Barbarian Community Buff Proposal--UPDATES ARE LIVE!

General Discussion
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Well you are wrong because you don't caunt the circumstances. Look on the LB. How much Leapquake clear you see in the first 100? Very few. So you can't say that this build is viable for 127 with around 6k paragon. Because there is only one man who can do it! This build is just far behind of other builds. Not enough the damage buff you calculated.
In spite of leaping the mobility is no good because you can skip bad maps really hard with leapquaking...

The cdr is tolerable since EQ procs gogok... but There should be no need to have any cdr stat on gear. With this low damage it is a waste. If there will be better damage this cdr is viable with gogok.

Well, yes maybe this build don't need perma wotb. I agree this is unique in this way.

This build is the most fishing one in the game I think. So aoe builds need rethink: give some bonus damage to single target to compensate the miss of AD. For example: when eq damages only one target its damage is increased by x%.
I really hope barb gets at least some changes next season, barb has always been my fav class
06/30/2019 03:57 PMPosted by LadyPaka
Well you are wrong because you don't caunt the circumstances. Look on the LB. How much Leapquake clear you see in the first 100? Very few. So you can't say that this build is viable for 127 with around 6k paragon. Because there is only one man who can do it! This build is just far behind of other builds.


I beg to differ. Shamue cleared 127 with Fire EQ. Arch just cleared 128. Rage, my co-author on the project, just cleared 123 with about 2500 Paragon. Anyway, my point is that our proposed buffs elevate Fire into the guaranteed 130+ range, and for some very dedicated players, even higher. And our upcoming update looks at the state of Barb vs other classes (spoiler: it's not good) and proposes what it would take for our builds to close that gap--or at least get much, much closer to most other classes.

I guess what I'm saying is that the first published part of our proposal is all about intra-class parity and fixing broken items and skills. The next is going to directly address why we're so weak compared to other classes and what should be done about it. You should stay tuned for updates.

06/30/2019 03:57 PMPosted by LadyPaka
The cdr is tolerable since EQ procs gogok... but There should be no need to have any cdr stat on gear. With this low damage it is a waste. If there will be better damage this cdr is viable with gogok.


But you're not really taking CDR over DPS stats. The best two places to get it would be on your shoulders (Str/CDR/All RES/AD) and a ring (CHC/CHD/CDR). And that's if you want two--which you don't need depending on whether or not you use Gogok. At most you're giving up one AD rolls, and if you get quad-fecta gloves, you don't even have to give up that!

06/30/2019 03:57 PMPosted by LadyPaka
This build is the most fishing one in the game I think. So aoe builds need rethink: give some bonus damage to single target to compensate the miss of AD. For example: when eq damages only one target its damage is increased by x%.


Zodiac WW is much, much worse in terms of fishing. So is Vile Charge.

But to your second point, read our proposal carefully. We actually do offer ways to help EQ against single-target by evening out its DPS output when Wrath is on cooldown. And that's to say nothing of the other potential build options we open up.

06/30/2019 03:20 PMPosted by SapodoDiabo
Free, Rage,

Have you considered asking Diablofans for hosting your proposal's doc / webpage?


Yes. Currently talking to one of the admins, but haven't received a firm answer. Right now, Diablofans is a solid "maybe."

I'd like to think they'd be ready and willing to help out this community effort, but they've been reluctant in the past to provide much in the way of support for this sort of thing. :\

I'll keep you updated.

06/30/2019 04:08 PMPosted by Damo
I really hope barb gets at least some changes next season, barb has always been my fav class


Agreed! Thanks for your support!
I love the idea of changes to the outdated legendaries and balancing barbarian builds to be close to each other while competitive with other classes in terms of clears. But the proposed changes seems to not address any of the problems such builds and legendaries currently have. I can name a few here:

Might of the Earth:
Girdle of Giants bonus increased from +250% to +400%
Fury of the Vanished Peak bonus increased from +500% to +600%

The change to GoG (+43% damage) will move Fire and Physical Leapquake +2 GRs. The change to FotVP (+16% damage) will move Physical Leapquake an additional +1 GR.


Sorry but this is not the problem with leap quake. The set lacks real builtin damage reduction and therefor has to sacrifice COE for band of might otherwise has a very hard time living in high GRs and requires extreme fishing to be just sub optimal. Also the sesmic slam build problem lies with the supporting "Bracers of Destruction" that has a limit of 5 enemies unlike its counter part bracers of the first men for HOTA. Therefor a buff to FotVP is unnecessary.

Another one would be this:
Frenzy Thorns:
Bastion's Revered bonus increased from 10 stacks to 20

This change (which adds about +60% damage), in addition to a major buff of the Tough as Nails passive, will move Frenzy Thorns approximately +14 GRs, to around GR 120, at high paragon.


If anyone can clear a GR 122 with this buff alone I'll reward them with a $1000 bounty. Generator builds across all classes lack damage because both the generator themselves and supporting legendaries are weak. Frenzy for instance has a base weapon damage of 220% where something like meteor starts with 740% weapon damage and frozen orb is around 950% weapon damage and corpse lance with a whoping 1750%. Furthermore supporting legendaries for generator builds in general is depth diggers (outside of a single supporting legendaries for every class ie: oathkeepr for barbs, Fragment of destiny for wizards or hunter's wrath for DH etc.) and it is extremely weak compare to other legendaries for top builds with way bigger multipliers.

I can explain every single build and their problems but I am not sure if anyone is even going to bother reading it.

TLDR: Wall of text
All in all, it is very interesting to see whether next patch is just small patch like 2.6.5 was or relatively greater patch, such as 2.6.1 were.

Good times. For a year it seemed 2.6.1 would be the final patch.
Well, I think the seasonal table is viable to make decent comparison to see where MotE build stands. Lot of barb pushes with it because it was the free set during the season. There yoj can see that with augmented gear the avarage reachable clear is around 115!!! I agree with Achilles: this build leaks tons of damage and some hundred % on some stuffs like GoG won't solve this problem. Yeah, the COE makes difference. But witout BoM it is just impossible to stay alve.

On shoulders you can get 20% AD and 15% EQ if no cdr on it. And yeag you can use quadfecta gloves but it is really hard to find a decent one. I'm upon 3.500 para and till don't have any.... in spite I played a lot with barb so I had tons dropped of this item....
07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
Sorry but this is not the problem with leap quake. The set lacks real builtin damage reduction

Actually, Achilles, MOTE(4) is the strongest defensive buff, by far, of any Barb set. Hell, it's probably one of the strongest, for any class. It gives about 72% mitigation, all by itself.
07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
If anyone can clear a GR 122 with this buff alone I'll reward them with a $1000 bounty. Generator builds across all classes lack damage because both the generator themselves and supporting legendaries are weak. Frenzy for instance has a base weapon damage of 220%

You do realize the damage% of Frenzy has nothing to do with how much damage Frenzy Thorns deals, right? It deals thorns damage, and just uses the high attack speed of Frenzy to deliver it. Frenzy could do 1% weapon damage per hit, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

07/01/2019 02:47 AMPosted by LadyPaka
this build leaks tons of damage and some hundred % on some stuffs like GoG won't solve this problem.

LP, you don't seem to understand how multipliers work. If you increased the damage on Girdle of Giants from 250% to 600%, this would be exactly the same as increasing the MOTE (6) bonus from 20,000% to 40,000%

The two of you seem to have a poor understanding of the game's mechanics, and you also didn't seem to read the proposal very carefully. Come back when you've remedied both those problems, and maybe I'll take you seriously.
07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
Sorry but this is not the problem with leap quake. The set lacks real builtin damage reduction and therefor has to sacrifice COE for band of might otherwise has a very hard time living in high GRs and requires extreme fishing


This could be the most clueless statement I've ever read on these forums. Thanks for the laughs bud.
What I understand is my experience.... Are you a developer of the game who exactly know how the miltipliers work? Is there any offical thread where Blizzard explains the multipliers of MotE build? How do you know it that your multiplier conclusion is right?
07/01/2019 04:38 AMPosted by Foamy7
07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
Sorry but this is not the problem with leap quake. The set lacks real builtin damage reduction and therefor has to sacrifice COE for band of might otherwise has a very hard time living in high GRs and requires extreme fishing


This could be the most clueless statement I've ever read on these forums. Thanks for the laughs bud.


The peaple who think MotE build has quite good surviveability maybe never played this build.
Yes, maybe vile charge and Reakor HOTA more fragile and need more para to survive but if you want to leap with CoE (instead of BoM) that is absolutely not viable on higher GR's. Just try it. And his statement was about going without BoM for reasonable damage increase....

With BoM yes this build has good surviveabililty.
Archael just cleared 128 without either BoM or Esoteric. Just APDs for defense.

Lots of players have had great clears running CoE. Do your homework!
And this is why I don't usually post on forums.

Actually, Achilles, MOTE(4) is the strongest defensive buff, by far, of any Barb set. Hell, it's probably one of the strongest, for any class. It gives about 72% mitigation, all by itself.


375% armor for a strength class is not 72% mitigation ... it is not even 40%. It is like having Akarat's on a crusader class without the 50% damage reduction of Akkhan's set.

You do realize the damage% of Frenzy has nothing to do with how much damage Frenzy Thorns deals, right? It deals thorns damage, and just uses the high attack speed of Frenzy to deliver it. Frenzy could do 1% weapon damage per hit, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.


Generator builds are not restricted to thorns builds yet all my statements stands. The fact that i have to explain these over an outcry kills any motivation to participate in these discussions.
07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
f anyone can clear a GR 122 with this buff alone I'll reward them with a $1000 bounty. Generator builds across all classes lack damage because both the generator themselves and supporting legendaries are weak.


Hi Achilles. Thanks for your feedback.

I see your point, but it also seems like you're cherry picking individual bits of the proposal and separating them from their larger context. For example, if the only buffs to Frenzy were on Bastion's, you would be right. But the larger context is that we're advocating for buffs to Oathkeeper, Undisputed Champion, and other skills that and items that would combine for a powerful generator build.

07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
Might of the Earth:
Girdle of Giants bonus increased from +250% to +400%
Fury of the Vanished Peak bonus increased from +500% to +600%

The change to GoG (+43% damage) will move Fire and Physical Leapquake +2 GRs. The change to FotVP (+16% damage) will move Physical Leapquake an additional +1 GR.

Sorry but this is not the problem with leap quake. The set lacks real builtin damage reduction and therefor has to sacrifice COE for band of might otherwise has a very hard time living in high GRs and requires extreme fishing to be just sub optimal. Also the sesmic slam build problem lies with the supporting "Bracers of Destruction" that has a limit of 5 enemies unlike its counter part bracers of the first men for HOTA. Therefor a buff to FotVP is unnecessary.


Both buffs are in fact necessary, but maybe a better way to put it is that this is one of several possible ways to correctly buff the build. Anyway, to respond more directly to your point, MOTE's damage reduction is, as Rage has pointed out, very, very strong--easily the best of any Barbarian set--due to the way it scales with main stat. Iron Impact gives you +150% armor, so as your main stat increases via Paragon and Augments, so too does your Armor, and so too does the bonus granted by Iron Impact. The damage bonuses we plug into the items above are enough to move the build up the indicated number of tiers, but bear in mind that this is at the high end of the power potential--the true end-game pushes. Of course, it will also make lower GR pushes easier thanks to the increased multipliers.

The use of Band of Might is no longer controversial and--again, context--we suggest an item that can directly compete with FnR or CoE: BK Wedding Band. If implemented, our BK Wedding Band would allow you to take Band of Might, BKWB, and CoE.

Finally, you brought up Slam, and that's a tricky one to balance. The thing about Slam is that it's current multipliers are on par with HOTA and it's a much better AOE skill. The only thing that prevents it from kicking HOTA out of HOTA builds is A) its Fury consumption, and B) the enemy cap.

You can get around the Fury issue by using Permafrost (such as in the Pro-Slam build), and if the bracers had no enemy limit, you would be dealing insane damage all the time with practically no Fury issues. At that point, Slam might replace HOTA in IK builds, and potentially unseat HOTA in some R6 builds. That isn't something we want to happen.

Instead, we want to keep the distinct identities of builds and make them better at doing what they do best. So, we start by elevating all Slam-based builds with the two buffs above. Then we address individual build concerns through additional items.

Hope this clarifies our proposal a bit.
Wow, Achilles, you really don’t understand mitigation.

Do you think that each point of STR increases your armor by some % or something? Because it seems like that’s what you’re suggesting.

That’s not how it works. Each point of STR just gives you 1 armor. MOTE 4 then increases this by a rather large percentage.

If you want to see for yourself, just go into the game, equip at least 4 pieces of MOTE, and look at your DR from armor. Then Leap, and check your DR from armor. If you had 90% mitigation from armor before, you’ll have about 97%, post-leap.

That’s a 70+% reduction of damage.
07/01/2019 05:03 AMPosted by LadyPaka
The peaple who think MotE build has quite good surviveability maybe never played this build.
Yes, maybe vile charge and Reakor HOTA more fragile and need more para to survive but if you want to leap with CoE (instead of BoM) that is absolutely not viable on higher GR's. Just try it. And his statement was about going without BoM for reasonable damage increase....

With BoM yes this build has good surviveabililty.


Ok, I'll unpack it.

07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
therefor has to sacrifice COE for band of might


It is not a 1 for 1 trade of Band of Might for CoE; you are trading your capped Bracers of Destruction DPS for the higher burst DPS of CoE in density while simultaneously trading your Band of Might for the variable DR of APD. Given the higher potential DR of APD in density, you also swap out your 3rd gem (typically Esoteric or Powerful) for the higher situational DPS of Zei's.

If you drop BoM without putting in a substitute, you are going to die in even a mid-tier GR. The statement you referenced was a flat out misreading of the situation. You can only drop BoM IF you use APD. And even that is potentially too squishy to live, it takes a lot of paragon, skill, and balls to make it work. Arch cleared a 128 with it, a world #1 MotE clear, so it is viable. If you are Archael.

This also requires a playstyle change from tanking density and affixes to leaping in twice to stun mobs and leaping to safety on the 3rd leap to ramp up your Zei's damage. It is a demanding yet rewarding playstyle that can make you extremely squishy out of density, yet grants much more DPS and potentially greater defense in density, which are the times you really need more of both.

07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
The set lacks real builtin damage reduction


MotE uses 2 defensive buffs for DR. The MotE 4 piece bonus and either BoM or APD, possibly Esoteric if you feel squishy, but it's always been an option and not a requirement. Name me a class set in the entire game that uses fewer defensive buffs than that, ie, just the class set and literally nothing else.

The real problem with MotE is the lack of consistent sustain. The optimal healing strategy for this build is to use the Life per Fury Spent of your fury dump, Seismic Slam, to generate healing. My seasonal MotE barb has 184 fury generating about 4000 health on every cast of Seismic Slam, and that is essentially it. It generates 736k health every few seconds when I slam, and really nothing in between. High GR's can inflict way more than that amount in damage in just a few seconds regardless of how high your DR and health pool are. MotE actually needs a consistent healing source throughout a rift, not just a quick burst and then nothing.

07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
otherwise has a very hard time living in high GRs and requires extreme fishing


This is the wall every build in the game eventually hits. For some it's in the 130's, for some it's in the 120's, and it's almost always because of limitations of the gear or player.

07/01/2019 05:03 AMPosted by LadyPaka
The peaple who think MotE build has quite good surviveability maybe never played this build.


I've finished an era in the top 60 on the Barb LB with MotE in the past and I agree it does lacks survivability but it is not because of lack of mitigation, as in damage reduction. It lacks consistent single target DPS and it lacks sustain, both issues are addressed, I believe, in the proposal.
Foamy, let's talk in the talking place, the place where we talk about serious MOTE.
06/24/2019 05:23 AMPosted by TrvAix
You do realize that Monk didn't get any buffs either. Don't you?
Part of the complaint is Barb doesn't benefit from LoN buffs this season where Monk has 2 really good LoN builds that benefit from the LoN buff greatly.
07/01/2019 12:06 AMPosted by Achilles
I love the idea of changes to the outdated legendaries and balancing barbarian builds to be close to each other while competitive with other classes in terms of clears. But the proposed changes seems to not address any of the problems such builds and legendaries currently have. I can name a few here


The fact is that we don't always see eye-to-eye on everything, but your support is welcomed.
Just want to say - this hasn't gone unnoticed. As you know, I can't make any promises. But I can make sure the appropriate eyes take a look, and I've made sure that's the case. :)

Thanks for all the hard work you do for the Barbarian community, Free (as well as to everyone else who contributed). It's greatly appreciated!
Thx for the response.

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