Questions about Vyr Chantodo play

Wizard
I know this build is super easy and obvious to leet players, but I ain't one.

I am currently struggling with mid GR 80s but I know I should be able to do way higher with my gear. So I have a couple questions:

1. Should black hole be cast right before popping archon? Does it matter?
2. When coming out of archon, should wizards be STANDING STILL and spamming arcane torrent to build chantodos as quickly as possible? I'm seeing and reading conflicting information on this. I do not have the toughness to tank a full chantodo stack.
3. While in archon, is "archon punch" supposed to be the main attack used? I cannot really tell if it's superior to archon blast, which I've been using.
4. When not pushing GR, what's the best gem to use other than Stricken? Is it pain enhancer? Bane of the Powerful?
5. While in archon, does it matter what attack is used while gathering groups? Is it optimum to tag everything with the beam?
6. When GR pushing, is the first archon expected to basically not kill enemies, just build momentum with archon stacks?

I may have more questions later. Thanks guys.
05/23/2019 06:41 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
1. Should black hole be cast right before popping archon? Does it matter?


Yes. If you pop it too soon, it will take some Zodiac procs away from your Archon cooldown. Also, you want it to extend as far into your Archon as possible. For both these reasons, popping it right before you enter is ideal.

05/23/2019 06:41 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
2. When coming out of archon, should wizards be STANDING STILL and spamming arcane torrent to build chantodos as quickly as possible? I'm seeing and reading conflicting information on this. I do not have the toughness to tank a full chantodo stack.


Good positioning is critical out of Archon. You don't want to be standing in a bunch of elite affixes. Get somewhere safe, and channel as consistently as possible. Teleport to safety if you need to. You can also do kind of a moving stutter channel to keep some distance between yourself and enemies while still maintaining your channel. Your goal is to get Chantodo's stacked and back into Archon as soon as possible, any delay in getting into Archon both reduces your eDPS over the course of a rift (you want to maximize your Archon uptime to maximize your eDPS) and results in some lost stack potential, due to a reduced time with overlapping stacks and max APS for more stack gain.

05/23/2019 06:41 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
3. While in archon, is "archon punch" supposed to be the main attack used? I cannot really tell if it's superior to archon blast, which I've been using.


If you want to min-max to the extreme it can be a bit more complicated, but a good rule of thumb is Archon punch the majority of the time, and Archon beam if you need to be at range to stand in an Oculus. Or to be safe. Using the Archon punch the majority of the time also encourages you to be close enough for the Archon blast (on 1, which you should be spamming constantly or have macro'd or something) to always hit stuff, granting you extra stacks. If you are at range using the beam, you're probably losing out on a few potential stacks from the Archon blast.

So yeah, a safe bet is Archon punch, unless you need to be at range for Oculus/safety.

05/23/2019 06:41 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
4. When not pushing GR, what's the best gem to use other than Stricken? Is it pain enhancer? Bane of the Powerful?


Powerful for speed GRs, Hoarder for torments.

Pain Enhancer + Frozen Storm can be an interesting combo for lower level content. The idea is that Frozen Storm applies the PE DoT to everything around you and will kill low HP trash for stacks without you having to wait the full second for a Chantodo's wave to go out. It lets you basically ignore low HP trash because it will die from PE, and focus only on killing high HP high progression trash and elites. Only works in lower content where the 3 sec DoT from PE is sufficient to kill trash though.

05/23/2019 06:41 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
5. While in archon, does it matter what attack is used while gathering groups? Is it optimum to tag everything with the beam?


Yeah, the beam can be beneficial for aggroing stuff in. You should be switching between the two as the situation requires.

05/23/2019 06:41 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
6. When GR pushing, is the first archon expected to basically not kill enemies, just build momentum with archon stacks?


Yep. There's a few stages of GRs for first-round Archon.
Stage 1: low tier GRs where you can kill elites right away in your first Archon. Just fight whatever is around in your first Archon.
Stage 2: mid tier GRs where you can't kill elites right away, but can kill trash, gain stacks, and then kill elites at the end of your first Archon. Focus on lower progression trash in your first Archon until you have a few stacks built, then engage the elite near the end of your first Archon.
Stage 3: higher tier farming GRs (but not push tier) where you can only really kill trash in your first Archon. Ignore elites and build stacks by hitting stuff and killing low progression trash.
Stage 4: push tier GRs where you can't really kill anything in your first Archon. Just focus on staying alive and hitting stuff to build stacks.
I teleport out of the group of mobs to a safe spot right as Archon is ending and basically stay still to build stacks asap. I will teleport of mobs get too close to me. If you are dying, use Halo of Karini instead of COE. You can wear the Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac and cube the Karini to get max damage reduction.

I cast black hole right as i leave Archon to crowd control a bit. It doesn't seem to bother me, as far eating up zodiac procs. there is enough to go around! I also cast black hole again right as I'm entering Archon again. So the cold damage buff lasts as long as possible.

Also change out your Unwavering Will for Galvanizing Ward or Blur
You need Halo of Karini to replace COE and use Storm armor instead of energy armor for survivability. You also should have MAX CDR on your weapon as well as rings shoulders and gloves.
05/23/2019 09:19 PMPosted by NightRaven
You need Halo of Karini to replace COE and use Storm armor instead of energy armor for survivability. You also should have MAX CDR on your weapon as well as rings shoulders and gloves.


I've been wondering about CDR. It's actually rare that I have the full chantodo stack before archon is available, so I'm unclear on why people need so much CDR?
05/23/2019 09:19 PMPosted by NightRaven
You need Halo of Karini to replace COE and use Storm armor instead of energy armor for survivability.


Not necessarily. The Karini variant is arguably easier to play, especially earlier season when your toughness is lower. But all the top clears will be with CoE, because it has higher DPS and clear potential.

05/23/2019 09:19 PMPosted by NightRaven
You also should have MAX CDR on your weapon as well as rings shoulders and gloves.


No you don't. It's playable with 4 of 6 rolls on shoulders/gloves/ring/ring/weapon/source, although I wouldn't recommend that. 5 of 6 rolls is probably ideal, the 6th is overkill in my opinion. With the 6th roll you'll be getting Archon off cooldown long before you hit 20 Chantodo's stacks. The 6th roll might be handy if you are really trigger happy on Teleport and it's eating a bunch of your Zodiac procs.

With the 6th roll, you are either entering Archon too soon before you have 20 stacks, or you are waiting for Chantodo's stacks once Archon is off cooldown. Both of those situations are less than ideal. You are better served using that 6th roll for something like ancient damage range on a ring, or maybe just to be forgiving with a less than ideal roll on a Compass Rose, e.g. an ancient int/vit/crit/crit/socket Compass Rose. Another option is life on hit on weapon. You could even take 1000 vit on weapon or source or gloves instead.

I would argue all of those options have more value than that sixth CDR roll, which is unnecessary in most circumstances.

05/24/2019 05:34 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
so I'm unclear on why people need so much CDR?


You don't really. See above. 5 of 6 rolls on shoulders/gloves/ring/ring/weapon/source is sufficient for most purposes. 4 of 6 is passable, but won't play as smoothly in certain situations.
05/23/2019 09:19 PMPosted by NightRaven
You need Halo of Karini to replace COE and use Storm armor instead of energy armor for survivability.


Not necessarily. The Karini variant is arguably easier to play, especially earlier season when your toughness is lower. But all the top clears will be with CoE, because it has higher DPS and clear potential.


Thanks for the help. I will try with the Karini + Storm armor combo, because yes, I do die easier than I'd like. These days people probably don't consider toughness to be "reasonable" until like paragon 1,500 with full augments or something.
05/24/2019 06:28 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
Thanks for the help. I will try with the Karini + Storm armor combo, because yes, I do die easier than I'd like. These days people probably don't consider toughness to be "reasonable" until like paragon 1,500 with full augments or something.


If you're playing seasons, you almost certainly want to be using Karini at this point, unless you are REALLY good at avoiding damage. And yeah, 1500 paragon with full augments is probably a reasonable time to make the switch.

The logic is this: both your toughness and damage scale up similarly with paragon/augments/better gear, but in GRs, enemy HP vastly outscales incoming damage per GR level. So early season, you have lower relative toughness to your damage and GR level. Late season, you have lower relative damage to your toughness and GR level. You benefit more from the extra toughness from Karini early season, and you benefit more from the extra damage from CoE late season.

So say early season you are clearing 115 at 800 paragon with a few ancients and maybe a single augment.

Later in the season season you are clearing 125 at 1600 paragon fully decked out in ancients with augments.

Enemies in GR125 have 4.8x more HP but deal only 1.26x more damage compared to enemies in GR115.

And in this example D3 planner, you have about 2x more toughness and 2x more damage at 1600 paragon with full ancients and augments compared to at 800 paragon with a few ancients: https://www.d3planner.com/782689508

You can see that, at lower paragon and lower GR levels, you have lower relative toughness relative to enemy incoming damage. And at higher paragon and higher GR levels, you have higher toughness relative to incoming damage, but lower relative dps to enemy HP.

It's much easier to make the switch to CoE at higher paragon/gear/augment levels, as you have higher relative toughness then, so you don't need the toughness from Karini as much, but you need the extra DPS from CoE more.
05/24/2019 07:19 AMPosted by TinneOnnMuin

The logic is this: both your toughness and damage scale up similarly with paragon/augments/better gear, but in GRs, enemy HP vastly outscales incoming damage per GR level. So early season, you have lower relative toughness to your damage and GR level. Late season, you have lower relative damage to your toughness and GR level. You benefit more from the extra toughness from Karini early season, and you benefit more from the extra damage from CoE late season.


There is a lot of helpful information like this unstated in build information provided by sites like Icyveins. If more people were in touch with the depth of the mechanics then we'd see fewer people complaining about the shallowness of D3 and also fewer people corpse crawling T16 right now. It's funny to do T16 rifts right now and see elites and rift guardians basically 1-shot, but the chat is spammed by notifications of players dying.
...

Not necessarily. The Karini variant is arguably easier to play, especially earlier season when your toughness is lower. But all the top clears will be with CoE, because it has higher DPS and clear potential.


Thanks for the help. I will try with the Karini + Storm armor combo, because yes, I do die easier than I'd like. These days people probably don't consider toughness to be "reasonable" until like paragon 1,500 with full augments or something.


The Karini is great. I had been running COE since I didn't have a Karini. As soon as I got one, I sent up 15 - 20GR levels.

@TinneOnnMuin: Awesome explanation there!

As far as out of Archon phase, that is something I am still working on getting better at myself. I am not sure how much of it is gear and breakpoints, or adapting to what I have CDR and AS. I am finding that even though using a Teleport and Black hole eats Zodiac procs from Archon reset, sometimes I'll cycle though a lot faster by using them right away when I come out of Archon (for the purpose of getting to and grouping up *more* enemies). Mostly I get both archon off CD and chantodo's built up at same time, max within the time of one black hole CD so can pop a black hole before going back into archon.

I am sure that could be more efficient (ie move to more density sooner so it's there when archon comes off) or I just need to push higher GR so stuff doesn't die so fast. :D
I have a question about the time bubbles. A another wiz got mad at me for casting them while in Archon. He just kept screaming and wouldn't explain.

Does it make that big of a difference?
05/25/2019 01:53 AMPosted by SimpleDave
I have a question about the time bubbles. A another wiz got mad at me for casting them while in Archon. He just kept screaming and wouldn't explain.

Does it make that big of a difference?

What? I always use slow time. That guy was smoking something. However I did kill my other wiz one time because the RG used an ability that sends a wave out, and the wave got stuck in the Buble and did ticking damage until I almost died and the other wiz did die. Had it passed through us, it wouldn't have hurt so bad.

I forget the name of that boss.
Hi

I am using Explosive Blast + Orb of Infinite Depth.
I like the 80% DR from this Orb while outside of Archon.
Likewise, I've seen the EB exploding adding 3 more Chantodo stacks for the next round.

But most Vyr builds I've seen uses Blackhole.
Questions:
1. Does Blackhole proc Chantodo stacks?
2. If so, can it add multiple stacks?

In addition. I use Archon Strike, a melee attack so I can take advantage of the chantodo wave along with my own Archon Blast. But i've seen expert players using the Disintigration wave too... Does Archon stack proc on per enemy hit? or just plain per attack?

thanks
post a video. you should destroy everything instantly at GR80
If you're having problems with toughness I strongly recommend the orb of infinite depth in the cube and use EB instead of black hole. You don't need that massive damage buff from black hole till high GRs anyways. I rarely get enough BH stacks to make it worth while in speeds (trash dies too fast). You can actually reset faster while using explosive blast and you will be a lot tougher.
Update:
As Zilthy posted, the Karini made a huge difference. I'm consistently doing GR90 in under 5 minutes and really only ever die at the very beginning if given a bad setup.

After having practiced a lot of GRs, I came to understand how the build is supposed to work optimally. It's a really cool build because there are so many moving parts that the player has to figure out through experience.

One huge piece I wasn't understanding is the strategy of accumulating archon stacks as quickly as possible PLUS getting back into archon ASAP to have as much uptime as possible with 2 huge archon stacks simultaneously. I see that that is how people push with this build. And with more archon stacks, my toughness while out of archon is also vastly improved so I can easily tank 20 chantodo stacks, making archon easier to re-enter and proving the importance of CDR; I'm finding myself waiting on archon cooldown so clearly I need more CDR.

Cool build.
For speed GR bellow 90 I use MH, Zei, Starfire (insteed of CoE, Stricken and Furnance). It actually blast anything anytime I don't even care about chantodo stacks anymore and speed up 90s in less than 3mn.
With a 10% CDR on weapon, I have 62.6% total CDR
Without it, I have 58.45% CDR...

Is Cooldown on the weapon a must have?
I mean, we run with Zodiac... isn't that enough to reset Archon cooldown?
Because, most of the time, if not all the time, I am waiting for the chantodo stacks instead of the Archon.
First im so sorry my English. İ have a question for Vyr Wiz. Why all player playing Cold Elemantal Damage? Why they dont play fire or arcane damage? This set bonus have " gain all rune". -_-
05/26/2019 04:42 AMPosted by Astig
With a 10% CDR on weapon, I have 62.6% total CDR
Without it, I have 58.45% CDR...

Is Cooldown on the weapon a must have?
I mean, we run with Zodiac... isn't that enough to reset Archon cooldown?
Because, most of the time, if not all the time, I am waiting for the chantodo stacks instead of the Archon.


you can remove CDR on weapon. I play with 54% cdr and I'm fine (did GR122 yet with 3.1m and 1150 para)

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