Barbarian Community Buff Proposal--UPDATES ARE LIVE!

General Discussion
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06/27/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Guilty
get in the game


You and me, guilty as charged!

I want this list of changes in the game too bruh!
06/27/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Guilty
Jesus, these are the worst changes. Barb's already push almost as high as the highest possible push, and they are on par with other classes, I.e. DH, WD, Monk, and you want to buff their base dmg bonuses even HIGHER?? Furthermore you want the farming we set to push as high as skill based builds? So happy none of this will get in the game


I'm not sure what leaderboards you've checked, but we have plenty of data that says otherwise. Here's an easy comparison.

Take a look at the non-Season leaderboards. Look at the top 10 clears for each class and come up with an average GR clear and average Paragon for that clear. I can save you some time:

Barb:
Avg: 127 5.6k

Crusader:
Avg: 130 6k

Demon Hunter
Avg: 130 6.7k

Monk:
Avg: 125 6.2k

Necro:
Avg: 132 6.4k

WD:
Avg: 129.5 6.2k

Wiz:
Avg: 135.5 7k

What do you notice?

If you examine them individually, you'll notice that 4 of 7 classes have average clears at 130 and above. WD is one tier below that, which isn't a large deviance, but Barbs and Monks are falling short of the mark by 3 and 5 tiers respectively. Of course Monks need buffs, but I'm not a Monk expert; I'm here to talk about Barbs.

So, you could assume that Barbs need to be moved up +3 tiers on all builds. That sounds reasonable--until you examine our top 2 clears: R6 HOTA and Vile Charge. Both builds rely on a gimmicky, some would argue broken game mechanic (wall-charging) in order to deal more damage than otherwise possible. Wall-charging is not unlike the old Twister Wiz where you had to stack twisters and could only deal damage in specific conditions. The respective buffs for both builds is, on the low end, +2 tiers gained from wall-charging. In actuality, it's much closer to 5 since the wall-charge allows players to maximize multiple damage multipliers.

That means we're hovering between +3 and +5. But that's not the whole story. If you take the average of all other classes, they're at GR 133. Every class except Barb and Crusader have cleared 133 or higher--some with multiple 133+ in their top 10. So this average of the 6 other classes top 10 isn't unrealistic for most classes--and for some classes, it's the low end of their top 10 potential.

This means that if you compare Barb's average top 10 clears to those, the gap is 7 GR tiers.

And to be honest, that's not insurmountable. It means we need 3x more damage plugged into all our builds--much more in the case of primary builds and such. But if you look at our proposal and use the numbers in either list, you would only need 3x more damage added to each build to close that +7 GR tier gap.

This isn't unrealistic. This isn't asking for the moon. This isn't even asking to be equal to Wizards or Necros. This is A) asking for basic fixes for intra-class problems, B) asking for buffs to achieve better intra-class build parity, and C) reminding the devs of this +7 GR tier gap.

If you're talking about Season leaderboards, well, don't bother--once S17 ends, that LON buff goes away, and all our LON builds take a major hit. We do address LON in our proposal, and we do try to buff it.

Furthermore, we aren't asking for farming sets to be on par with push sets, but that's a whole other can of worms. And you can find correct information if you read the entire proposal.

Finally, for doing your homework for you: You're welcome!
Do you think we can add a fist weapon for Babarian? Just for fun aesthetics?
Hey, great job as always! Still remembering the legendary 2.6.1 times when Barbs made a comeback.

Adding this link to Rapid Fire buff topic as there's hard to make clear conclusion of barbarian buff needs.
06/27/2019 11:29 PMPosted by Ruined
Hey, great job as always! Still remembering the legendary 2.6.1 times when Barbs made a comeback.

Adding this link to Rapid Fire buff topic as there's hard to make clear conclusion of barbarian buff needs.


Thank you for your support!
06/27/2019 10:43 PMPosted by Venatus
Do you think we can add a fist weapon for Babarian? Just for fun aesthetics?


Aesthetics should be the least of our concerns. It's best to focus on changes that will impact our gameplay and progression.
06/28/2019 11:14 AMPosted by DieHarder
Aesthetics should be the least of our concerns. It's best to focus on changes that will impact our gameplay and progression.


Well-said!

Right now, we should focus on fixing gameplay problems--broken sets and skills, the lack of useful supporting legendaries, and intra- and inter-class parity! Thank you for your continued support!
Just a heads up. We're currently working on an update to the proposal that will include some new information and address another core problem for the Barbarian class. We're hoping to have the website updated in the next few days and I'll definitely keep everyone informed.

Thanks to everyone who has supported this endeavor. And thanks to everyone who continues to support us with shares and upvotes. The more people know about this and talk about it, the more likely it is we'll get some decisive action.
Would it be possible to leave the old value and have the new value along its side so that the changes are easier to make out?
06/29/2019 11:27 AMPosted by DieHarder
Would it be possible to leave the old value and have the new value along its side so that the changes are easier to make out?
that might lead to more confusion on what the final proposal we are requesting is.

Free, Rage and everyone else, thanks for all your hard work!
Ok, just a thought.
DH, Insidious:

The current plan is for the updated numbers to appear, in a different color, alongside the old numbers. It should be pretty clear that it's new info, and we also wanted to make sure the old info was still accessible, so that people who had previously read the document could go back again and be clear on what had been changed (and why).
06/29/2019 02:24 PMPosted by Rage
DH, Insidious:

The current plan is for the updated numbers to appear, in a different color, alongside the old numbers. It should be pretty clear that it's new info, and we also wanted to make sure the old info was still accessible, so that people who had previously read the document could go back again and be clear on what had been changed (and why).


You could always use strikethrough on the old numbers, as they do, to denote changes, in addition to the color difference.
I'm especially interested in MotE build. I think your suggestions wouldn't solve this build's problem. The main problem's I think:
1. Damage is not enough. Well last the EQ damage was increased to 20k%. I hardly think that some hundred % would benefit sensible difference.
2. Very bad mobility.
3. Really bad single target potential. It is a pain in the !@# to kill the boss with this build.
4. Soso rift sensitive. Need much more trash in rifts...
5. Would be nice a constant WotB like in other builds to get more damage and cc immunity.
6. The necessary cdr is too much.

So I think need much more to rethink and solve with this build upon you mentioned.
06/29/2019 01:16 PMPosted by DieHarder
Ok, just a thought.

No worries or sounds like they have a good plan! Didn't mean to be negative about your idea, just wanted to point out the possible downside!
06/23/2019 09:18 PMPosted by Free
Hi folks.

While Season 17 brought awesome buffs to LON and some classes, Barbs were completely left out of the loop. Nevalistis acknowledged this and made a post about it:

04/26/2019 01:06 PMPosted by Nevalistis
To put it simply - we just couldn't get to Barb for this patch. We know there's areas to improve for Barb, and we want to do that right. We've got a working list of some of the more popular/most desired builds or changes you guys want to see and we're taking a look at options for the future.

No ETA on that, but we are looking at it. :)


But the Barb community here on the Bnet forums hasn't been sleeping on this. In fact, we've been hard at work on a MASSIVE, detailed, and carefully calculated buff proposal--and I'm here to unveil that to everyone:

http://barbarianbuffproposals.strikingly.com/


This site link is "not secured" meaning nasty stuff can happen and any information can be taken. Just to let you if you weren't aware of this.
Hi folks.

While we're at work on a big update to the proposal, I thought I'd address a few points.

06/29/2019 03:24 PMPosted by LadyPaka
1. Damage is not enough. Well last the EQ damage was increased to 20k%. I hardly think that some hundred % would benefit sensible difference.


If you read our proposal carefully, we're advocating for enough damage to push various MOTE-based builds into 130+ The buffs that focus on intra-class parity would push some of those builds into the 132+ range, and the buffs that focus on inter-class parity would propel EQ into 135+ territory. In other words, the smallest of our buffs will give every MOTE-based build several GRs worth of damage right from the start. It would also make Slam-based builds very strong and viable, and the same goes for our Avalanche build.

06/29/2019 03:24 PMPosted by LadyPaka
2. Very bad mobility.


Huh? Leap is one of the best mobility skills in the game.

06/29/2019 03:24 PMPosted by LadyPaka
3. Really bad single target potential. It is a pain in the !@# to kill the boss with this build.


That's always been a problem for MOTE builds, and we do address it via some of our buffs. In particular, our BK Wedding Band idea would be a huge benefit to MOTE builds due to the low uptime on Wrath. We also buff Boulder Toss to make it a worthwhile skill in various builds for excellent single-target damage.

However, keep in mind that MOTE builds are, by nature, AOE-based builds, and thus they will always suffer a bit at single-target damage.

06/29/2019 03:24 PMPosted by LadyPaka
4. Soso rift sensitive. Need much more trash in rifts...
5. Would be nice a constant WotB like in other builds to get more damage and cc immunity.


That's true for every AOE-focused build, but I disagree about perma-Wrath. We already have 3 other builds that have perma-Wrath. Does every build need it? Part of what makes MOTE unique is that you have to take into account CC effects and use your Leaps wisely.

06/29/2019 03:24 PMPosted by LadyPaka
6. The necessary cdr is too much.


Huh? At most, you need 2 CDR rolls on gear. Many players get away with just one roll. This build barely requires any additional CDR beyond a diamond in helm and Paragon, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Anyway, stay tuned for more updates to the proposal!

06/29/2019 11:27 AMPosted by DieHarder
Would it be possible to leave the old value and have the new value along its side so that the changes are easier to make out?


As Rage pointed out, this is pretty much what we're going to do! It takes a LOT of work to write the new material, collate the data, and amend the site, so stay tuned for updates.

06/29/2019 08:21 PMPosted by Wise
This site link is "not secured" meaning nasty stuff can happen and any information can be taken. Just to let you if you weren't aware of this.


We're aware, but this is a community effort done on a shoe string budget, and for the moment, we don't have our own domain to use for security or encryption. That may change in the near future.
06/29/2019 02:24 PMPosted by Rage
DH, Insidious:

The current plan is for the updated numbers to appear, in a different color, alongside the old numbers. It should be pretty clear that it's new info, and we also wanted to make sure the old info was still accessible, so that people who had previously read the document could go back again and be clear on what had been changed (and why).


Sound good.

06/29/2019 04:25 PMPosted by insidious
06/29/2019 01:16 PMPosted by DieHarder
Ok, just a thought.

No worries or sounds like they have a good plan! Didn't mean to be negative about your idea, just wanted to point out the possible downside!


It's all good bro.

06/30/2019 10:57 AMPosted by Free
Hi folks. While we're at work on a big update to the proposal, I thought I'd address a few points.


Your dedication is appreciated.
Currently in the final stages of proofing and editing the updated information.

Updates will include/address:
    + Intra- and inter-class parity
    + Regional and global leaderboard analysis
    + Why Barbs are considerably weaker than other classes and how to fix it
    + Diverse group play options for Barbs, including 5 potential DPS options from speeds to end-game


The master doc went from 23 pages to 38, and we're hoping to whittle a few more pages out before adding the material to the web site. Hoping to have the website fully updated in the next few days.
Free, Rage,

Have you considered asking Diablofans for hosting your proposal's doc / webpage?

Now that they have returned maybe it would add extra visibility and support, while removing the inconvenience of the http(s) issue.

Looking forward to the update!!
All the best.

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