Barb Buff Proposal for 2.6.6--UPDATES LIVE!

Barbarian
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Great job on the updates! I would love to play a barb like this!
Shameless copy paste from main GD thread

@Free and Rage
All this doc is nothing short than a Brilliant effort and a work of Excellency when it comes to feedback. If this doesn't qualify as proper feedback, I don't know what else does.

Onto your suggestions, please allow a remark of the Sword and Board passive.
I know from where it comes from, and probably why you included it in the list, but as suggested it is not appealing in any scenario I can envision.

However, there might be a niche where the passive and a Shield can be useful given its specific circumstances, no dual wielding and no attack speed.

1. Vile Charge
[dmg through utility]
Whereas Vile Ward increases dmg % through speed, a legendary Shield could improve mitigation by cdr and increase dmg % by resource cost reduction. Or vice versa.

2. MotE
[fury dumps]
The above mentioned shield, benefit Mote builds due to necessary cdr, benefits Slam builds due to rcr ... and maybe ... make Bash an option between leaps.

Another option for 1. and 2. for the same builds, but on a different mechanic, a legendary Shield that temporarily increases dmg based on fury generated / gained.
Arreat Law, MotE set with Earthen passive, Fury of the Ancients, Charge skill would interact nicely with it.
Great work,
I have linked the post times in the German-speaking forum. Many faithful barbarians hope for a reanimation of the class outside of a supporting role.

I apologize for the bad English
07/07/2019 06:08 AMPosted by XMortiferX
Great work,
I have linked the post times in the German-speaking forum. Many faithful barbarians hope for a reanimation of the class outside of a supporting role.

I apologize for the bad English

Thanks for reposting! Your English is excellent!
07/07/2019 06:08 AMPosted by XMortiferX
Great work,
I have linked the post times in the German-speaking forum. Many faithful barbarians hope for a reanimation of the class outside of a supporting role.

I apologize for the bad English


Thanks so much! We appreciate the support!
Icy Veins has covered the proposal!

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/44230-fan-suggested-barbarian-buffrework/
Free. While i appreciate all the effort put into this, I do have a lot of concerns.

"So, in order to get used in high GR pushes, we need a legendary that buffs Rend's damage further. The 1H Mighty Weapon Ambo’s Pride, which currently lacks a special ability, should acquire the affix: “Rend deals 40-50% increased damage for every Rended enemy within 25 yards. Maximum 20 enemies” (80-100% for cross-class parity)."


Everything you have for the proposal #2 for WW not only make the build much harder to play, make the game-play more clunky, and just are overall bad concepts, by focusing on other abilites instead of just one singular ability. (Never have "increases damage for every enemy" for affix's)

The set is Whirlwind, not rend. Not to mention we need to worry about server issues since WW causes a horrendous amount of lag.

I would recommend a rework to dust devils to no longer create tornadoes and instead increase WW damage (or be removed all together) to prevent lag due to 25+ attacks a second with 20% chance for AOE & bloodshed, and yes this would mean that the set %damage numbers would need to fluctuate due to this, but that's what PTR is for. Hell, i would even agree to doubling the WW damage to 680% and have it strike half as many times, this would help tremendously.

re-add the Mortick’s Brace bracers to the game


Lamentation new legendary affix: “Gain 8-10% damage reduction for every enemy affected by Rend within 25 yards."


War of the Dead new legendary affix: “Rend no longer costs Fury.


What is the point of this? I see no point to forcing more players to pick specific legendaries, this is not fun game-play when you are forced to use item A because it increases all damage by 900%. There should be only skull grasp (if even) and the rest should be set based. The only legendary affix's that i agree with are for LON no others (This is just for additional variance).

Skull Grasp bonus increased from +400% to +600%

To achieve cross-class parity, Skull Grasp bonus increased from 300-400% to 1000-1300%.


Why 1000% - 1300%? At least keep the same range as the previous version of the item, do 1200% - 1300%. You want to make it even more difficult to run this without cubing it? 90% of the players will cube it anyways, only near perfect rolls or primals will be worth while to use, but we all know that end game we would cube the obsidian ring since it cant roll crit damage, crit chance, & Strength.

Wrath of the Wastes (4) mitigation increased from 50% to 60%

These two changes provide enough damage (+40%) to move the build forward +2 GRs, and survive a little more easily outside density


I agree, but it should get at least PTR testing, in my personal opinion it should be 75-80% at least so solo players are not doomed at higher G-rifts (Testing would be needed). I did a 98 solo with the build at 900 paragon, but I required using furious charge with the wedding band to stay alive because it does not have enough base durability. A normal Archon wizard has over 25000x (2.5M%) (no exaggeration, do the math) toughness at the same tier, same paragon.

Blade of the Tribes should have its additive damage bonus to Earthquake increased from +150-200% to +200-300%. In addition, this item should acquire an additional Primary slot, that gives a +200-300% bonus to Avalanche damage (400-500%, to both EQ and AV, for cross class parity).


Basically only primal, nothing else will go. This would make getting a decently rolled blade of the tribes IMPOSSIBLE (Again, stop focusing on secondary set abilites, the bulk of the damage is earthquake, THAT IS FINE there is no need to change that). You not only need a decent roll on the EQ damage, as a ancient weapon. That's hard enough (trust me it took me long enough to get one on my own build), now i need it for avalanche too? ill pass, this change comes, and there is no way i am playing leap anymore, it will be far too hard just to get a decent version of this, its not worth the effort.

In conclusion my overall issues with your ideas are.

1. You focus way to hard on making the secondary damage abilities buffed to make them equal to the main ability of the set. This is not a good idea, we should at least focus on making all the base sets equal (after removing bugs), then focus on making builds create less lag (WW) to help with the servers, THEN worry about the secondary abilities.

2. You focus on adding affix's to legendaries and adding more of them, this not only makes gearing for builds harder, but forces people to only have one viable item that we can use, this is not fun game play (No variance).

3. You focus way too much on the math, let the PTR testing be the deciding factor for that (There are far too many factors). We have no idea how much a single change could break the system (I mean, look at the stash tabs, or the Chantodo changes), we need to TEST before we say "this should be 400%".
It's a shame to see all this hard work and dedication put into this proposal and not even get a simple response or acknowledgement from the community manager....Nevalitis thats you bud.
07/07/2019 06:46 PMPosted by vampt
It's a shame to see all this hard work and dedication put into this proposal and not even get a simple response or acknowledgement from the community manager....Nevalitis thats you bud.
she actually did respond to the thread in the general forum.
Lazy, I normally try to be pretty tactful in my responses, but earlier I saw this:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20772177025#post-18

I'm not sure why you decided to respond to Rage, my co-author, like that, but it was not warranted. Rage isn't just one of the most knowledgeable Barbs around--he's also one of the best players as can be seen from his solo-only MOTE clears. Why you felt it was okay to mouth off at him like that is beyond me, but it's far from acceptable. So, here are my responses to your feedback:

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
Everything you have for the proposal #2 for WW not only make the build much harder to play, make the game-play more clunky, and just are overall bad concepts, by focusing on other abilites instead of just one singular ability. (Never have "increases damage for every enemy" for affix's)


There's a lot to unpack here, but in short our proposals do the following:

    1. Make gearing Zodiac WW easier since you'll never need fussy secondary rolls (Freeze on belt)

    2. Make playing the build much easier since our buffs to Rend allow you to deal much more damage to elites and RGs, and offer more mitigation


Nothing in our proposal makes the build more "clunky." In fact, it's the opposite: our List 2 ideas would allow us to drop IP and Cassius and worry far less about Zodiac procs.

Finally, the Wastes set has never been about a singular ability. It has always been about Whirlwind and Rend, only Rend has been effectively broken by terrible supporting legendaries. In fact, since Whirlwind is a channeling skill and limited by dealing its damage over ticks, it works much better when supporting by another strong DPS skill.

As for our proposed affix, it's called a scaling mechanic, and it works exceptionally well to support channeling and DOT skills due to the nature of their base mechanics. But it's starting to look like you don't quite understand how the game works, so...

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
The set is Whirlwind, not rend. Not to mention we need to worry about server issues since WW causes a horrendous amount of lag.


Wrong, see above. And WW doesn't cause the lag--Bloodshed is the culprit. They long ago fixed server issues due to WW, but they haven't fixed it with Bloodshed. Nothing in our build makes that worse--in fact, since we'll kill big groups of mobs faster, we'll have less lag to worry about.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
I would recommend a rework to dust devils to no longer create tornadoes and instead increase WW damage (or be removed all together) to prevent lag due to 25+ attacks a second with 20% chance for AOE & bloodshed, and yes this would mean that the set %damage numbers would need to fluctuate due to this, but that's what PTR is for. Hell, i would even agree to doubling the WW damage to 680% and have it strike half as many times, this would help tremendously.


This is a horrible idea and not at all realistic. It's going to be an uphill battle just to get proper supporting legendaries, so what makes you think the devs would overhaul skills?

Your idea would nerf WW into the ground. Dust Devils are a HUGE component of our damage output. You don't really understand how the build deals damage. And you don't seem to understand that loading all the build's damage into Whirlwind is what makes it frustrating and underwhelming to begin with.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
What is the point of this? I see no point to forcing more players to pick specific legendaries,


That's how every set and build in the game works. Supporting legendaries buff specific skills or provide conditional modifiers and utility. Our ideas aren't just there to look pretty--they would provide meaningful buffs to every build, period.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
There should be only skull grasp (if even) and the rest should be set based.


What game are you playing? I don't even know where to begin with this crap. Good supporting legendaries = strong, versatile builds, including potential LON options. End of story.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
Why 1000% - 1300%? At least keep the same range as the previous version of the item, do 1200% - 1300%.


This is very telling. You don't seem to understand the underlying design philosophies of D3. See, ranges on items are calculated as follows: Take the maximum numerical bonus and subtract 25%. That's the range, with very few exceptions where it would result in a very weird number. For example, if Skull Grasp was buffed to 1300%: 1300-25% = 975%. But since that's a weird #, we round up (like they do with Girdle of Giants) to 1000%.

The developers could opt to make the buffs to supporting legendaries smaller and redistribute the remainder onto set bonuses, but it's not always that easy. For example, if you did that with Standoff, you're buffing everything the IK set touches, and the same goes for anything the Raekor set uses.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
in my personal opinion


Here's the thing: I don't care about your opinion. You're making stuff up as you go. You don't have data or evidence, you don't have any clue about how our builds actually work, and you don't understand the game design principles at work. Your ideas are bad because they're unsound, purposeless, and would only make our builds weaker and more reliant on fishing.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
I did a 98 solo with the build at 900 paragon, but I required using furious charge with the wedding band to stay alive because it does not have enough base durability.


You don't really understand how to play the build, either. Parthans + Freeze + Rage Flip = problem solved.

Don't like that gimmicky setup?

That's okay. We provide sound alternatives and solutions in our proposal via Rend, Lamentation, and Mortick's Brace. Best of all, with Ambo's in the Cube, Rend would deal some very significant damage.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
1. You focus way to hard on making the secondary damage abilities buffed to make them equal to the main ability of the set. This is not a good idea, we should at least focus on making all the base sets equal


Wrong. Priority #1 is to fix supporting legendaries. Our sets are plenty strong.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
2. You focus on adding affix's to legendaries and adding more of them, this not only makes gearing for builds harder, but forces people to only have one viable item that we can use, this is not fun game play (No variance).


This is 100% wrong. See above.

See also the amount of build diversity our ideas would generate. I'm getting the feeling that you skimmed the proposal, but didn't actually read it.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
3. You focus way too much on the math, let the PTR testing be the deciding factor for that (There are far too many factors). We have no idea how much a single change could break the system (I mean, look at the stash tabs, or the Chantodo changes), we need to TEST before we say "this should be 400%".


We know for a fact how much a single change breaks things because we know exactly how our builds and skills work--how they deal damage, how they recover, and how they condense mitigation. We know for a fact how what the numbers of the buffs should be, because we've run the math over and over and over and over, and because we have years of experience playing these builds, pushing, discussing, testing, optimizing, and re-testing. I don't think you have any of that, and your comments indicate that you have even less understanding of the game, its mechanics, our builds, and game design as it applies to D3.

So I'm going to dismiss your feedback for the incoherent mess that it is, particularly after the way you replied to my co-author (see above). I'd prefer you exit the thread and cease responding. I don't have time to teach you every nuance of the game when you behave like a child and treat reputable and respected community members like trash.

See yourself to the door and don't come back.

07/07/2019 06:46 PMPosted by vampt
It's a shame to see all this hard work and dedication put into this proposal and not even get a simple response or acknowledgement from the community manager....Nevalitis thats you bud.


Hi vampt!

Nevalistis did indeed respond here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20772247025?page=8#post-159

Before that, Bluddshed confirmed in a YT video that he had sent the devs the link to our proposal. Since then, Filthy Casual made a video about it, Icy Veins wrote a blog post about it, and Diablofans has one in the works about out updates.

The D3 devs are DEFINITELY aware of our work. For now, all we can do is hope they take it seriously!
Free, I agree with your post overall but should point out that when they changed Bloodshed to only proc around your character it stopped the Bloodshed lag. Dust Devils + Pain Enchancer Bleed + Area Damage is culprit for WW lag now.

If they remove Dust Devils WW will stop lagging. Dust Devils give the Barb a large coverage of damage but are the problem because they spread PE + AD calculations to the whole screen.
07/08/2019 06:06 AMPosted by Archæl
Free, I agree with your post overall but should point out that when they changed Bloodshed to only proc around your character it stopped the Bloodshed lag. Dust Devils + Pain Enchancer Bleed + Area Damage is culprit for WW lag now.

If they remove Dust Devils WW will stop lagging. Dust Devils give the Barb a large coverage of damage but are the problem because they spread PE + AD calculations to the whole screen.


Thanks for the correction. Got caught up dunking on a rude fool.

Can't get rid of DD, though--would nerf WW damage into the ground. D3 servers were never meant to handle these kinds of loads. Poor babies are chugging along soon as density gets thick and we start on the pause trick.


Finally, the Wastes set has never been about a singular ability.


Name the last time rend has been used on the set. Oh wait, never mind.

But it's starting to look like you don't quite understand how the game works, so...


No i don't care that i'm harsh, too be honest I've been pushed far beyond the point of caring, years ago, while my actions are not warranted, too me it doesn't matter. If that means you ignore this post, or anything I say, go ahead, but i'm gonna say it anyways regardless of it you want me to or not.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
I would recommend a rework to dust devils to no longer create tornadoes and instead increase WW damage (or be removed all together) to prevent lag due to 25+ attacks a second with 20% chance for AOE & bloodshed, and yes this would mean that the set %damage numbers would need to fluctuate due to this, but that's what PTR is for. Hell, i would even agree to doubling the WW damage to 680% and have it strike half as many times, this would help tremendously.


This is a horrible idea and not at all realistic. It's going to be an uphill battle just to get proper supporting legendaries, so what makes you think the devs would overhaul skills?


The concept is to stop using supporting legendaries to prevent forcing players to pick specific items to deal (X) more damage. No one wants to have to be forced to play this instead of another item because it gives a tremendous damage boost, again the only exception as i stated would be LON. While the ability changes are less likely but it would reduce server based lag for the set which is why it is warranted.

and yes this would mean that the set %damage numbers would need to fluctuate due to this


Your idea would nerf WW into the ground. Dust Devils are a HUGE component of our damage output. You don't really understand how the build deals damage. And you don't seem to understand that loading all the build's damage into Whirlwind is what makes it frustrating and underwhelming to begin with.


and yes this would mean that the set %damage numbers would need to fluctuate due to this


07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
What is the point of this? I see no point to forcing more players to pick specific legendaries,


That's how every set and build in the game works. Supporting legendaries buff specific skills or provide conditional modifiers and utility. Our ideas aren't just there to look pretty--they would provide meaningful buffs to every build, period.


And why should there not be a outlier? If its fun, and balanced who cares what else matters about the build? Again thats what the PTR is for, if it is overbuffed they can nerf it before it goes live, or vice versa. And i would agree that they should provide meaningful buffs, but that is a lesser concern over balancing & gameplay.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
There should be only skull grasp (if even) and the rest should be set based.


What game are you playing? I don't even know where to begin with this crap. Good supporting legendaries = strong, versatile builds, including potential LON options. End of story.


Good supporting legendaries = no fun. No variance with builds = less fun. Again i'm not disagreeing with you on LON, as i said its the only exception. You just like ending the story, acting as if your high and mighty, grats internet person, news flash I don't care.

07/07/2019 04:06 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
Why 1000% - 1300%? At least keep the same range as the previous version of the item, do 1200% - 1300%.


This is very telling. You don't seem to understand the underlying design philosophies of D3. See, ranges on items are calculated as follows: Take the maximum numerical bonus and subtract 25%. That's the range, with very few exceptions where it would result in a very weird number. For example, if Skull Grasp was buffed to 1300%: 1300-25% = 975%. But since that's a weird #, we round up (like they do with Girdle of Giants) to 1000%.


25%, you know what i say? Who cares? Make it something that makes sense, nothing has to be the same, why else would we be arguing this? You shouldn't want to make items be even harder to roll or even less people will try to play it.

Again can't be a outlier? The only exception I would make is if the game breaks trying it (Obviously). You don't have to follow the original logic of the game except for the basic standards like strength increases damage by 1% per strength exc. Any items, or sets can change for the most part freely, excluding new effects/affix's.

You don't really understand how to play the build, either. Parthans + Freeze + Rage Flip = problem solved.

Don't like that gimmicky setup?


Its not that i don't understand it, its that i'm not going to spend a horrendous amount of time trying to get the correct rolls for it, not fun doing that, nor am i going to, as you say, play a gimmicky setup, just using WW is the point of the set, and is the fun aspect of the build.

If our sets are plenty strong, then where are the WW sets in the leader boards, first person is at rank 37, after that i stopped searching at 100 for a second one (unless i missed one). By buffing other items its the same thing as buffing the set, just forcing us to use another item with the set, there is no point to this at this point in the game.
Your idea would nerf WW into the ground. Dust Devils are a HUGE component of our damage output. You don't really understand how the build deals damage. And you don't seem to understand that loading all the build's damage into Whirlwind is what makes it frustrating and underwhelming to begin with.


One change I would love to see is to just make Dust Devils an effect of WW itself without restricting it to a rune. The Dust Devil rune could be replaced with something that either provides a slight boost to speed (say 15%-25%) or something relatively minor. Then, the Wastes 6-pc bonus could be the Blood Funnel rune.

So a traditional Wastes WW set could select any rune they want (maybe someone would actually pick Volcanic Eruption) but would most likely select the movement speed rune since in GRs speed is king. Non-traditional builds would then have options. For non-mighty weapons you could pick Wind Shear and not need to run gimmicks for fury generation. You could actually run a Hurricane build and not have to sacrifice Bloodshed for Swords to Ploughshares since you'll have Blood Funnel for healing.

For LoN WW you would get Dust Devils and be able to select the Blood Funnel rune for healing. Even for WW zBarbs Dust Devils would be nice to draw agro from things at a distance. Making Dust Devils a default feature would open up quite a bit of variety for Wastes and LoN WW alike because the skill is essentially garbage without it.
The concept is to stop using supporting legendaries to prevent forcing players to pick specific items to deal (X) more damage. No one wants to have to be forced to play this instead of another item because it gives a tremendous damage boost,


Two problems here:

    1. That's how the game works. Pick any major build from any class. You realize that supporting legendaries + sets = builds, right? That is the fundamental design principle behind how non-LON builds work, and even LON builds require specific items to function in specific ways for intended outcomes. You may not like that, but that's how this game operates.

    Pop Quiz: To optimize her build, an Impale DH should equip:

    A) Dawn
    B) Sunkeeper
    C) Danetta's Spite
    D) Karlei's Point

    There's only one right answer. I could ask the same question about the quiver and belt slot, ring slots, bracer. We could repeat that across every major build for every class and with very few exceptions, you're going to get markedly similar results. You keep saying stuff like this:

    Good supporting legendaries = no fun. No variance with builds = less fun.


    And that doesn't make sense! What game are you playing?

    What's more, you don't seem to understand that good, strong supporting legendaries can in fact = build diversity. Look carefully at what we did with Dread Iron, Fjord Cutter, and Saffron Wrap. Look at how our Rend items can also be used for a 4x Rend build with the Wastes set.

    Did you even read the proposal or did you skim it to troll?

    2. Items don't just boost damage. Many of the most powerful items boost utility.


Why do I have to explain how the game works to someone who has logged so many hours?

07/08/2019 04:12 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
25%, you know what i say? Who cares?


What you just said = "Sound game design? I don't care, do whatever you want."

That's not how game design works. Not in a structured system where variables interact with other variables.

07/08/2019 04:12 PMPosted by LazyTurtle
If our sets are plenty strong, then where are the WW sets in the leader boards,


I addressed this in the previous post. Because WW loads all of its damage into one skill (WW), it has to fish very, very, very hard for ultra-specific maps+mobs that can be killed with this one specific skill in one specific way. It's an incredibly frustrating and time-consuming build to play. It's also resource intensive since you'll burn hundreds of keys via fishing. For most people, it's not fun. For most people, it's not rewarding, when no other Barb set has to fish as hard and spend so much time perfecting gear.

That is what happens when you front-load all your damage into a channeling skill that divides its damage over ticks and relies on AOE damage.

That is why the build needs Rend to deal meaningful damage--which is can happen with our List 2 Rend items.

Conversation over, dude. If you want to troll, kindly take it elsewhere.

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