D2's runes (and gems) in Diablo 3

General Discussion
06/01/2019 07:16 AMPosted by naksiloth
Ethereal items

No thanks. Hated these, and bluntly, feel item durability is an antiquated statistic that needs to be shown the door. What you'd wind up seeing is the shoulder item that blocks durability loss becoming mandatory or people just idling in town with durability repairs.

More generally, I'm not a fan of the idea that a pro has to have a con. I know it's a mentality that tries to justify questionably OP things, but most often they tend to fall into the category of leading to the eventual destruction of things you have or reducing overall survivability. And what the latter tends to push the glass cannon style, which further forces the need for unavoidable damage mechanics so people just don't completely forsake defensive stats.
06/01/2019 10:42 PMPosted by Saidosha
What you'd wind up seeing is the shoulder item that blocks durability loss becoming mandatory or people just idling in town with durability repairs.


I'm totally talking out of my imagination (*ss) and theorycrafting here but in the model I thought that would only apply to endgame gear players with 4-6k plvl or so.
Finding an ethereal primal wouldn't be an easy task as it will be another rarity layer on top of finding primal quality. So having such items wouldn't disrupt the general flow of the average but only bother high level play.

Shoulder piece that makes everything indestructible would be mandatory and that's the thing I aim for, yet there can be alternatives for rerolling item secondary to be indestructible or having repair durability over x seconds items/traits.
If you find a really perfect primal item or a near perfect ancient with ethereal quality, all you ever need to do is rerolling its secondary to be indestructible. That will simply make it Primalv1 model you liked so much but you will waste away an opportunity of customization.

Waiting on town only would apply if you die over and over again after entering a high GR with a group and you didn't reroll secondary properly. You may not like it but that's one of the features that may push the loothunt further, allow power growth and give it a risk element for forcing top builds to adapt.
About item durability and ethereal items. On one hand I like the concepts and on the other I do not. When I am going through a dungeon and my sword breaks, I teleport back to town to repair it. I do not like that break in the action/adventure. If the game was built around the idea that you have to transverse these dungeons and are unable to teleport out, then you are basically forced to go to the nearest weapon rack and pick up a white sword or axe or whatever is there and use that. I would be interested in that sort of "make use of what is available" type of gameplay. But at that point I think you have a game that is much less of a loot hunter. It becomes more Deus Ex or some kind of survival horror game where you ammo is very limited and when you run out you are forced to bash folks with a stick. I honestly don't know if that is what I want from a Diablo game. You break an item, you find a new one or pull one from your bags, and either discard the old one (to have more bag room for collecting) or stow it to repair when you reach the next town. I think that might be interesting as a prologue or epilogue or parallel storyline in the form of a "mini-game"...

Ethereal items would fit into a game like that where you are much less attached to an item, where the idea of using an item forever doesn't really exist. An ethereal item would be like a one time buff.
Again, all Ethereal would do is punish players for playing the game. Dying (repeatedly) not required. Finding a primal, v2 or otherwise, with the right primaries can be difficult enough. Adding the requirement of a very specific secondary to the mix does the community no favors.

I understand the intent of trying to prolong play, but I'd look to alternatives for further powering up players first. Or as I stressed before, "sure things" that can be achieved through specific actions/content. Something like augmenting qualifies here, while simultaneously giving a use for gem upgrades not on your primaries. I could easily look to bounties and point out that a lot of people hate them. The whys may vary, but I imagine the most common complaint would be they're not rewarding enough. I've vocalized changes I want to make that system/multiplayer before, but I'd instead pose the question of what you think should be done to increase their appeal.
05/29/2019 04:43 AMPosted by Praetorian
1. You lost me at +2 to all skills on perfect skull
2. Beating a dead horse won't make it live or more dead

Diablo 4 is in the works, theory crafting may be fun but I am sure you can find something more useful to do with your life. Seeing that D3 is pretty much out of the new content developmental state and is kept on "life support"


Its not in the works.They are working on that garbage mobile game,they are letting us real diablo fan down since d3 has been out.
06/02/2019 08:48 AMPosted by Saidosha
Finding a primal, v2 or otherwise, with the right primaries can be difficult enough. Adding the requirement of a very specific secondary to the mix does the community no favors.


I get it, another layer of rarity that changes nothing and punishes player for not getting lucky and it's senseless power creep without impact on mindset. Like an on/off button, difference between having an ethereal and not, will be different as day and night.

Its backdraws can be cushioned by other means. Such as allowing Primals to reroll for another second affix, rewarding finding a Primal at that rarity but not breaking the game. Still if it didn't sound good so far guess I can't convince you.

06/02/2019 08:48 AMPosted by Saidosha
but I'd instead pose the question of what you think should be done to increase their appeal.


Game needs an overhaul to change the endgame's focus then; more likely allow it to branch away instead of changing rails.
If scrapped content like Talisman (charms activator) and Devil's Hand (monster hunt for a card challenge? I have no idea. Didn't read wiki throughly) were to be added back with skill system tweaks accordingly, then loothunt at Neph Rifts may have a meaning as much as GRs. Additionally if crafting system is fixed and includes useful bits and items, it can save Brawl scene and make Bounties worthy of running.

Skill system have to synergize with secondary stats more for a feedback loop, so it would give player a ground for growth even so little and thrive for different sub-specs. Crafted items should support this motion by offering over the edge secondary affixes. Campaign mode may ensure that by rewarding player with random affix charms or jewels as well, so that would push the reward gap inbetween two modes. That's all I can think of.
I would see it like this:
trade and currency - we could buy only for self found currency which would be account bound? You may ask why trade is it need for if legendaries drop every 10s? That's right but Ancient items and Primals are desired ones and harder to find with good stats so these 2 kinds of items would find a place on 'market'
- currency - it could be runes or pieces of talisman - same idea like runewords; we would be collecting pieces of talismans on GR, pieces like runes would be better and harder to find (higher GR) and ofc more valuable on trade; there would be few types of talismans, harder and easier to create and they could give us some powers, buffs anything worth to play for and push high GR (i mean most valuable pieces should be hard to find and higher GR levels would give us higher chance to find it but still not to high to drop it every game).
06/01/2019 07:16 AMPosted by naksiloth
Ethereal items

I think ethereal items are cool as a concept in regards to them being ethereal, but not that they can not be repaired.

Maybe they can do something else than having increased damage/armor at the cost of not being able to be repaired.

Maybe an ethereal weapon can increase your damage against elites, but reduce your damage against non-elites (or vice versa) as some sort of innate affix. Maybe an ethereal armor can cause you to take less damage from elites white causing you to take more damage from non-elites or vice versa as some sort of innate affix.

It also could be some completely different bonus/drawback...
I am just throwing ideas around that does not include them being un-repairable.
It could be anything.
07/06/2019 04:38 PMPosted by clueso
as some sort of innate affix.


I think that doesn't justify ethereal items' another layer of rarity. Even if Ethereal items appear with 20% rarity, that means only 2% of legendaries you find will be Ethereal Ancient, for Primal that number goes down to 0.045%; that means it's almost non-existent in the loot pool.
Highly rare items being irrepairable supposed to dent and slowdown the progress of high tier players for longevated loot hunt while changing nothing for average players.

I don't think Ethereal items supposed to have better alternatives without drawbacks but that's me.
In case you don't want to be restrained and face obstacles in a video game by any means, that's your choice because no other thing but irrepairable affix would come close as a real penalty.
07/06/2019 05:39 PMPosted by naksiloth
In case you don't want to be restrained and face obstacles in a video game by any means, that's your choice because no other thing but irrepairable affix would come close as a real penalty.

tbh, I always thought that ethereal items in D2 were kind of annoying the way they were designed.

It happened from time to time that you found a good, (relatively) rare unique item and then when it turned out to be ethereal for me it felt like, "ah, !@#$, it is not going to be permanent." The only uses it had were for mercs or some some exceptions like Titan's Revenge that had self-repair on it or RW bases for mercs or for Exile or BotD, but in general I thought they were kinda frustrating.

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Now, if the Indestructibly affix would be more common, it would make that whole ethereal stuff more interesting.

For example, what if items, regardless of them being white, blue, yellow, orange or green could actually roll with 0-2 random bonus affixes that are separated for the normal affix pool and one of these bonus affixes could be `'Indestructible' (other bonus affixes could be Magic Find, XP bonus, gold drop bonus, pick-up radius, etc, basically anything that is not or little combat related).

If ethereal then would be a separated thing on its own on top of all of this and you had a chance to get an item that is both ethereal and indestructible at the same time, or that you could reforge a bonus affix into 'Indestructible', I would be okay with it.

For example you could find something like this as an RW base (just imagine it also has the ethereal affix somewhere):

https://imgur.com/wHLyHb0

... or an ethereal legendary that also rolls with Indestructible.

That would be by far not as annoying (for me personally) as finding unique/legendary items that become useless after a while.
The funny thing is how horrible runes and gems were in d2. You could literally grind years and never get the enough of the ultra-rare runes to make the best items in the game. The only way you "won" was to pay or cheat. Do I want that in d3? No way.

I realize this forum in particular it is taboo to insult D2 in any way shape or form, but there is extremely valid criticism to make of the rarity of high-end runes.
07/06/2019 08:29 PMPosted by Venaliter
The funny thing is how horrible runes and gems were in d2. You could literally grind years and never get the enough of the ultra-rare runes to make the best items in the game. The only way you "won" was to pay or cheat. Do I want that in d3? No way.

I realize this forum in particular it is taboo to insult D2 in any way shape or form, but there is extremely valid criticism to make of the rarity of high-end runes.

Right, but that does not mean that runes have to be as rare in D3 or D4 as they have been in D2.
07/06/2019 08:29 PMPosted by Venaliter
The funny thing is how horrible runes and gems were in d2. You could literally grind years and never get the enough of the ultra-rare runes to make the best items in the game. The only way you "won" was to pay or cheat. Do I want that in d3? No way.


It was hard to find high rune you are right but since patch 1.13 it became much easier. The problem of D3 is that you are getting everything on the plate without any effort. I am not saying it should be hard to find gear for months but it would be nice to have a goal to reach.
07/07/2019 09:54 AMPosted by FunK
07/06/2019 08:29 PMPosted by Venaliter
The funny thing is how horrible runes and gems were in d2. You could literally grind years and never get the enough of the ultra-rare runes to make the best items in the game. The only way you "won" was to pay or cheat. Do I want that in d3? No way.


It was hard to find high rune you are right but since patch 1.13 it became much easier. The problem of D3 is that you are getting everything on the plate without any effort. I am not saying it should be hard to find gear for months but it would be nice to have a goal to reach.

I think it would be a good design if you could find items that have a powerlevel of 50/100 or 60/100 with relative ease and items with a powerlevel of ~65-75/100 with some effort, but items that are 80-90/100 should take very long to find and then the best-in-slot 100/100 items should take even longer, so that they are like an ultimate goes to reach.

The point is that even if you don't get the 100/100 powerlevel items, your char still should be viable.

The problem with D3 is also that legendaries do not just rain from the sky, but that there are a lot of items, even legendaries that just have a powerlevel of 10/100 and then there are others that immediately bump you up to almost full power. It is like these stepping stones are missing.
07/08/2019 07:12 AMPosted by clueso
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It was hard to find high rune you are right but since patch 1.13 it became much easier. The problem of D3 is that you are getting everything on the plate without any effort. I am not saying it should be hard to find gear for months but it would be nice to have a goal to reach.

I think it would be a good design if you could find items that have a powerlevel of 50/100 or 60/100 with relative ease and items with a powerlevel of ~65-75/100 with some effort, but items that are 80-90/100 should take very long to find and then the best-in-slot 100/100 items should take even longer, so that they are like an ultimate goes to reach.

The point is that even if you don't get the 100/100 powerlevel items, your char still should be viable.

The problem with D3 is also that legendaries do not just rain from the sky, but that there are a lot of items, even legendaries that just have a powerlevel of 10/100 and then there are others that immediately bump you up to almost full power. It is like these stepping stones are missing.


The problem with D3 is that the entire procedural itemization failed because the original design goal was to not have gear min/maxing for skills. Hence the "Play your way." moto and the use of homogenized WoW-esque main stat design that scales every skill. The fundamental flaw was that WoW uses main stat style for static budgeted items and that this design was never intended for procedural randomization as it just results in overwhelmingly dead outcomes.

So all the overhauls, reworks, rebalancing, and addition of smart loot systems has basically been the devs trying to bake back into the game the very thing they designed it not to do and all on top of what was an overabundance of global scaling multipliers leg/set affixes have to compete with. Now the game has a double dose of expontential scaling that cripples any chance of meaningful diversity that isn't separated by several orders of magnitude in power.

The game really needed to have a core affix rework first so that the leg/set overhaul could be focused more in interesting effects/mechanics to create diversity and not just supercharging certain skills.
The best thing would be to do itemization once again from 0 but it is too late for that so imo best and easiest would be give some goal for high gr - runes or something worth to push. Ofc it shouldn't drop like all legendaries every 10 sec, higher gr -> higher chance to drop better "rune". It would open door for trade as well - ancient and primal items have value; and i am not afraid of black market, look on consoles trade, items are on ebay/amazon but it works fine.
Would be cool but diablo 3 is way better than diablo 2.
Diablo 3 is simply the greatest thing ever created by one of the most genius person on earth named Jay Wilson.
07/08/2019 09:07 AMPosted by Animule
Now the game has a double dose of expontential scaling that cripples any chance of meaningful diversity that isn't separated by several orders of magnitude in power.

I think what you are describing is what I know as "multiplicative multipliers".
"Additive multipliers" are not too exponential, since they are additive with other multipliers and not multiplicative with them. I think a good mix of multiplicative multipliers and additive multipliers is desirable.

It would be nice if D3 had a lot more additive multipliers and that the multipliers that are already there would be lower, but they will not do that in D3 anymore, but hopefully they keep that in mind for D4.

07/08/2019 09:07 AMPosted by Animule
The game really needed to have a core affix rework first so that the leg/set overhaul could be focused more in interesting effects/mechanics to create diversity and not just supercharging certain skills.

Yeah, definitely.
Maybe in D4.

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