Barbarian Community Buff Proposal--UPDATES ARE LIVE!

General Discussion
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07/07/2019 04:47 PMPosted by MOE
I think it'd be fair to say, maybe Barb should either be nerfed in the group support meta some what or Saders get a buff in group support meta to be in level with Barbs, befor Barbs get a good boost to their solo capacity. IMO this is a fair trade off.
Barb still is the most sort after class in the group meta.


We do not want support Barbs nerfed into the ground. Playing support allows many low-Paragon players access to legit end-game content, xp, gem levels, and upgrades not otherwise accessible. And playing support takes skill--outside Rats and certain speed comps, a good zBarb makes or breaks her team.

Do we think other classes should have options for group play? Absolutely!

But we're not experts in those classes. We prefer to let folk who know those classes inside and out come up with their own solutions. Our focus remains squarely on Barbs.

And as for putting other classes ahead of Barb?

NO FRIGGIN' WAY.

Barbs have always taken a backseat--just look at last patch. We got absolutely NOTHING.
07/07/2019 04:47 PMPosted by MOE
I think it'd be fair to say, maybe Barb should either be nerfed in the group support meta some what or Saders get a buff in group support meta to be in level with Barbs, befor Barbs get a good boost to their solo capacity. IMO this is a fair trade off.
Barb still is the most sort after class in the group meta.


No need to ask for barb nerfs, just work with other sader-main players to propose or ask for changes that'll benefit saders support capability.
07/07/2019 09:19 PMPosted by Oblivion
No need to ask for barb nerfs, just work with other sader-main players to propose or ask for changes that'll benefit saders support capability.


Agreed.

Barb solo potential is 4.1 tiers behind the average of other classes, and the lowest globally on a class by class comparison. Barbs need buffs and have for a long time.

If other classes need buffs (cough, Monks, cough) they should do what we did: organize, discuss, and take initiative. The answer is almost never: NERF OTHER CLASSES.

Except, maybe, Bazooka Wizard is a little ridiculous right now, so that might need to come down a bit.
07/02/2019 07:09 PMPosted by Crayon
07/02/2019 06:00 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Just want to say - this hasn't gone unnoticed. As you know, I can't make any promises. But I can make sure the appropriate eyes take a look, and I've made sure that's the case. :)

Thanks for all the hard work you do for the Barbarian community, Free (as well as to everyone else who contributed). It's greatly appreciated!
Lool what a load of BS :)
Just leave the forums please. You add nothing at all to the discussion, only negativity..
crusader need some love too, he has a lot of unused cool skills
07/09/2019 01:26 AMPosted by Schyzo
crusader need some love too, he has a lot of unused cool skills

So go make a Crusader document / thread and ask for buffs rather than derail a Barbarian thread.
Thanks for the interessting read. There are many problems addressed and a lot of possible solutions presented. I really like such discussions. Unfortunately I don't have that much time to participate here. But I want to point on some issues don't mentioned in the proposal.

TL&DR:
Top 1000 statistics below for all classes and realms (except China).
Barb has some noticeable issues that have to be addressed. But way more crucial to bring the game in line is to fix broken stuff, e.g. Bazooka, Wall-Charging - and revisit some concept details like AoE, GR-Cap, infinite multipliers, etc.

During the seasonal buffs of the last two seasons it isn't possible to use these rankings for class specific statistics. In S16 some classes got more benefit from the RoRG buff than others, as some classes now in S17 do from the LoN theme.
The non seasonal rankings are kind of corrupted by the Paragon 2.0 System. That means the Paragon differences ranging from let say 1k Paragon up to 10k Paragon. Well, ok, you didn't look at anything else than top 10 ranks. But at least those very very very few ranks are a not siginificant part of the whole thing.

So I took a look in top 1000 statistics:
The listing below shows the average GR that was cleared within the current top 1000 of all classes and realms (eu, us, as) ...

Barb: 113.36 | 109.34 | 111.15 | Avg. 111.28
Crus: 116.40 | 113.22 | 116.60 | Avg. 115.40
DH: 121.99 | 119.50 | 121.98 | Avg. 121.15
Monk: 113.12 | 108.45 | 110.36 | Avg. 110.64
Nec: 110.87 | 105.75 | 107.18 | Avg. 107.93
WD: 115.32 | 110.93 | 109.96 | Avg. 112.07
Wiz: 126.05 | 121.40 | 123.41 | Avg. 123.62
-----------------------------------------------------
Avg: 116.73 | 112.65 | 123.41

The overall average is 114.59.

This shows, Barb lacks behind for about 3.3 GR the average not 4.1 shown as a result of top 10 statistics. Well its an issue. Or maybe not?
As we see, Monk performs worse than Barb, but it is close since it's a difference of less than 1 GR. Surprisingly these statistic shows the Necromancer as weakest class of all - by far! How is that possible? The next question is, what about Wizard and uhhh look at the DH average.

At least at that point we have to take a closer look into other classes, even if we're fellow Barb players.

As we might conclude is that the Wizards statistics are strongly affected by the well known Bazooka issue. Even if Chantodo Vyrs is viable to clear higher GRs than any other class/build, it wouldn't push the average to the current regions. I don't know how many GR-Levels a Bazooka-Nerf would decrease the average for the Wizard. But it would also lower the gap between Barb and the average.

But ok, lets look further. The top 1000 statistics comes up with two classes performing worst than Barbs. Normaly we wouldn't care about, b/c we are fellow Barb's! :D
If we would take a deeper look into the Monk inssues we might find some mechanical problems we have addressed for the Barb class as well. So lets skip this.

Now the question is, what's up with Necromancer class? This class has by far the most critical issues of all classes. I don't want to go that deep into that topic. But the statistic might be wrong, b/c we all know, that Necromancers can clear 120+ easily. I don't know - apart from any seasonal buffs - how LoN Lancers performing above GR120. What I know is, that LoN Thorns is the current top build of that class for solo. If we take a look into the mechanics behind this build, we encounter a not intended damage multiplier caused by Necromancer's pets. This causes in an additional multplier of 700%. That kicks the build upwards for roughly 13 GR-Levels. Fix that issue in your mind an you will see the Necromancer's top clears in the region of GR125-127, b/c the "old" builds of that class didn't get buffed during the last patches. Again, the overall average would decrease.
I don't want to clarify the reasons for the missing Necromancer pushes. I think it has something to do with the hidden mechanics of that thorns build.

We might spin the classes like we want. In every scenario one will be the weakest and one will be the strongest. If the gap isn't that big there's no problem. But we notice a large gap. Not because the other classes are significantly stronger that Barbs. No, its b/c some classes are just broken, escpecially Wizard and Necromancer.
For those issues, buffing the Barb class, isn't the right way, to achieve "class balance"!!! There must be fixes to get the mechanics behind the issues back under control. In this case, we wouldn't talk about 3 or 4 GRs difference, but maybe about 1 or 2 GRs - and that would be in line or explainable by some RNG factors or global community issues.

Yes, there might be some overpowered classes or at least builds/items. Demon Hunter seems to be such an issue, if we consider the statistics. I am not sure what this is about. Is it just about the Rapid Fire buffs? Are they too much? Or is it possibly an issue with Natalya's? As we remember back as N6M4 was the !@#$ for DH. This build was never intended but tolerated by Blizzard.

The other possible overpowered mechanic is Chantodo's combined with Vyr's. But that in my opinion was a well 'balanced' buff. Same goes for the DoD-Buffs for WD's. Both were a step forward and made higher GR's possible than before.
Now, here is the region for buffing other classes to the same level or slightly above. Lets say - now, Barb's performing 2 GRs below other classes (but not all). That gap is quiet ok and maybe after one of the upcoming patches we clear 1 or 2 GR's higher than other classes.

Ok, lets go back to the proposal ...
The negatives were called, but no one points to the positives. Yes, Barb's might only get into META groups as some kind of supporter. That sounds terrible in case we're strong and wild Barbarians and we want to smash something down to progress through a rift. In this case, your proposal is absolutely right and back in S16 it was a pleasure to play a Barb in the role of the Trash Killer.
Again - if we blind out Bazooka - Barb was viable to the low 140th GR's and not that far behind Star Pact Wizards. That's a good base for further balancing. But, this was almost only possible due to the season buff, that increased the damage of I6R4 for 125%.
So lets say buffing the Vile Ward to ~80% would bringt I6R4 as TK into the lower maybe mid 140s. Well, that's only one build targetted. Others are still missing, but might come later. Maybe mid 140s aren't enough, b/c 150 is the goal. But we should do one step after the other.
Problem with that one buff: It would affect the solo capabilities, too. Works for solo means, it is to weak for group play. Works for group otherwise means that is is to strong for solo...

But there are also positive points for the Barb class as well. Apart from Wall-Charging and Enslaved Illusions there were 5 builds performing in the same region. (IK HoTA, Raekor HoTA, I6R4 Vile-Charge, LeapQuake, ZodiacWW)
If you take a look at other classes you won't find such a balance of sets/builds.

Another positive point is the supporter role of Barb's. In case of grouping mobs for utilizing AoE machanics, Barb is by far the strongest class in game. The usage of Ancient Spear is one of the most skill-related abilities in game. You will notice a big difference if you got someone in group who is able to use that skill well or not. The current so called 'Pixel Barb' or 'Tetris Barb' utilized Ground Stomp, too. Also, the usage of that skill isn't achieved by just clicking it next to the Wizard. In META groups the Barb has one of the most responsible slots. That values our class really high.

Well, the requirements for a "good" Support Barb for rat runs aren't that high. But at least, the Barb class got a safe slot for that META. Ask other classes like Crusader or Witch Doctor about grouping issues.

Yes, it would be nice, for every class, to by able to fill every role in group. But that is only achievable bei capping GR's and bring the class powers at a level way beyond that cap. Just compare with vanilla where every class might play as DD to run through the crypt. There were still BIS combinations, but it was possible to carry a 4th man through the game regardless of what he was playing.

Currently we're facing GR150 as maximum possible. A very few combination of classes was able to achieve that goal. At least GR150 clears are dominated by broken Bazooka Wizard, broken Thorns Necros and Support Monks and Barbs, supporting the broken AD-Mechanism.
People don't cry about broken mechanics, but they cry about GR150 is not enough. Well ... roleeyes ... :)

At least at these issues we might find the source of all evil. Currently if we look at the 4p rankings and GR150, Paragon 2.0 seems to be not longer an issue, if the clears are possible with "only" 2,5k Paragon.
But the AD-Problem still stays in the game. On the one side, it offers us the possibility to play as support Barb to support the AoE stuff. On the other side the Barb class is some kind of "AoE driven".

But now the question: Which class isn't - or which class offers alternatives? DH with Shadow Impale with its multiplier of doom. Shot gun Crusader with its "stricken-like" Offhand. Maybe DoD-WD. Gen-Monk? Too far away, I think. Same goes for Manald-Wizard and also HoTA Barb. All of those "alternatives" are far far far away from the Necromancer class, that offers several Lancer Builds and Thorn's builds.

I am not sure if I want changes from list 1 or list 2. But I am sure, that the Barb as part of the game needs broken things like described above to be fixed. But be fair, this would include a fix of the Wall-Charging thing and also the Enslaved Illusions. AoE has to be capped at some point same as other possibilities to stack unlimited damage multipliers. (Yes, bye bye Vile Ward.)
Especially the last machanism is a no-go if it isn't available to each class in a similar way. As you can see, Stricken is available for all classes, but items/effects like Bone Ringer are not.

At the end changes like mentioned on list 1 may bring the Barb solo on one level with other classes. Changes made based on a system with critical issues like Bazooka won't work, b/c the relations are wrong.
Changes mentioned in list 2 are possible and maybe the right way. But the whole thing is way bigger than Barb class alone. There should be some changes in core mechanics to bring something in line. But this would affect the mentioned changes in the list, too.

Fixing Wall-Charging would nerf R6 HoTA into the ground. Nerfing limitless damage multiplier would affect I6R4. Ok, that shouldn't hit as hard as Wall-Charging fix does to R6 HoTA - and don't forget about the RG issue of that build. IK HoTA is a fair build but isn't that strong compared to other builds. For LeapQuake I don't really know details, but afaik is that build extremly dependend on map layout and mob types. As it counts for the Zodiac-WW. But for this build there is a possibility to step in: The Rend-Bonus of the set. No! Rend should be used as a damage skill but why not as some kind of support skill? Affected enemies take x% more damage from WW. Problem solved. Rend might stay in relation with WW, get some utility and doens't affect group play.

In a far future as part of separate projects the community might discuss possibilities of making useless skills useful. There is no need, to achieve that in just one take! Haste makes waste ... ;)
Just address current issues that are still present and stabilize them first. Then go to the next topic. Yes, I also wonder about Seismic Slam, Avalange, Boulder Toss and a few other skills. But that is an issue the whole game has to deal with not only Barb class!

Weapon Throw, Frenzy and other generator build:
That shall be a point of its own. LoN Frenzy Thorns was quiet funny to play. Not that impressiv like Zodiac-WW but by far not that frustrating like I6R4. But if we remind the design decision of D3 that said, generators providing ressources that are needed to perform powerful (spender-)attacks, then we should bringt generator build into question.
The most popular generator build might be the Gen-Monk. The trade is quiet fair. The Monk deals the more damage the more ressource he has. To make this a little interesting the Monk will lose a lot of his ressource if he hit his maximum amount by generating spirit.
Frenzy Thorns isn't restricted in such a way. It is a pure generator build. In my opinion it is ok for a fun build but by far such a build mustn't competitive! Same might count for the Weapon Throw approach - can't remember on all details behind the idea. But we and Blizzard should keep in mind, that generally a generator build shouldn't be competitive at all, especialy w/o restrictions ... :)

The changes of list 1 won't change the known builds and playstyle. But I think this is crucial to evolve the Barb class to the next level. So i think those changes might be enough for now, but maybe just skipping the problems to later. This might work, if GR150 will stay the cap. But I am affraid that the crying community will result Blizzard in increasing this cap.

That means, list 2 is the kind of changes we need. But not all of them. Some changes mentioned are quiet good, b/c they balance existing builds. But for other changes that focus on skills nobody use today, we need some alternative strategies. And don't forget about possible nerfs and fixes as described above. That would break a few of our builds but offers some place for new styles. But i don't really see innovative new styles in the skills left over w/o in depth changes. Unfortunately we won't see such changes in D3.

We are in maintenance mode. The only changes we will see are adjustments and reconfigurations. Maybe Blizzard steps in and revitalized a few items, which might become alternatives to current items - strict in combination with a specific set.
But they have to take care on balancing support item sets. Why does Raekor utilize HoTA? Because its 1,300% damage multiplier plus 50% IAS. That's way more Seismic-Items, Avalanche-Items, Ancient-Spear-Items can offer. This has to be brought in line, to let the player chose what he wants to play and not beeing forced by the highest multiplier or set bonus.
07/09/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Tallaron
During the seasonal buffs of the last two seasons it isn't possible to use these rankings for class specific statistics. In S16 some classes got more benefit from the RoRG buff than others, as some classes now in S17 do from the LoN theme.
The non seasonal rankings are kind of corrupted by the Paragon 2.0 System. That means the Paragon differences ranging from let say 1k Paragon up to 10k Paragon. Well, ok, you didn't look at anything else than top 10 ranks.


Hey Tallaron. Thank you for the feedback.

Some brief comments before the forums migrate.

Seasonal results are invalid due to the changing, temporary nature of theme buffs. The non-Season leaderboards represent, for better or worse, the permanent state of the game outside of Seasonal themes. And we did examine different spectrums of GR clears by class and region. Barbs do all right in the mid-range (rank 500-510), and they're not terrible in the low range (rank 990-1000). But the top 10 clears highlights the discrepancy in power potential between our classes and others, and it is indeed 4.1 tiers.

Your comment about the "corruption" of the top 10 ranks and Paragon is noted, but we don't agree. The leaderboard data speaks for itself and it is not in favor of Barb.



07/09/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Tallaron
Ok, lets go back to the proposal ...
The negatives were called, but no one points to the positives. Yes, Barb's might only get into META groups as some kind of supporter. That sounds terrible in case we're strong and wild Barbarians and we want to smash something down to progress through a rift. In this case, your proposal is absolutely right and back in S16 it was a pleasure to play a Barb in the role of the Trash Killer.


This is not true. We discuss this in the proposal and our group play buffs are intended for "off-meta" compositions only. The S16 Vile Charge fluke was quickly shelved for other compositions, and while support Barb has a guaranteed spot in groups, it is the only spot we've ever been able to play in non-Season. Remember, non-Season Barbs have never had an opportunity to do anything other than zDPS, and the few brief moments in the sun that Seasonal Barbs received were always shelved for other compositions.

That is not acceptable to us.

With regards to discussing other classes, we took that into consideration and discuss broken game mechanics in the proposal. However:

1. The broken game mechanics for Barb mask the class's overall weakness. Without wall-charging, Barb would not yet have a clear higher than 130 (Zodiac WW).

2. Wall-charging likely will not be patched out or fixed as we believe it would required a significant overhaul to the way Furious Charge's skill interacts with objects and terrain.

3. We are not concerned with the performance of other classes. We took it into consideration, but whether other classes suffer from similar problems is beyond the scope of the proposal. We are focused on Barbs, period, and the data indicates, very plainly, that Barbs are weaker than other classes.

Regarding overhauling skills: Never gonna happen. Items, maybe. Skills? Not a chance.

07/09/2019 10:12 AMPosted by Tallaron
As it counts for the Zodiac-WW. But for this build there is a possibility to step in: The Rend-Bonus of the set. No! Rend should be used as a damage skill but why not as some kind of support skill? Affected enemies take x% more damage from WW. Problem solved.


Wrong. Loading all damage into Whirlwind will not fix any of the build's problems. That is, in fact, the current problem with the build, and why it is often the most frustrating and fishing-heavy build for Barbs. If Rend deals meaningful damage, provides additional utility for the build, and its items make gearing less frustrating and expensive, it's a win-win.

Folks need to stop resisting Rend. We have laid out how it can contribute in amazing ways to the build. We just need the List 2 changes to get it done.

As for your other comments, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Our ideas do indeed fix the class's problems, create new builds, offer more build diversity, and elevate all builds--not to the same level, of course, but certainly in ways that promote fun, engaging gameplay across a wide variety of game modes.

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