LoN and SoN Design Change (minor)

General Discussion
Re-implement LoN into a single ring like RoRG instead of a set. Make LoN and SoN (Season of Nightmares) work at 1/2 the damage and defense for non-ancient items so that a player can at least get the desired build started and functional before a full suite of ancients/primals. Calculating the eventual bonuses with a mix of ancient and non-ancient gear should not be a difficult task. Having LoN as a single ring means being able to equip or use it from the cube and wear other non-set ring(s) on the player character. RoRG remains a drop from Act-1 bounty caches but the re-implemented LoN ring is just another ring drop with the exact same drop rate for each class, which should use the current drop rate for the ring set items.

One might ask why re-implement as a single ring?
You have to understand that when players were asking to have non-set items elevated they weren't asking for a "no-set" set. The ring set is basically an agnostic damage buff/damage reduction aura limited to the player character. I'm not the first to ask for LoN to work with non-ancient items, but to a lesser degree.
It has also really bugged me that the "don't use sets" mechanic was implemented as a ... a ... a ... set of rings.?!

D'oh!

And if the irony of a set to prohibit sets isn't enough, it leads to the silly complication of having to make the behavior of the power read "if no other set bonuses are active..." rather than "this thingy disables all set bonuses, and ..."

Alternatives include:
  • regular legendary
  • legendary gem (for weapon? helm? off-hand? (not every class has off-hands, though))
  • passive skill
  • built-in mechanic (I don't like this because it should be an explicit choice to avoid confusion)
  • craftable something
attack
normal 500%
ancient 750%
primal 1000%

def
normal 3%
ancient 4%
primal 5%
I'm pretty sure the irony isn't lost on many of us.
@DarkSauron:
I see what you did there. :)

While I could get on board with the values you propose I would still be fine with a 1/2 effect at non-ancient and ancient/primal getting the current max effect. This is to not add more power right now to the max effect since we effectively get 2 ring slots freed up if we run the 1-ring implementation from the cube (LoN). SoN frees up the 2 ring slots with the next season's buff but is limited to Season 17. Non-season folks get no benefit and when S-17 ends the special buff is gone.
u can do too

250/500/750 but the current lon lost power because not all have full primals but i like the idea behind "the primal" give a plus over the ancient.
05/03/2019 02:29 PMPosted by DarkSauron
i like the idea behind "the primal" give a plus over the ancient.


That's unnecessary power creep. Even without extra boost per primal the LoN builds are dominating 4 player LBs. Because of LoN the 4 player groups are already smashing GR150s in less than 8 min.

When will you numb nuts learn that the buffs must remain equal for ancients and primals?
lol not do buff but give a primal a plus

do primal 750% like now and ancient 500 and normal 250% if u dont want more power creep.

is more important give a primal priority over ancient, on lon is perfect because u can put on different primals to gain bonus.

then 150 in 8min isnt a lon problem but a allowed bug, because the status "archon" dont stop the status "channelling" and do insane stack dmg.

the right way is... stop channelling status when u do the transformation.
05/03/2019 03:49 PMPosted by DarkSauron
is more important give a primal priority over ancient


No, it really, really, REALLY is not.
so buff 1000% = power creep

"debuff" (not all have full primal lon) 750% only primal = not really

understood
05/03/2019 09:41 AMPosted by BossDogg
Make LoN and SoN (Season of Nightmares) work at 1/2 the damage and defense for non-ancient items so that a player can at least get the desired build started and functional before a full suite of ancients/primals.


This is what was suggested quite a lot of times and would really be nice if we wouldn't need to wait for a buff until ancients.

While I think that 1/2 of the value might be too much, if they would at least make it give 50% per legendary item I'd be happy...

Currently there is a hole in a seasonal buff as it was with previous season. I think I'm gonna be skipping SoN since as Nevalistis stated in some skill balancing post, there won't be many changes coming now, if any at all.

So f*ck this, I already played this route many times and even in the season of no sets you gonna have to make this road again acquiring set items to farm ancients properly. Been there, done that and it's nothing new for quite a chunk of the game, nice seasonal buff :D

There went my hype for this season :(
Instead of making RORG a permanent buff why not just make it to where you have to hit certain Grift levels solo or with a group, or after running certain things like bounties so many times you unlock it, and not just that buff but maybe other buffs or choices of buffs so that it keeps you wanting to grind to those higher grifts..

This was in reply to another post but I decided to post it here also, I'm hoping that maybe blizzard will see this and possibly think about it, although I'm not sure that its something that would work but it would be something to keep players wanting to grind through higher grifts and possibly keep their attention longer...
A lot of down vote bots are out and roaming tonight. ...and you know they are bots because they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Nothing in support of the proposal or against it.

10k down votes gets you a free bag of french cut, mild dew undergarments in pastel colors. Don't forget to click... err I mean cluck.
Keep the buff the same, but give Primal items an additional 1% Damage Reduction.

Ancient 4%
Primal 5%.
05/05/2019 08:03 AMPosted by Rogue77777
Keep the buff the same, but give Primal items an additional 1% Damage Reduction.

Ancient 4%
Primal 5%.


yep something, not important what but make a difference beetwen ancient and primal
Why do some people want to create unnecessary buffs to primals? They are not and should not be anything special. They are just ancients with maxed affixes.

Even that extra mitigation is unnecessary. If primals get anything extra, they will essentially become mandatory to any build, normal ancients being always suboptimal.

The LoN buffs, both damage and mitigation, must now and always remain equal for both ancients and primals.
The idea for partial bonus with wearing non-ancient items I can get behind. This would give some level of toughness and damage from the set even without acquiring ancient.

However, I'd amend it to a value that's lower, perhaps 10%-25% of the total bonus per non-ancient rather than 50%, since we'd be guaranteed to have at least that much when starting out.

This also makes seeking ancients still very rewarding when acquiring, as compared to: 'oh, I completed the other half of the bonus for that slot, goody for me'.

The idea for condensing the LoN set to one ring I don't quite agree with as much. There are many builds that simply would benefit from this too much (Necro builds, Star pact Wizard, Certain Crusader builds, etc.) over other builds. As I'm sure we'll see in season 17 this will create large imbalance between the classes that can benefit from LoN more vs. those that can't.

I think the issues with those classes that benefit from the jewelry slots more would have to be balanced more before such an action could be considered.

EDIT: Agreed on the point that primals should be treated the same as ancients here. That's basically all they are, possibly perfect ancients.
05/05/2019 11:19 AMPosted by Cratic
This also makes seeking ancients still very rewarding when acquiring, as compared to: 'oh, I completed the other half of the bonus for that slot, goody for me'.

It's even more pronounced than "the other half of the bonus" would imply. The first ancient now is huge. Even the second one just about doubles your damage. The boost from 0->1, then 1->2, and 2->3 are huge. It isn't until you get to your last ancient where you bump from 12x bonus to 13x bonus that things get less "whelming" - about an 8% bump.

Judging from seasonal progress, I usually can outfit my character with full legendaries about as fast as I get my first ancient. I rarely have more than 2 ancients when I can find enough legendaries to completly outfit my character.

So, basically, you'd have nearly 6.5 "ancient's worth" of bonus when you get your first real anceint and you'd jump from 6.5 times the bonus to 7 times. That's only an 8% boost for your first real ancient. About the same thrill as getting the last ancient and getting that last 8% boost, except that you don't even get the sense of completion with it. For the last ancient, the usually underwhelming 8% boost becomes a boost from 12.5x to 13x the bonus which would be a 4% bump.

The accumulation of ancients becomes a ramp from 8% down to 4% improvement.

Originally it's a very logarithmic ramp that goes from 7x to 2x to ... ending at 8%.

Having the non-ancient bonus be so high would kill the thrill of getting an ancient nearly completely.

So, yeah, 10-20% of the ancient boost, at most.
Another thing to consider here, the scale is logarithmic since it is additive. The last ancient you get doesn't increase your damage by 7.5X, it bumps it by a mere 8%.

The first 2-3 ancients are the biggest relative boost and after that it slows to mostly a grind to get to the max bonus.

In season, you can get pretty much leg's in all slots very soon after you hit L70, but it doesn't take all that long to get 3 or 4 ancients which boosts you considerably making the path to 5-6 ancients come not too long after that. It builds pretty well. The main thing you worry about is getting ancient versions of the required items and then switching from "just any ancient" in the other slots to "an ancient version of the best item", which takes a while, but don't underestimate the power of having the required weapon/off-hand/bracers (only 3-4 of the 13 slots) as non-ancients when the rest of your slots are filled with random ancient items. That's a pretty powerful build for most classes that will get you to T6-10 easily where you can start farming the right ancients to become GR push-worthy. I've pushed with random unoptimized LoN builds just to see what it was like and I was able to do GR70 (to simulate unlocking primals) while still wearing a random ancient blackthorne's piece or an ancient Vigilante belt because I hadn't yet found an ancient Witching Hour or ancient APD.

(Remember that you can wear a random odd ancient set piece as long as you stick with 1 piece per set. You may not trigger the "GR45 with no set items" achievement, but the LoN bonus will still work.)

A partial boost for non-ancients isn't likely to accelerate that as much as it sounds in theory. Ancients are uncommon, but the boost from LoN is so large as it is that you can progress pretty far by just grabbing any old ancients and mixing with a couple of key items to start your journey.
@Cratic:
I can definitely get on-board with a 10-25% bonus for non-ancient items. Currently if we equip the rings with a full set of non-ancient items you only get:
- raw stats
- the benefits, multipliers, and defense the items provide (including raw armor)
- raw offense from the weapon damage and satisfying the requirement of some skill runes

If equipping the rings with all non-ancients now gives a modest buff to offense/defense that is a net buff, without having to trade off some other benefit, and without necessarily being massively over powered or be in the insane power creep category, then I would gladly accept.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum