Free’s Barb Proposal is Communist Propaganda

Barbarian
Haha. Now that I’ve got your attention, I wanted to say that you guys did a great job compiling ideas.

But I still think the game will never change mechanically and the most they’ll do from now on is Season themes + direct number changes. That means definitely no new legendary reworks for Barbs and definitely no new mechanics for any class.

I also think many of your proposed buffs just aren’t enough.

On Whirlwind; yes it has some outlier clears (the results of extreme fishing) but in reality it’s way behind damage wise. You could double Whirlwind damage right now (to 20,000% set bonus) and the set would still be bad for pushing.

Barb’s only on the solo leaderboards at all beyond 130 due to Raekor and its excrutiatingly bad mechanics.

Barb’s just a mess right now. And the game is too old for any of this to be of import.
Hey Arch,

First off, you're probably right that our "pitch" is a lost cause. But, it never hurts to try!

I've heard you express that view of WW a few times, and it's a little confusing to me. Where you say "extreme fishing", I basically just hear "playing the game".

Every build has a sort of "spread", between the highest rift you can do every time (i.e. you never fail), an average clear (a GR level you can complete maybe 50% of the time) and the highest you can do in an extended push. For some builds that's narrower, like for R6 it's probably 5-7 GR levels. With MOTE I've found it to be maybe 10-11 GR levels, and with WW maybe 12-14 or something like that. And average clear somewhere in the middle of that range.

When Free and I were debating various stuff in the thread leading up to the document, we weighed out trying to balance sets by average clear vs top clear. Balancing by average clear, of course, would mean builds with a bigger "spread" are ultimately going to have a higher top clear, in which case WW would almost certainly be our #1 set, and MOTE #2.

Ultimately, we decided to try to balance by top clear instead, as this approach seemed more rewarding to the particular sets which are hardest to play.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words, and I guess we'll all see what Blizz decides to do!
By extreme fishing I mean that Whirlwind (even when optimally geared with a ton of paragon and max gems) has no damage.

Because it has no damage, it only deals comparable dps in perfect conditions.

That means that the rift WW needs to clear a 130 can be a 133+ with Raekor. And it means a Whirlwind 130 14m40s clear is like a 12:00min clear for Raekor.

That’s what I mean by extreme fishing. Whirlwind clears require perfect circumstances and amazing conduits / good elites to clear anywhere close to Raekor because it has no damage and particularly no damage against single target. So not only does it need a stupid rift it also needs stupid conduits and follow ups to make 5-6mins or even more for the boss. And if the boss isn’t Saxtris or Hamelin, maybe even longer on 130.

I get that fishing is part of the game, but Whirlwind falls into a category of “literally can’t play anything that isn’t a world class map” levels of fishing to clear anywhere close to Raekor.

That means it sucks.

You guys added a list with the highest NS clears for every class but the max WW clear is super misleading.

How about looking at the averages? I’ll bet anything the average WW clear is 8-10 tiers below Raekor. Not 1 or 2 tiers.
I mostly agree with you.

But, WW clearly flourishes, more than R6 does, in super-extreme density. And yeah, you're absolutely right that it takes a long time to fish out a rift like that.

However, given that same super-dense rift, I think Raekor will do well, but not super-well. R6 just doesn't deal damage over such a wide area the way WW does. If a rift like that was really a 12 minute clear for R6, I think we'd be seeing a lot more 130+ clears with the set (and a lot more 12 minute clears between 125 and 130) But currently, as far as I know, there are only two at 130+ (Lucio and Hion).

Edit:

06/25/2019 03:23 PMPosted by Archael
How about looking at the averages? I’ll bet anything the average WW clear is 8-10 tiers below Raekor. Not 1 or 2 tiers.

I agree with you. By average, WW is way behind. Like I said, we thought about balancing by average, but decided against it.
Raekor is nowhere near as fishy as WW because it’s much more powerful.

I’ve seen several of Hion and Lucio’s Raekor map clears and the maps they cleared on are all completely unplayable for WW. I’m talking instant leave. That should tell you a lot.

The two sets are seriously not close to eachother at all man. Whirlwind is many many tiers behind Raekor and if anyone disagrees I would seriously question their solo push experience.

Raekor will do higher with less, regardless of paragon level, gems, or gear. It’s simply a lot stronger.

Edit: oh I see. Well, why? The averages say a lot more. The max is mostly just crazy RNG helping sets along beyond their normal capabilities.
You playing much these days? I remember you said a while back you were mostly playing Wiz. You been pushing with the new VyrWiz? Or been doing groups... or playing "that other game" that has captured S4v4g3?
I tend to agree with Arch regarding whirlwind damage. But it's important to point out that the changes in List 2 would significantly help the build at all tears. Yes, it would still be considerably more fishy than other builds, but it would also be considerably less fishy than it is now. And I think that's okay because of the way the build works, and deals damage, and can benefit from Ancient Spear.

You'll notice that we didn't try to jack up set bonuses. That's because we believe that should be done were considered after addressing the larger issue, which is our supporting legendaries. So, in a way, I'm trying to say that there is still work to be done but that this first crucial step is what is needed to get us going in that direction.

Also, yes: It is all communist propaganda.
Fwiw, I'm optimistic that Barb's will get something good next patch. 2.6.5 added cool new toys for every other class, and based on that blue post by Nev they kind of owe us one.

So fingers crossed Free's post gets some attention by the devs!
I only play Wiz and DH these days but I’m interested in getting the world Fire EQ clear with a 128 atleast.

128 is very doable. 130 extreme fish. EQ sucks at the boss.
06/25/2019 04:07 PMPosted by Archael
I only play Wiz and DH these days but I’m interested in getting the world Fire EQ clear with a 128 atleast.

128 is very doable. 130 extreme fish. EQ sucks at the boss.

Cool, dude. If you go for it, any chance you can record it for posterity?
I'm new to this whole discussion but it seems to me that this debate might be a little silly. Why are we working under the assumption that all builds should be able to clear at equal levels when played solo? Sure there should be a general balance to each build a given class can bring to the table, but it seems right and just that a build doing better area damage should do less against fewer larger targets. Let that be the job of another teammate, or when playing solo play the build for it. The idea that any classes spread of builds is ever going to be perfectly balanced at the very highest levels of the game is just not realistic. I'd much rather see Blizzard work for diversity before balance and correct as needed. Something the whole set mechanic frankly makes impossible.
06/30/2019 03:32 PMPosted by Cody
I'm new to this whole discussion but it seems to me that this debate might be a little silly. Why are we working under the assumption that all builds should be able to clear at equal levels when played solo? Sure there should be a general balance to each build a given class can bring to the table, but it seems right and just that a build doing better area damage should do less against fewer larger targets. Let that be the job of another teammate, or when playing solo play the build for it. The idea that any classes spread of builds is ever going to be perfectly balanced at the very highest levels of the game is just not realistic. I'd much rather see Blizzard work for diversity before balance and correct as needed. Something the whole set mechanic frankly makes impossible.


That's what Rage and Free think is best for the class, so that is what they proposed. I'd recommend posting any suggestions to the actual feedback thread as this one wasn't really intended for it. They do welcome fresh perspectives.
Oh, same old I see. Nothing have changed.

1. WW sucks, whoever thinks that it is 2-3 GR below is blind. Set is broken. Build performance cannot be based on couple clears done by masochists that have no issues going thru 1000 keys. If WW was strong, people would play it more.

2. Wall banging is just another gimmicky mechanic. I said this many times, barb top clears always had something stupid or unintentional. PE and stricken snapshot (when WW was strongest build) animation canceling and wall banging (Hybrid charge top build) thornzy that was a 6 months of theorycrafying that never was suppose to be a build, now it is wall banging again as a mandatory technique.

3. EQ single target sucks. Ever since they removed heals via quakes caused by procs, sustain is non existent without compromising natural flow of the build. Slowest stricken stacking in all barb builds.

4. Idiotic set inconsistencies

- Rend in Wastes that is completely useless

- 7 piece MoTE set + mandatory passive (lut socks and Earthen might, only set that doesn’t function at all without one of those or both)

- Charge based set that doesn’t support charge but spenders.

- Generator/Spender set that is worse at it as charge set

Why they didn’t listen when they had a chance. I described consequences very clearly back than. All they had to do was move 4 and 6 set Raekors bonus, and they would never had issues with proper number adjustments. Now, Barb is condemned with hybrid that historically was always an issue in balancing, and doesn’t have proper charge build. Here is the situation:

- generator/spender set (IK) cannot be properly buffed because it will overpower hybrid
- spender skills and items cannot be buffed because it will overpower the new spender set (Raekors)
- Furious charge build is effectively IK build, not Raekors
- Raekors is spender set, not Furious charge set
- Raekors doesn’t have any build in mitigation, where set should be simple staging with all runes - > bade damage + mitigation per stack - > Furious charge damage base + bonus per stack

In short, they shot themselfes in the foot back than by letting hybrid become a thing. If they would’ve listen to that reasoning back than, we would’ have any issues with balancing and wouldn’t have to worry about stupid sh!t like hybrid being too strong because we want a proper primary skill build or generator/spender build.
06/30/2019 07:53 PMPosted by S4v4G3
1. WW sucks, whoever thinks that it is 2-3 GR below is blind. Set is broken. Build performance cannot be based on couple clears done by masochists that have no issues going thru 1000 keys. If WW was strong, people would play it more.


If you read our proposal in depth, particularly for List 2, you'll find we address these problems.

06/30/2019 07:53 PMPosted by S4v4G3
3. EQ single target sucks. Ever since they removed heals via quakes caused by procs, sustain is non existent without compromising natural flow of the build.


True, but EQ was always meant to be an AOE build. Should AOE-focused builds also be equally as good at single-target damage? Should a build have no discernible strengths and weaknesses? I would argue that the single-target damage is annoying given the mechanics behind RGs, but we definitely came up with some innovative (and simple) ways to ease the problem.

But as for sustain? Hmm. I think you'll find that any MOTE build with Band of Might and Esoteric or Gogok is plenty tanky. Sure, you lose CoE, but very high clears have been completed without it. The Battle Rage options have proven to be very strong as well.

Anyway, we did a lot of work for MOTE-based builds, and I think you'll find a lot to like in the proposal. And we're about to add a lot more that tackles inter-class parity problems. Check the proposal thread for more info.

06/30/2019 03:32 PMPosted by Cody
Why are we working under the assumption that all builds should be able to clear at equal levels when played solo?


That isn't the assumption we are working under. If you read our proposal, particularly the Core Problems and Solutions sections, you'll see we take a slightly different approach. In short, builds that are demanding in terms of gear and skill should possess more power potential (higher potential GR clear), and builds that are less demanding should have lower clears. However, we don't want the disparity to be so severe that players feel discouraged from playing their favorite build.

From there, we buff to achieve better parity, but we still keep a few tiers of difference between certain builds. We also discuss how certain builds have yet to realize their full potential (R6 HOTA). And as previously noted, we're about to do a massive update. Stay tuned.
I like his madness, I wish I could see the sparks bouncing out of the keyboard while he was crafting this satanic melody of hell. Again too bad they aren't listening. I will always wonder.. who the heck are those dumb dumb sitting at that circle table.

Dumb #1: Alright boys, Who was in charge of the Donuts today?

Dumber #1: Oh !@#$! It was #2, he's late. Let'S start the meeting anyhow.

Dumb #2: Wait wait! I'm there, I got the coffee too! Let's do this.

Dumber #1: Again eh? always late. Gimme those donuts before #1 dig in there. Grguggg.. Grump. Humm good stuff, the gelly. Arl..right bo..ys who's got a idea for this balancing meeting.

Smart #1: Errr Guy's, There is the forum where people express them self and give us good idea that would reflect what the community really expect that we mess up. What you think if listen to them and do something marvelous this time, eh?

Dumber #1: WTF!?
Dumb #1,#2: hein??? What? The heck ?

Dumber #1: Who of you two invited him?

Dumber #2: *Out of breath* Pfffffme. FFFfffsoooorry. I'm lateffffff. Pfew! It's my cousin guys, cut him some slack.

@ and it goes on... for hours until they wrap this up because Mr.BigBossCutterOfBudget&BigMoneyBonusAtTheEndOfTheYearForHim deceided that it wasn't worth it to do what was right.

Anyone else has a take on that? I had time to waste.
awww his post got deleted, well he it wasn't nice I agree.
The problem with balancing around an average GR for all builds is, after the top build, and this goes for all classes, it's hard to get an accurate average of the other builds due to most players focusing on the top builds.
06/25/2019 03:09 PMPosted by Rage
I've heard you express that view of WW a few times, and it's a little confusing to me. Where you say "extreme fishing", I basically just hear "playing the game".


If you think extreme fishing is playing the game you need to jump off a bridge.

Your idiotic consistencies are the reason why this game & forums have become a toxic cesspool of retardation.

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