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I just find R6 HOTA so hard to play in part because it's much, much squishier than our other major builds. It can't tank the damage that, say, WW or EQ can tank.

Hmm, I've always thought of R6 as being pretty tough, though it never uses APDs unlike WW or Fire EQ. BoM + Aquilla + Esoteric (or Gogok) + IB armor + EW bonus while moving + near 100% uptime on IP = a lot of defense. I know when I've played the build I've always had more toughness than with Leapquake.

05/19/2019 12:11 PMPosted by Free
List 1: Simple Fixes
1. Buff existing legendary items (Skulars, Warlord, Bastion's, Oathkeeper, 300th, Areat's, Dread, Girdle).
2. Buff passives (Tough as Nails, Berserker Rage, Brawler, No Escape)

A few questions about this list:

Is the Bastion's bonus just more Frenzy stacks, or an actual damage bonus to Frenzy? If the latter, then I think this would require enough extra coding that this change would have to move to List#2. Same goes for Arreat's Law, which currently doesn't actually buff Weapon Throw damage. For girdle, what change are we talking about? Just increasing the damage?

05/19/2019 12:11 PMPosted by Free
One easy way to buff WW for the Zodiac and LON builds is to buff Skull Grasp another 100%. Unless anyone has objections, I'd like add that to list 1.

So, this would increase WW's damage by 20% (600/500 =1.2) And this would probably move WWs max clear up by 1 GR. If we were going entirely with list 1, I think this would be an appropriate change. We've got to be a little careful, though, about how many things we stack up. If we were to end up getting a "list 2" item that increased WW's damage to rended enemies, and also a buff to skull grasp, and also buffs to rend, we could push the build further forward than we're meaning to.

Just something to think about. Like I said, within the context of "list 1", I think your proposed change is just fine.
05/19/2019 01:15 PMPosted by Rage
Hmm, I've always thought of R6 as being pretty tough, though it never uses APDs unlike WW or Fire EQ. BoM + Aquilla + Esoteric (or Gogok) + IB armor + EW bonus while moving + near 100% uptime on IP = a lot of defense. I know when I've played the build I've always had more toughness than with Leapquake.


I have the total opposite experience. With R6 HOTA, you don't have near perma-IP without Gogok, and if you take Gogok, you don't get Esoteric. The build is fine when you're moving, but as soon as you start wall-charging, you lose the EW's DR, and that's when the hurt starts to add up. Can't tell you the number of times I've died with 50 stacks because someone kills me just before Cold turns to Fire.

I might test the build with Parthans in the Cube over Aquilas, but I think it has more to do with A) I'm rusty as FFFFF, and B) I'm not very good at the build. I also have a few slots of questionable gear and very few Augments, so that adds to the difficulty.

A few questions about this list:

Is the Bastion's bonus just more Frenzy stacks, or an actual damage bonus to Frenzy? If the latter, then I think this would require enough extra coding that this change would have to move to List#2. Same goes for Arreat's Law, which currently doesn't actually buff Weapon Throw damage. For girdle, what change are we talking about? Just increasing the damage?


I didn't intend anything specific aside from larger multipliers or larger stack counts. Really, the list is just examples of existing items that have insufficient/outdated affixes; nothing on my example list is necessarily intended to be final. If the first list is all about simple fixes, it should contain items that could benefit from larger numbers.

05/19/2019 01:15 PMPosted by Rage
So, this would increase WW's damage by 20% (600/500 =1.2) And this would probably move WWs max clear up by 1 GR. If we were going entirely with list 1, I think this would be an appropriate change. We've got to be a little careful, though, about how many things we stack up. If we were to end up getting a "list 2" item that increased WW's damage to rended enemies, and also a buff to skull grasp, and also buffs to rend, we could push the build further forward than we're meaning to.


My thinking was that the easiest, most realistic (as in likely to be implemented by CG team) way to buff WW +2 GRs was to get another 100% on Skull Grasp (+1) and a buff to Rend, perhaps by adding Rend to the Wastes-6 bonus. Though far from innovative, it would solve our problems, and I don't think it would make Rend too powerful or provide much more than a +2-3 GR buff to the build.

Does anyone take issues with the current list draft? If not, I'd like to begin calculating number ranges for proposed buffs. Ideally, I'd like to generate a specific buff # for each item. I'd also like to look at it from a build perspective, e.g. MOTE builds need +3 GRs so we need XXX% across X items.

I also want to be clear on goals. My goals--and, I hope, our goals--are as follows:

    1. Buffs to existing builds
    2. Buffs to supporting legendaries
    3. Better viability for LON builds

While that does include fixing broken sets, something I don't think will happen, it does not include trying to make generator builds competitive with our major builds. That's a pipe dream that would require more work than is remotely feasible.

In other words, I believe we should be focused on goals that are easily achievable given the current inclination of game design.
If the first list is all about simple fixes, it should contain items that could benefit from larger numbers.

Fine with me. I think that means list 1 has to be "no added code", i.e. blizz just deletes one number and replaces it with another (i.e. Bastion's Revered goes from 10 to 20 stacks, Oathkeeper goes from 50% AS and 200% DMG to 100% AS and 400% DMG, etc)

05/20/2019 09:45 AMPosted by Free
My thinking was that the easiest, most realistic (as in likely to be implemented by CG team) way to buff WW +2 GRs was to get another 100% on Skull Grasp (+1) and a buff to Rend, perhaps by adding Rend to the Wastes-6 bonus.

Part of what I was trying to suggest about this issue was that list 1 and list 2 are somewhat contradictory. For instance, you put adding Rend to Wastes (6) in list 2, because that would involve adding new code rather than just changing one number to another. I agree.

So, if we cannot get any list 2 changes, that means that if we want to push WW up a couple GRs, we have to do it entirely via buffs to WW. If we wanted +2 GRs entirely via list 1 means, then Skull Grasp should actually go up from +400% to +600%. This would be a 40% increase in damage, which is just slightly more than the +37% you'd need to go up 2 GRs.

But, if we CAN get list 2 changes, then we wouldn't want a buff to Skull Grasp that large, instead we'd want Rend buffed via inclusion in Wastes (6), plus (if we can get it) some other Rend-buffing Legendaries, and perhaps a small buff to Skull Grasp as well.

My point is that our list 1 changes should essentially be separate from our list 2 changes. The first buffs our builds only by increasing numbers, the second by actual mechanical changes to the game, such as by Wastes (6) effecting Rend, or by uncapping BoD, etc.

05/20/2019 09:45 AMPosted by Free
Does anyone take issues with the current list draft? If not, I'd like to begin calculating number ranges for proposed buffs. Ideally, I'd like to generate a specific buff # for each item. I'd also like to look at it from a build perspective, e.g. MOTE builds need +3 GRs so we need XXX% across X items.

I think we should go ahead and prepare list 1 changes while we think a little further about list 2 changes. I posted about how large a buff various builds might need a few days ago. I'll take another look at those numbers and refine them.

I do think that LON Thorns can be pretty easily fixed. All it really needs is increases to Tough as Nails, Oathkeeper, and Bastion's Revered. No mechanical changes required. A generator build using Cleave, Bash, Oathkeeper, Blade of the Warlord, and Dishonored Legacy, is in the same boat: all it really needs is bigger numbers (a lot bigger), though honestly I don't think it would be all that fun to play. I'm not talking about pushing a generator build to R6 level, just making it less horrendously bad.
Ok, here's my first breakdown on buffs needed for a specific build.

LON Frenzy Thorns: After looking at the numbers again, I believe this build needs to go up about 21-22 GRs to be able to clear GR 130 at high paragon, which I think would be fair. This means the build needs to do about 30X as much damage.

Doubling the stacks of Bastion's Revered from 10 to 20 will, I think, increase your damage by 60%. (You start off by attacking at 100% of normal speed with frenzy, at stack 10 you are attacking at 250% of normal, at stack 20 you are attacking at 400% of normal. 450/250 = 1.6). If anybody has thoughts on whether this level of attack speed increase will go beyond what the game is capable of rendering/calculating, I'd like to hear them.

Increasing Tough as Nails from +100% Thorns to +1000% thorns will increase your damage by 5.5X (You used to do 100 "base" thorns damage, and Tough as Nails increased this to 200. With this buff it would increase to 1100. 1100/200 = 5.5). So at this point, 5.5 * 1.6 = 8.8X as much damage, but we need to get to 30X. (30 / 8.8 = 3.41)

So we want Oathkeeper to have a much larger buff than it does now. Currently, Oathkeeper can increase your damage by 200%, meaning that if you were doing 100 damage without Oathkeeper, with it you're doing 300. (300 * 3.41 = 1023). So we want about a 1000% bonus on Oathkeeper, which would give us 1100 damage now vs 300 before. 1100 / 300 = 3.67

100 damage, before any of these buffs.
100 * 1.6 (Bastion's Revered stack buff) = 160
160 * 5.5 (Tough as Nails buff) = 880
880 * 3.67 (Oathkeeper buff) = 3230, or a 32.3X buff over our initial 100 damage.

To review:

Bastion's Revered bonus increased from 10 stacks to 20
Tough as Nails thorns bonus increased from 100% to 1000%
Oathkeeper damage buff increased from 200% to 1000%

Build should be able to clear GR 130 at high paragon.


Edit: This analysis is incorrect. Increasing the damage bonus on Oathkeeper does not increase thorns damage, although it will help Primary skill builds. With just the Bastion's Revered and Tough as Nails buffs, the build should be able to clear in the 120's, at high paragon.
Next:

Wastes WW: This build has cleared GR 130 at around 7K paragon. We'd like to move it a little further ahead. If we can't tinker with any mechanics, the best way to do this is by a simple buff to Skull Grasp. Increasing Skull Grasp's bonus from +400% to +600% will increase damage by 40% (700/500 = 1.4), enough to go up 2 GRs. WW also has a significant toughness problem at low paragon. Increasing the WW (4) DR from 50% to 60% would help a little with this (note that this is a 20% reduction in damage taken).

To review:

Skull Grasp bonus increased from +400% to +600%
WW (4) DR increased from 50% to 60%

Build should be able to clear GR 132 - 134 at high paragon.
IK HOTA: This build has cleared 128 at around 8K paragon. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to push this build forward that doesn't a) involve mechanical changes to the set or b) also augment R6 HOTA and/or Vile Charge.

If somebody else has ideas, let's hear 'em.
Fire Leapquake: This build has cleared 127 at around 6K paragon. It could do 129 or 130 at very high paragon. If we want to move this build +2 GRs, we need more damage to EQ. The main options would be buffing Blade of the Tribes, or buffing Girdle of Giants. The latter of these two options would be easier, since Tribes damage bonus goes into the DIBS pool.

If you were doing 100 damage before activating GoG, you would be doing 350 damage afterwards, using its current buff (+250%). To go forward 2 GRs we need 37% more damage. (350 * 1.37 = 479.5). So, we want to go from +250% to +400% (for 500% damage total).

To review:

Girdle of Giants bonus increased from +250% to +400%

Build should be able to clear GR 132 at high paragon.
Phys Leapquake: This build has cleared GR 126 at 5.5K paragon. It can probably do GR 129 or 130 at high paragon. If we want to move this build forward 2-3 GRs, that can be done via buffs to Girdle of Giants (as in the post above), Fury of the Vanished Peak, or Bracers of Destruction.

Assuming the buff to Girdle, above, Phys Leap should get a corresponding increase to a SS buffing item, since Phys does less damage via EQs than does Fire. The total increase should be about +37%, which can be split between FotVP and BoD, or attached to only one item.

FotVP and BoD each currently give +500% damage, so if you were doing 100 without the item, you'd be doing 600 with it. 600 * 1.37 = 822. So if you wanted to just do the increase on one item, you'd probably increase FotVP's damage bonus from +500% to +700%.

If you wanted to split the increase up between the two items, then each should get a 17% bonus. 600 * 1.17 = 702. So, in this case, you'd increase both FotVP and BoD to a +600% bonus. This is probably the best option.

To review:

Girdle of Giants bonus increased from +250% to +400%
Fury of the Vanished Peak bonus increased from +500% to +600%
Bracers of Destruction bonus increased from +500% to +600%
(these changes would also benefit Pro-Slam and R6 Slam)

Build should be able to clear GR 132 at high paragon.


Edit: on further thought, Phys Leapquake only needs the SS damage bonus on FotVP. Having it on both, as well as the GoG bonus, would give +4 GRs, not +3.
Part of what I was trying to suggest about this issue was that list 1 and list 2 are somewhat contradictory. For instance, you put adding Rend to Wastes (6) in list 2, because that would involve adding new code rather than just changing one number to another. I agree.


Not at all. I propose that we request both lists be addressed. List 1 will be simple fixes and list 2 will contain issues with broken and/or useless items. In other words, we write list 1 with direct references to list 2, but we acknowledge that if we can't have our cake and eat it too, there are alternatives.

For example, based on the information you provided about Skull Grasp, we would have something like this in list 1:

WW needs +2 GRs
    + Fix 1: Please increase Skull Grasp from 400% to 500% and include Rend in the Wastes 6 set bonus.

    + Fix 2: If Rend cannot be added to the Wastes 6 bonus, please increase Skull Grasp from 400% to 600%.


In this way, we might be able to slowly but surely condense it all down to 1 list. Even if we don't, we can still do everything in our power to insure a half-assed buff doesn't drop in our lap.

When it comes to WW--and specifically WW--we can always overshoot the mark a little. If, say, we asked for +3 GRs, the vast majority of players will still only tap into +1 or +2 worth of potential due to the extreme fishing required; that is, unless Rend gets buffed. Because if Rend gets buffed, the baseline will most certainly feel the +2 and so will the top end.

Looking through your other posts, I like where the numbers are headed.

IK HOTA: This build has cleared 128 at around 8K paragon. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to push this build forward that doesn't a) involve mechanical changes to the set or b) also augment R6 HOTA and Vile Charge.


It will require a supporting legendary. If you buff Gavel or First Men, you buff R6 HOTA. I'm not against that per se, but I would much prefer to see a supporting legendary do the leg work.

In fact, one thing I want to stress: Even with realistic goals in mind, I want the message that our supporting legendaries need some TLC loud and clear to the developers. Even if our current items get bigger numbers, we're still lacking useful supporting legendaries--just look at the breakdown per build I did last page.

Anyway, as for IK HOTA, the easiest thing to do is buff the Fury shoulders to increase either Ancients damage or HOTA damage while Ancients are active. Or, ideally, both; letting Remorseless buff HOTA per active Ancient would be fine if you make the bonus large enough to offset losing the IB set. Something like: Gain 20% attack speed, damage reduction, and increased damage for every active Ancient. Bye bye Istvan's.
05/20/2019 01:19 PMPosted by Free
I propose that we request both lists be addressed.

Well, yes, of course! It would be pretty silly to make a list of changes we'd like to see, hand it to them, and say "please don't make these changes!"

I'm not sure if we're having a little bit of a difference of opinion here, or just a miscommunication. What I'm saying is that, if you look at the changes implemented in the most recent patch, all you see is numbers that already existed being increased. And if that's all we've got to work with, we should make a list ("list 1") that operates using only changes like that. Which means no Rend in Wastes (6), no BoD uncapped, etc.

Now, I definitely don't think that we should give them this list on its own. We should get "list 2" ready, which is our actual, complete wish list. And then we should give them both lists, and say, please give us the changes listed in list 2. If you can't do that, then do list 1. I think this is what you were getting at in your "WW needs +2 GRs" section, yes?

But: they should not add the changes in list 1 on top of list 2. That's what I meant by "contradictory".

05/20/2019 01:19 PMPosted by Free
It will require a supporting legendary. If you buff Gavel or First Men, you buff R6 HOTA. I'm not against that per se, but I would much prefer to see a supporting legendary do the leg work.

Yeah, that's what I mean by "mechanical changes": they'll actually have to write new code for new legendary items, and I'm not sure we can expect that to happen. Hence, it's a "list 2" item.

Let me reiterate: I am all for list 2! But I think we should have a solid list 1 in case list 2 isn't in the cards.
If you can't do that, then do list 1. I think this is what you were getting at in your "WW needs +2 GRs" section, yes?


That's precisely what I'm saying. We're in complete agreement.

I was only adding, perhaps unnecessarily, that our lists need to be clear in that regard: We want both lists, but if that's not gonna happen, we need the first.

05/20/2019 01:34 PMPosted by Rage
Yeah, that's what I mean by "mechanical changes": they'll actually have to write new code for new legendary items, and I'm not sure we can expect that to happen. Hence, it's a "list 2" item.


Yeah.

Personally, I'm okay with Gavel getting a buff, and I'm also okay with both HOTA builds getting buffs. I still argue that R6 HOTA is our hardest build to play, not to mention that it's pretty tough to gear, and if it goes to 136 or 138 for high-Paragon players, so be it. Of course, I'm not directly asking for things that will buff R6 HOTA as I think--and I'm fairly certain we can all agree on this--that buffing other builds to get closer to R6 HOTA in terms of potential is more important. But if it happens, it happens.
05/20/2019 01:43 PMPosted by Free
Of course, I'm not directly asking for things that will buff R6 HOTA as I think--and I'm fairly certain we can all agree on this--that buffing other builds to get closer to R6 HOTA in terms of potential is more important.

Yeah. If R6 HOTA gets buffed, I feel like we'll just be going through this whole process all over again, as players of other builds (especially WW and VC) say "WTF? Buffs for R6?"
I feel like 6pc buffs is all we can expect right now. I do not have faith they will touch supporting legendaries so late now. If they buff all our sets, keeping the numbers tweaking tied to currently GR pushing potential, it wouldn't be so bad.
05/20/2019 04:01 PMPosted by Hadd
I do not have faith they will touch supporting legendaries so late now.

Hadd, what do you mean by "so late"? I'm pretty sure Free and I are talking about these theoretical buffs being ready for the next season, #18, not the current one, #17. I'm pretty sure there's no chance at all that we'll get these buffs, or any others, during the current season.
Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean, Hadd. I don't think it's unrealistic to believe they will buff existing supporting legendaries next patch (or possibly the patch after that). In fact, aside from adding Rend to Wastes 6, I would prefer they leave sets alone if they're not willing to do overhauls. Our supporting legendaries need updates and at the very least I expect to see numbers increase.
05/20/2019 12:13 PMPosted by Rage
To review:Bastion's Revered bonus increased from 10 stacks to 20
Tough as Nails thorns bonus increased from 100% to 1000%
Oathkeeper damage buff increased from 200% to 1000%

Build should be able to clear GR 130 at high paragon.


Totally need this. Primaries are over due.

Might I add:

300th 500% increase.

Skular's 800% increase.
And since we're on the topic, I think Spears for Barb's need to transitioned over Mighty Weapons.
You can't buff Tough as Nails 1000% without buffing new chars through the roof. Just get some secondary thorns on your gear, topaz in your weapon and watch as your leveling to 70 and your fresh 70 are the most OP of any class............
Rage and Free,

I meant "this late" not about this season, but 2019 lol. I've been addressing this Rend situation for years now -and I was never alone- and they've always ignored the fact that nobody in the top GR spots using Wastes actually used Rend in the skill bar.

I'm not keeping my hopes up for a balanced and well thought implementation of legendary powers to enable some cool builds at this point. That's what I meant. If they add Rend to 6pc, and buff it, it will still be meh compared to the meta and I don't think we will get much further than that.
Hadd,

Yep, I’m certainly not expecting much, if anything. There’s no harm in trying, though!

Damo,

Does it really take anybody more than 2 or 3 hours to level to 70, anyway?

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