avalanche would actually have a purpose. SS would be a true aoe, while boulder toss would be a "nuke" for fighting small numbers of targets (this would help fire as well). You'd have a reason to use Ground Stomp, particularly with Fire. Phys would reap the benefit of uncapped BoD, as well as extra aoe damage from the basic phys avalanche. Not to mention, all those extra avalanches would generate fury via earthen might, which would enable you to slam more often.

A Phys skill bar might be Leap, EQ, SS, BR, TS, WOTB.
A Fire skill bar might be Leap, EQ, BT, AVA, GS, WOTB.
05/17/2019 06:04 PMPosted by Free
05/17/2019 06:03 PMPosted by Hadd
Everytime I read you "this might be too big" or "this would be too powerfull" I remember Dark's Wizard clearing 134 doing quatrillions damage. Literally quatrillions.

Dude, 30k for EQ is no less than fair.


Different builds and skills work in different ways. Wizards can do that because of their supporting legendaries, hint, hint.

And if you're referring to Star Pact, you have to understand that's one of the hardest--maybe the hardest--build to play.


I do not think builds power should be ranked by difficulty/clunkyness/broken mechanics at all. Devs themselves said they want all sets to be close in power. Right now our fastest horse is R6 which would be crippled if stupid wall charging + Endless Walk got patched. This is not cool or fun. This set, aswell the others, deserve proper treatment, in order they do not rely in glitches and poor designs in order to work as intended.
Sure, but trying to look at builds in a "paragon-equalized" way helps to put some differences in perspective. It might seem like one build is 6 GR's ahead of another, but when you realize that the higher ranking player has 5000 more paragon and thus does more than twice as much damage, you may need to reassess.


I see what you're saying, but I don't think that paints an accurate picture. It's true that R6 HOTA is not 6 GRs ahead of Zodiac WW--not yet, anyway--but you have to consider the power potential of the build at different points in player progression. R6 HOTA has cleared 120 under 2k Paragon; it is, to my knowledge, the only Barb build capable of doing so. On the other hand, your Fire EQ clear is very impressive at your Paragon, but certainly not indicative of the build's performance vs R6 HOTA at that tier range. My point is that when discussing buffs, we need to consider more than just the top-tier experience. I think we're in agreement there.

05/17/2019 07:26 PMPosted by Rage
Yes on +2 WW. Yes on +3 IK HOTA. It's funny that I have to keep arguing with you for lower MOTE buffs, considering I probably play more MOTE than just about anybody else! I still think +2 GRs will put both Phys and Fire in a comfortable spot a little behind WW, R6, and VC. Speaking of VC, I know you don't like the build, but I really do think it's very challenging to play, and should be up there with R6 and WW. So I still think it should get a little love, whether it's +1 or +2.


Well, you've certainly put more time and thought into MOTE than I, so I'll defer to you on this. As for Vile Charge, I don't think 131 is the cap, so I'm fine not buffing it. Of course, if the IK set got buffed, that would domino into Vile Charge. But as it stands, I think it's the one set with very good supporting legendaries (Vile Wards and Standoff). And if Boulder Toss gets a significant buff, that could go a long way to buffing it's single-target DPS.

My feeling on Vile Charge is that it's better left alone because incidental buffs may come from other avenues.

05/17/2019 07:26 PMPosted by Rage
Ok, here's my crazy plan for changes to MOTE (thanks, Hadd). Lut socks bonus goes to MOTE (2). MOTE (4) now causes an Avalanche on launch and an EQ on landing. Blade of the Tribes bonus becomes a multiplicative legendary affix and now also applies to Avalanche. Dread Iron bonus changed to to 150-200% increased Avalanche damage, increased by a further 100% after casting Ground Stomp (i.e. 300 - 400% total increase after stomping). BoD uncapped. GoG bonus now activates when you cast SS or Ancient Spear. Skular's Salvation bonus increased to 400% / 600% more to first 5 targets (numbers adjustable, these are just off the top of my head).


I think "crazy" is the optimal word here, because I don't think these changes are remotely possible to achieve. It's not that they're bad--they're not, though I still disagree with folding Lut into the MOTE set. I just don't think the Classic Games team is ever going to overhaul sets like this, period. Maybe, maybe, they'll slap Rend onto the Wastes 6 bonus, but that kind of tinkering seems far less intrusive and demanding than a complete re-work of MOTE. Then again, are they really gonna introduce new legendary items? We're probably all six short of a twelve pack. But dreamers gotta dream.

05/18/2019 06:31 AMPosted by Hadd
I do not think builds power should be ranked by difficulty/clunkyness/broken mechanics at all.


I can't disagree more about difficult builds. If the build is difficult to play--builds like Star Pact and R6 HOTA--it should offer more power to those who take the time to master it. Skill and expertise should be rewarded. What you're asking for is the equivalent of auto-aim in an FPS so you can compete with folks who have honed their aim through time, practice, and skill. No dice, amigo.

Wall-charging isn't going anywhere, and neither is PE snapshotting for other builds, or potion shenanigans, etc. Not unless the CG team really want to dig deep into the game's code.

05/18/2019 06:31 AMPosted by Hadd
Right now our fastest horse is R6 which would be crippled if stupid wall charging + Endless Walk got patched. This is not cool or fun. This set, aswell the others, deserve proper treatment, in order they do not rely in glitches and poor designs in order to work as intended.


You don't really think the CG team is going to overhaul sets, do you?

Is anyone under the impression that come next patch Barbs are going to have viable generator builds or some really, really strong LON builds? Because if you are, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

If we're lucky, we might get buffed numbers on existing affixes and items.

If we're very lucky we might get one or two completely broken mechanics fixed (Rend in Wastes).

And if we're very, very lucky, we might get both of those things.

On the flip side of the coin, you can opt to look at things like wall-charging and Endless Walk as creative ways to exploit game mechanics. It doesn't technically break any rules, nor is it useless (like Rend in the Wastes set). It may not be to your liking, which is totally valid, but it's hardly a glitch in the strictest sense.



05/18/2019 06:31 AMPosted by Hadd
Devs themselves said they want all sets to be close in power.


At the moment, we're very close to that. That's precisely what we're all discussing.
By the way, Hadd, Rage, and others participating: Add me on Bnet if you haven't already. Might be worth collaborating in-game as well as discussing this stuff over vc.
05/18/2019 11:32 AMPosted by Free
By the way, Hadd, Rage, and others participating: Add me on Bnet if you haven't already. Might be worth collaborating in-game as well as discussing this stuff over vc.


IIRC I've already added you. We farmed a couple of grift keys if memory doesn't fails me.
05/18/2019 11:06 AMPosted by Free
My point is that when discussing buffs, we need to consider more than just the top-tier experience. I think we're in agreement there.

Yes, I agree. One thing I think we should keep in mind is that each build has a sort of "spread" between highest clear, average clear, and what you might call "highest consistent clear".

For instance, with MOTE my highest clear is 122, an "average clear", i.e. the GR level at which I can clear maybe 50% of the time is possibly 116 or 117, and the GR level at which I can clear 100% of the time is probably 112. So that's a spread of 10 GRs between "best" and "highest consistent clears", with "average clear" roughly in the middle. I would suspect WW's spread is as great, or even greater. I'd also suspect that R6 has a significantly narrower spread.

So if we're trying to balance sets by "average clear" rather than by "highest clear", the sets with higher spread are going to end up having a higher "highest clear". For instance, let's say that R6's spread is only 6 GRs, and that its "average clear" for me at 2400 paragon would be something like 121, while its "highest clear" might be 124 or so. If we buff MOTE to match this 121 "average clear", then it's "highest clear" will be 126, higher than R6's 124.

I am perhaps not explaining myself as well as I could be, but hopefully my overall point is coming across.

I think the only set that has a real "low paragon" problem is WW, and that this is caused by a pretty harsh "toughness check". So I think some remedy that increases WW's toughness (like DR on Lamentation) will narrow its spread and make lower paragon pushes more doable while not pushing its higher paragon clears too far ahead.

I think "crazy" is the optimal word here, because I don't think these changes are remotely possible to achieve. It's not that they're bad--they're not, though I still disagree with folding Lut into the MOTE set. I just don't think the Classic Games team is ever going to overhaul sets like this, period. Maybe, maybe, they'll slap Rend onto the Wastes 6 bonus, but that kind of tinkering seems far less intrusive and demanding than a complete re-work of MOTE. Then again, are they really gonna introduce new legendary items? We're probably all six short of a twelve pack. But dreamers gotta dream.

Yeah, I'm definitely not expecting any of those changes I proposed to happen, though I do think they would function fairly well within the framework of the set without requiring any huge changes in the overall mechanics of how the build is played.

In terms of "expectations" and "dreams", I really think we should end up with two or three lists at the end of this discussion. Based on the changes they made for this most recent season, I think the most realistic thing to expect is that we will see only numerical increases to already existing affixes. I certainly hope for more, but I definitely don't expect more.

So, "list#1" should just include buffs of this sort. For instance, with just % increases to Oathkeeper and the Tough as Nails skill, Frenzy Thorns could be brought back to viability. Throwing some massive % increases at Dishonored Legacy and Blade of the Warlord would push a non-thorns generator build into viability as well. See my May 11 post on this thread for the size of buffs that would probably be needed.

"List#2" should include changes like our proposed inclusion of Rend in Wastes (6), which should be fairly easy to do, but still more complicated than just changing a smaller number to a larger one. I think MOTE (4) causing avalanches and GoG triggering from both SS and BT could possibly go in here as well.

"List#3" should have our ideas for new legendary affixes for specific legendary items, and any further changes we'd like to see to set items.

I could also see lists 2 + 3 being combined. Bottom line, we'd obviously like to see all of these changes happen, but each of these lists has a lower chance of being implemented than the one before it.

What do you guys think? Good idea? Bad idea?
05/19/2019 11:41 AMPosted by Rage
One thing I think we should keep in mind is that each build has a sort of "spread" between highest clear, average clear, and what you might call "highest consistent clear".


That's something I think about often, and I agree with your assessments of various build spreads.

Fun Fact: I'm absolutely terrible at R6 HOTA. Part of that is being so out of practice, but I'm more likely to close a GR with EQ or WW than R6 HOTA, and that has nothing to do with the build. I can make pin-point pulls with Rage Flip, but I constantly screw up charges and COE syncs. I just find R6 HOTA so hard to play in part because it's much, much squishier than our other major builds. It can't tank the damage that, say, WW or EQ can tank.

05/19/2019 11:41 AMPosted by Rage
I think the only set that has a real "low paragon" problem is WW, and that this is caused by a pretty harsh "toughness check".


Half correct. The toughness issue boils down to the fact that new or less experienced players don't understand the very narrow parameters in which the build works--for example, Parthans + Freeze + density. And while a buff to the Wastes set's DR would be welcome, I argue that damage is the bigger problem for low-Paragon players. I think addressing Rend would solve this; personally, I would love to gather density with Rage Flip, Rend them, and Whirlwind them to ribbons. I think that would feel satisfying.

05/19/2019 11:41 AMPosted by Rage
I could also see lists 2 + 3 being combined.


I would prefer a simpler approach, so I suggest we limit it to two lists, something along the lines of a "simple" list of fixes, and a second list that details more complicated (but no less necessary) fixes. Here's a rough draft--modify at will:

List 1: Simple Fixes
    1. Buff existing legendary items (Skulars, Warlord, Bastion's, Oathkeeper, 300th, Areat's, Dread, Girdle).
    2. Buff passives (Tough as Nails, Berserker Rage, Brawler, No Escape)


List 2: What We Actually Need
    1. Fix Rend in Wastes
    2. Uncap Slam Bracers (?)
    2. Additional supporting legendaries


Thoughts?

One easy way to buff WW for the Zodiac and LON builds is to buff Skull Grasp another 100%. Unless anyone has objections, I'd like add that to list 1.

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