[PT2] Diablo IV - What do we expect?

General Discussion
Punishment lol. There is a huge difference between designing some arbitrary punishment as compared to some believable reasonable consequence to inexperience or failure.

Using strictly cold spells, level up and you magically gain access to fireball. Reach max level you can instantly change your entire build to something completely unrelated to what you were playing and be proficient using any skill.

If you can be anything within the definition of a class, what are you besides that class. Are you really building a character if it can be changed completely instantly? Nothing is learned, nothing is earned. Complete sandbox mode. Zero integrity just like everything Diablo 3.
06/11/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Orrion
lol.

More like the old fashioned way just didn't work. I played the hell out of the game back then and didn't get much to show for it (though I used the AH, not the RMAH).


:D Of course D3 was a ton of BS... doesn't change the fact numerous successful loot based ARPGs did it right. They didn't treat their players like whiners.

06/11/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Orrion
gaming as a whole has moved away from overly punishing the player.


Right, it moved away but too deep into 'no consequences' territory. They even dictate your build and your gear, just in case you 'screw it up'... it's like trying to make a kid interested in skating and you give him his 1st board and then proceed to wrap him in thick layers of plastic: 'you'll be safe'. Just a basic helm and knee/elbow protection would do. No need to suck all the fun out of it.
06/12/2019 07:05 AMPosted by TobiasPeste

06/11/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Orrion
gaming as a whole has moved away from overly punishing the player.


Right, it moved away but too deep into 'no consequences' territory. They even dictate your build and your gear, just in case you 'screw it up'... it's like trying to make a kid interested in skating and you give him his 1st board and then proceed to wrap him in thick layers of plastic: 'you'll be safe'. Just a basic helm and knee/elbow protection would do. No need to suck all the fun out of it.


I'm not completely sure "no consequences" was the intention with that. It's not like it was part of the original design, for one thing, and for another people still screw up plenty.
06/10/2019 10:05 AMPosted by Orrion
When I say D3 is critically acclaimed, I mean every gaming website and magazine and other media that people pay attention to has praised it, especially after RoS.


Modern game journalists are a joke. One of then failed to pass on tutorial of cuphead and i saw another that complained because you can't kill an insect swarm on pathfinder kingmaker with an sharp blade/point sticky(what he expect)

06/11/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Metro
No more bots. I thought Blizzard came up with a foolproof system that DemonBuddy could not crack


People only use bots/macros on games that are insanely repetitive without any depth
06/11/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Orrion
But then you have to ask yourself - was that meant to be punishment, or was some of it just technological limitations being overcome?


Making failure having consequences make the fight much more interesting. Same with sports, the team A vs team B on finals are much more tense and interesting than an "friendly" competition where both has nothing to lose or gain.

=======================

Anyway, the idea that old school cRPG's don' sell isn't true; Neverwinter Nights received an enhanced edition and an android port. At least on my country, he is the top 5 most purchased app on his price category. In the ultra casual cellphone market, beamdog is making a lot of success.

And despite i an not being an huge fan, classic wow is being an success. Bliz will probably recover a lot of market share and importance in next months .
People only use bots/macros on games that are insanely repetitive without any depth


Sooo like d2? I mean botting is pretty common there.

06/13/2019 06:57 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Anyway, the idea that old school cRPG's don' sell isn't true; Neverwinter Nights received an enhanced edition and an android port. At least on my country, he is the top 5 most purchased app on his price category. In the ultra casual cellphone market, beamdog is making a lot of success.


They probably still sell, but it's not the "new game from a triple A" sales. I would say that the most people buying these enhanced editions are people who already played it back in the day. Not to say these nostalgia games dont have a place, it's just that they are not covering any new grounds.
06/10/2019 10:05 AMPosted by Orrion
When I say D3 is critically acclaimed, I mean every gaming website and magazine and other media that people pay attention to has praised it, especially after RoS.


Modern game journalists are a joke. One of then failed to pass on tutorial of cuphead and i saw another that complained because you can't kill an insect swarm on pathfinder kingmaker with an sharp blade/point sticky(what he expect)


You’ve quoted from them before. Who do you think made that “top 25 RPG” list you touted in one of your threads? Who do you think did that interview with the Tales dev?

You can’t say they’re bad except when you use them.

Besides, what makes Metacritic better? Do you seriously think there aren’t any stupid reviews there?

06/11/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Orrion
But then you have to ask yourself - was that meant to be punishment, or was some of it just technological limitations being overcome?


Making failure having consequences make the fight much more interesting. Same with sports, the team A vs team B on finals are much more tense and interesting than an "friendly" competition where both has nothing to lose or gain.


Kind of irrelevant to what you quoted.

And your example sucks. Everyone is much more focused on the rewards for winning finals. THAT’s where the emotion comes from - wanting to win, not fearing to fail. The losing team still gets some prestige, anyway, just for getting there.
06/13/2019 08:27 AMPosted by Rashiel
Sooo like d2? I mean botting is pretty common there.


Depends. The "journey" to end game of D2 is good. The end game of D2 is incredible tedious and repetitive.

Someone uses bots because he wanna the items, but don't wanna play the game. In that case, i wanna ask. Is the game fun in the first place?

06/13/2019 08:27 AMPosted by Rashiel
They probably still sell, but it's not the "new game from a triple A" sales. I would say that the most people buying these enhanced editions are people who already played it back in the day. Not to say these nostalgia games dont have a place, it's just that they are not covering any new grounds.

[/quote]

I disagree. On GOG, Diablo 1 still one of the best ranked games and there are modern games on gog, despite the focus on old games. About "nostalgia games", i disagree with the therm. People like old school RPG's/aRPG's not only due nostalgia. But because they offer more interesting stuff and much more immersion.

A lot of people like old games, not by nostalgia. My guess is because they offer :
- More interesting things to do
- More interesting ways to shape your character
- More meaningful choices
- More immersion into your character "skin"
(...)

Almost everything that i mentioned on this thread, Diablo had on the past.
Someone uses bots because he wanna the items, but don't wanna play the game. In that case, i wanna ask. Is the game fun in the first place?


Sooo is d2 fun or not?, I mean i'm not against d2 in whether it's fun, but usually you trash d3 in most cases. So when you said:

People only use bots/macros on games that are insanely repetitive without any depth


I wondered if you were aiming for d3, cause that's usually how you refer it as. Imo, having bots or not doesn't necessarily mean a game is fun or not, it's usually something that could be gained from doing it, either monetary (such as gold sellers), or just item farming, or a combination of both.

In almost every game that has a gain from monotonous farming, there will always be bots, no matter if it's d1-3, wow, wow classic,poe, gd etc etc.

06/13/2019 10:36 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
About "nostalgia games", i disagree with the therm. People like old school RPG's/aRPG's not only due nostalgia. But because they offer more interesting stuff and much more immersion.


Excuse me for using nostalgia for lack of a better word, but to some degree i'm right in this, you may buy enhanced editions and re-releases to try and re-live the feeling you had from playing these games the first time. And the selection of these games are quite limited compared to other genres.

I dunno, do you really believe that a little kid will pick up baldur's gate because it looks like a fun adventure nowadays?
06/13/2019 12:25 PMPosted by Rashiel
Sooo is d2 fun or not?, I mean i'm not against d2 in whether it's fun, but usually you trash d3 in most cases. So when you said:


The end game of D2 is not fun.

The journey of normal/nightmare/hell, act 1/2/3/4/5 is an amazing experience.

06/13/2019 12:25 PMPosted by Rashiel
I dunno, do you really believe that a little kid will pick up baldur's gate because it looks like a fun adventure nowadays?

[/quote]

An little kid not. BG target audience is not kids. Not even on 90s. Being very honest, an story about the God of murder(Baal) impregnating a lot of woman and wanting to use his own child to things that i will not spoil is not an "family friendly" story or adequate to children. An young adult is much more likely to like it and have the "patience" to understand the game rules. But i heard about pathfinder kingmaker by a colleague recommendation and was the unique game that i pre ordered on my life.

I can't imagine an 5 yo child in 90s interested on Diablo 1 either. And D1 is an amazing game
@Victor
The journey of normal/nightmare/hell, act 1/2/3/4/5 is an amazing experience.

Sure, a few times it is fun to go through act 1/2/3/4/5 normal ---> act 1/2/3/4/5 nightmare ---> act 1/2/3/4/5 hell, but having to repeat that on every single character just becomes tedious after a while for many people.

The idea of Adventure Mode (not necessarily the execution of bounties, but the idea of a separate game mode where all waypoints are unlocked and you can immediately travel everywhere you want from the beginning) as an alternative to story mode was one of the best additions to Diablo 3 and one of the things that makes D3 better than D2 (yes, D2 was better in other things than D3, but in this regards D3 was better).

That is at least my opinion.
06/08/2019 04:34 AMPosted by kagan
this is all well and good for single player, but most of these "additions" didnt even make it to d2 for a reason.

iron maiden curse basically made it so barbarians could not run act 4 at all ever, why would this be fun?

honestly i wanna see the loot table from d2 with the skill trees from d3, with a great story and awesome game modes like we have now.

if d3 was its current incarnation at launch it would have been 1000x more successful.

I ran Act 4 in Hell mode with barbs without a problem (mostly!). There was a pattern to Oblivion Knights and their usage of Iron Maiden. It also forced you to prioritize targets... you had to run around like a chicken with Iron Maiden until it expired and then WW some Oblivion Knights until they were all gone!

Oh, it looks like they don't cast Iron Maiden anymore :(
https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Oblivion_Knight

I don't know man, this sort of target prioritization and strategic game play was appealing and fun when it worked. It was only frustrating if you missed something and got Iron Maiden'd mid WW! Anyway, Act 4 Hell with barb: Very doable with practice.
06/13/2019 01:59 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I can't imagine an 5 yo child in 90s interested on Diablo 1 either. And D1 is an amazing game


I was more refering to ages 8-12, when kids start venturing into more grownup games.

These types of games doesn't feel like the masses games of today that kids play together. Games like fortnite and or overwatch are certainly more appealing for multiplayer, and in singleplayer you have even more through consoles.

What I'm trying to say is that these old games are appealing to people like us who grew up with these games, when they were the top games, nowadays they are moving further into the niche genre. Not to belittle them, since they are still amazing games, but pulling the younger audience into these games is a lot harder.

And why is that so important? Well for the genre to survive you have to have an influx of new and fresh players, which in turn makes them interested in buying more games in that genre. That's why companies like nintendo can pump out a new zelda or mario every 2 years, because it grabs the attention of a younger audience early.

So, finding people that would get interested in these slower rpgs may be quite limited due to people from younger ages getting into completly different games.
some people have way to much time on there hands. D1 D2 D3 out of all I like D2 the most, but that's what I think, not what they make. look at diablo immortal. eh
06/13/2019 02:25 PMPosted by clueso
The idea of Adventure Mode (not necessarily the execution of bounties, but the idea of a separate game mode where all waypoints are unlocked and you can immediately travel everywhere you want from the beginning) as an alternative to story mode was one of the best additions to Diablo 3 and one of the things that makes D3 better than D2 (yes, D2 was better in other things than D3, but in this regards D3 was better).


Yes, you are right.

About the "journey" starting to become tedious, i completed the "journey" a lot of times and is true. Each time is less interesting.

06/13/2019 03:43 PMPosted by nslay
I don't know man, this sort of target prioritization and strategic game play was appealing and fun when it worked. It was only frustrating if you missed something and got Iron Maiden'd mid WW! Anyway, Act 4 Hell with barb: Very doable with practice.


Well said, I like D2 that you fear some enemies, not only because they can trow a lot of numbers and resist a lot of numbers, but because they can do interesting stuff.

06/13/2019 03:43 PMPosted by Rashiel
So, finding people that would get interested in these slower rpgs may be quite limited due to people from younger ages getting into completly different games.


You can adapt the campaign to be much more fast paced. Icewind Dale is far more fast paced than Baldur's Gate, not fast paced as Diablo 2, but an very fast paced game. And the 5e of D&D has much easier rules to understand. An modern game in 5e rules will not have an "entry barrier" Being very honest, THAC0, AC and other rules are hard to grasp for those who never played an pnp game. BG3 that Laerien announced will probably be an awful game if they decide to change everything from core rules. sword coast legends tried it an the studio got bankrupted. No dice rolls, no skill checks, no misses, no everything from dnd, but CDs, skill trees, and etc; SCL barely resembles an D&D game. Is so bad that i rather face Bed of Chaos on DkS again than play SCL. And even D3 awful end game is more fun than Bed of Chaos. I think that is the worst boss that i saw in any game.

Anyway, i will not classify an game where i can kill two dragons in 2 minutes ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZa9MDbH4Zk) or that i can solo one of the hardest bosses in hardest difficulty in 2:20 as an "slow rpg" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsaFosVlEqc ), BTW neverwinter nights is much more fast paced than neverwinter mmo

honestly, this is faster than killing hell baal on D2 if you don't have end game gear.

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Action focused RPG's sell more than story focused RPG's, this is why Diablo 1 sold so amazingly well on 90s.

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