Barbarian Damage Potential Analysis

Barbarian
I'm writing this as an addendum to our discussion about the realistic damage capabilities of Barbarians both solo and in groups, which can be found here:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20772297025?page=1

The purpose of this analysis is to explain why although Barbs have the lowest average GR clears on all servers, the actual problem is much worse than the numbers show due to mechanics issues.

NORTH AMERICA:

Top 10 Barb NA Highest GR 131 Lowest 123 Average 127
Top 10 Crusader NA Highest GR 132 Lowest 128 Average 130
Top 10 DH NA Highest 133 Lowest 127 Average 130
Top 10 Monk NA Highest 127 Lowest 123 Average 125
Top 10 Necro NA Highest 138 Lowest 127 Average 132
Top 10 WD NA Highest 133 Lowest 126 Average 129.5
Top 10 Wiz NA Highest 139 Lowest 132 Average 135.5

NA Barb Breakdown:

131 Raekor HOTA 6700
130 Raekor HOTA 6800
126 Raekor HOTA 5800
126 Earthquake 8000
125 Raekor HOTA 4500
124 Raekor HOTA 3600
123 Vile Charge 3900
123 IK HOTA 5200
123 Raekor HOTA 6500
123 Vile Charge 4900

EUROPE:

Top 10 Barb EU Highest GR 131 Lowest 126 Average 128.5
Top 10 Crusader EU Highest 134 Lowest 130 Average 132
Top 10 DH EU Highest 133 Lowest 129 Average 131
Top 10 Monk EU Highest 133 Lowest 126 Average 129
Top 10 Necromancer EU Highest 138 Lowest 132 Average 135
Top 10 WD Highest 135 Lowest 130 Average 132.5
Top 10 Wizard Highest 141 Lowest 137 Average 139

EU Solo Barb Breakdown:

131 Vile Charge 8525
128 Raekor HOTA 7200
128 Raekor HOTA 5500
128 Raekor HOTA 4100
128 IK HOTA 7700
127 EQ 5800
127 Vile Charge 7000
127 Raekor HOTA 5900
127 Raekor HOTA 5600
126 Vile Charge 7000

ASIA:

Top 10 Barb Asia Highest GR 128 Lowest 125 Average 126.5
Top 10 Crusader Asia Highest GR 133 Lowest 127 Average 130
Top 10 DH Asia Highest 132 Lowest 128 Average 130
Top 10 Monk Asia Highest 132 Lowest 124 Average 128
Top 10 Necro Asia Highest 137 Lowest 127 Average 132
Top 10 WD Asia Highest 131 Lowest 127 Average 129
Top 10 Wiz Asia Highest 141 Lowest 136 Average 138.5

Asia Solo Barb Breakdown:

128 Raekor HOTA 128 7900
128 Raekor HOTA 128 3500
127 Vile Charge 6100
127 Raekor HOTA 5700
127 Raekor HOTA 5100
126 Raekor HOTA 3400
126 Raekor HOTA 4200
126 Earthquake 5700
125 Raekor HOTA 6000
125 Raekor HOTA 6200

CONCLUSIONS:

In all servers, Barb is the worst performing class. The only exception to this is NA Monk but this is explained by a lack of interest since the other servers have higher Monk averages than Barb.

Raekor HOTA makes up the vast majority of Solo Barb clears and has the highest damage potential and single target damage, which explains the abundance of clears. This damage potential is amplified by a game bug where the player is able to charge against a wall and produce stacks faster than normal.

This can be seen here with Minininja's 123 Seasonal clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0kLLQiD3BU

Without this bug, Barbs would not be able to create Raekor stacks at such a fast rate and would be able to deal less damage as a result.

In all servers, Barbs have the lowest average GR clears when you take into account top 10 and the largest drop off in GR levels among the Top 10. This trend continues into the top 100 and top 1000.

Barb is not doing well despite the Raekor wall charge bug boosting the average Barb GR clears. This mechanics issue is inflating the Barb class numbers and drawing attention away from the fact that its other sets are clearing less often.

So basically if you don’t enjoy banging your character against the wall the average Barbarian GR clear you can expect is much, much lower compared to other classes.
Thanks Arch, that's very helpful. Currently processing...
06/27/2019 11:12 AMPosted by Rage
Thanks Arch, that's very helpful. Currently processing...


You’re welcome! Hopefully this sends a strong message about the actual state of Barb in both solo and group.

They should not be hiding behind the numbers being put up by wall banging mechanics.

Barbarian has been relegated to Zdps for years and years now. There’s no reason why Barbs can’t atleast have the damage to kill an RG here and there or clear trash in speed tiers.

No one has ever asked for Barb to be top DPS in anything nor is that anyone’s goal. But the current state of the class is pitiful.
I have to second Archael's point here, and I think an even more devastating indictment of the state of Barbarian can be found on the Seasonal LB for S17 post Vyr-Chantodo. I'm on both leaderboards, so I can speak to the relative difficulty of the achievement with hands on practical knowledge of the builds. Despite my filthy casual attitude. We've got a bit more than a month, I think, worth of LB clear data to review at this point, which should be enough to make my point.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Minininja or anyone else that has truly pushed the Barb leaderboard this season; if you've pushed as hard and as fast as you can, you deserve your spot and all the personal satisfaction that comes with it. What I'm speaking to is the fact that playing as a Barb in the seasonal (let's face it; the more popular) environment is simply unrewarding and no fun at all.

Wizards are far and away the top dog in D3 as it stands. Starpact and Vyr-Chantodo are both extremely powerful and rewarding to play, it's just the way the state of the game is right now.

The top Barbarian spot is a 123 clear in 14:29, and the bottom clear is a 100 in 14:32. The top Wizard spot is a 134 clear in 13:03 (Starpact) and #2 is a 133 in 13:57 (Vyr-Chantodo). The #1000 clear is a 119 in 14:59.

To date, 6 Barb players have cleared a 119 this season. The #7 ranked player is a 118 in 13:56 by a P3592 player with no augments i.e. someone that zBarbs enough to have gotten some stellar drops and hasn't bothered to augment yet. Just for clarity's sake: The #7 Barbarian clear to date would not place on the Wizard leaderboard.

My wizard currently ranks #168 at P1379 with approximately enough augments for an effective paragon just below 2800. More concerning is that my wizard clear is a 124 in 14:20 - a full GR above Minininja's fully augmented P2996 clear, effective around 4200 with augments.

It took me weeks of pushing, running bounties for reforges, and rifts for keys to get the gear and augments to hit the LB for wizard. Given that I'm a relative noob at wiz, I'm satisfied with my efforts and probably won't be pushing higher this season.

On Barb? I messed around with a zBarb enough to get some relatively decent gear, slapped on my 122 gems, and with a non-ancient weapon placed somewhere in the 600's with a breezy no-effort GR 100 clear somewhere right around 10 minutes. (since got a crappy primal Tribes and cleared 102 just because)

There is simply no comparison here. I would argue that VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE TRYING with Barb. I look at the leaderboard I see a few very dedicated and skilled Barbs, some tryhards, and a bunch of regular zBarbs that did a solo GR just for kicks.

I love the work that Free, Rage, et al did on the proposal. My only hiccup with it is that you are proposing that we balance our class to a 131/132 clear at Paragon level 7000 by a dedicated player with a unicorn rift, when your otherwise identical Wizard can clear at least 3 GR higher than that with half the paragon, and 139 with approximately the same paragon (see Non-Seasonal NA #1 Wiz 139 clear at 7000 paragon).

In my estimation, you should be looking to balance, with the same recommended changes (I really do like the ideas, just not the numbers) around AT LEAST 5 GR higher than the current proposal, because as it stands it will simply embrace the mediocrity and ensure that Barb remains as unrewarding and lackluster as it is today.
Y U no like Headbangers?
The top Barbarian spot is a 123 clear in 14:29, and the bottom clear is a 100 in 14:32. The top Wizard spot is a 134 clear in 13:03 (Starpact) and #2 is a 133 in 13:57 (Vyr-Chantodo). The #1000 clear is a 119 in 14:59.

To date, 6 Barb players have cleared a 119 this season. The #7 ranked player is a 118 in 13:56 by a P3592 player with no augments i.e. someone that zBarbs enough to have gotten some stellar drops and hasn't bothered to augment yet. Just for clarity's sake: The #7 Barbarian clear to date would not place on the Wizard leaderboard.


lol
06/27/2019 04:38 PMPosted by Archael
The top Barbarian spot is a 123 clear in 14:29, and the bottom clear is a 100 in 14:32. The top Wizard spot is a 134 clear in 13:03 (Starpact) and #2 is a 133 in 13:57 (Vyr-Chantodo). The #1000 clear is a 119 in 14:59.

To date, 6 Barb players have cleared a 119 this season. The #7 ranked player is a 118 in 13:56 by a P3592 player with no augments i.e. someone that zBarbs enough to have gotten some stellar drops and hasn't bothered to augment yet. Just for clarity's sake: The #7 Barbarian clear to date would not place on the Wizard leaderboard.


lol


That little nugget blew my mind when I looked at it this morning; there are a variety of factors including the fact that most top players are pushing wiz, even targeting 5 gr higher clears, adding in the increased competition on the seasonal lb in my mind would push that top clear maybe 2 more gr at this point, to a 129 or 130. In the ballpark, but still slightly behind overall.

Edit: I am in no way suggesting we use seasonal clear data to balance barb clears, just that the data itself suggests that barb is so god awful this season that the lb is empty of any real motivation to push.
06/27/2019 04:53 PMPosted by Foamy7
just that the data itself suggests that barb is so god awful this season that the lb is empty of any real motivation to push.


Would agree.

Would also caution us from chasing the Wizard as a goal post.

I don't think the current power potential of Wizard's was fully intended. In fact, I think it caught Blizzard off-guard post-PTR, or perhaps they overlooked certain things during the testing. Regardless, trying to get Barbs on an even level with Wizards seems a noble if absurd goal.
06/27/2019 03:58 PMPosted by Foamy7
In my estimation, you should be looking to balance, with the same recommended changes (I really do like the ideas, just not the numbers) around AT LEAST 5 GR higher than the current proposal, because as it stands it will simply embrace the mediocrity and ensure that Barb remains as unrewarding and lackluster as it is today.


Hey Foamy, I think we're currently looking at advocating a net +7 GRs buff (which would be 3x damage) to all Barb builds, and note that this is on top of the buffs Free and I proposed in Lists 1 and 2 to increase inter-set parity. So MOTE, for instance, would be at +9-10 GRs total.

I should point out to everybody that if mechanical changes don't happen, the amount of fishing one has to do with Barb sets isn't going to change. Yes, the average clears will be a lot higher, but for those folks who really want to push it to the limit with MOTE or WW, you're still going to have to open and close a ton of rifts, because the relative mechanics of the builds will still be the same.

So, for instance, the new top WW clear might be 137 or 138 (by some very dedicated player), but the average would still be 10-12 GRs below that. That "spread" is basically an unsolvable problem without mechanical changes. Just throwing that out there.
06/27/2019 05:06 PMPosted by Free
06/27/2019 04:53 PMPosted by Foamy7
just that the data itself suggests that barb is so god awful this season that the lb is empty of any real motivation to push.


Would agree.

Would also caution us from chasing the Wizard as a goal post.

I don't think the current power potential of Wizard's was fully intended. In fact, I think it caught Blizzard off-guard post-PTR, or perhaps they overlooked certain things during the testing. Regardless, trying to get Barbs on an even level with Wizards seems a noble if absurd goal.


I agree fully; I think the sweet spot is above that 131/132 clear but less than 139, which is why I settled on 5 more. The last thing I want is everyone dogging barb for having 2 gr spots in the meta. But we need drastic improvement just to make it to semi-competitive and rewarding.
06/27/2019 05:11 PMPosted by Rage
I should point out to everybody that if mechanical changes don't happen, the amount of fishing one has to do with Barb sets isn't going to change. Yes, the average clears will be a lot higher, but for those folks who really want to push it to the limit with MOTE or WW, you're still going to have to open and close a ton of rifts, because the relative mechanics of the builds will still be the same.


This is key.

I'd much rather have broken sets and items fixed than be able to clear GR 135+. Why? Because some of the changes we are proposing will alter how builds are played. They'll make new builds viable. They'll elevate previously terrible builds. More diversity. More parity. And ultimately, I think that's key. I don't want to fish with WW if Rend isn't fixed, because it's the same old, same old, only with a slightly larger number in the upper right corner of my screen.

To be clear, I very much want my cake and to eat it too. I want the +7, but I also want List 2. If we only get List 1 with bigger numbers, well, it's better than nothing. But it will NOT solve any of the problems within our class.

Getting a spot in off-meta groups is cool, but to my mind it's not as important as fixing problems within the class, even if that means we're relegated to lower average clears. We aren't really in competition with other classes.
06/27/2019 05:14 PMPosted by Free
We aren't really in competition with other classes.


This is the 100% wrong attitude to take. From your point of view it may be true; you play Barb almost exclusively and you honestly may not care where other classes place as far as GR cleared, time, and paragon.

But I'd argue the vast silent majority of the player base does, and the proof is in the Seasonal LB stats I quoted above. Competition begets excellence. Lack of competition begets mediocrity. Certain players play a single class only and barely even look at the others. But most bounce around from class to class looking for a new experience every season, and they gravitate towards the "top build".

A sizable portion of the players this Season are going for Wizard because it is so strong with Vyr Chantodo. It DOES NOT MATTER if it was intended or not; it's the new standard simply because it is the current state of the game, outlier or not.

I've played with every class and learned what I enjoy to play. I love Barb builds above any other class, but their potential is so low that they're gathering dust, and that's just criminal in my mind. I use DH for the sheer speed and mobility they offer in upper Torment rifts and bounties, and speed GR's. And right now I'm pushing a Wiz because it's powerful, fluid, and fun beyond anything I've ever played on D3 in 7 years.

There is simply no reason to roll a Barb right now unless you love the class or are pushed into zBarbie role in a group. There is nothing that a Barb can do that another class can't do better, faster, and with far less effort.

I've never come close to a 124 on Barb. I think my top clear was 106 or 108. And I honestly don't even want to play Barb this season, I've got a clannie with a Wiz that wanted to push and had a zMonk but no zBarb. Playing Barb right now is lackluster and boring as !@#$.

So there is no confusion about where I stand: I support both lists in your proposal 100% as far as the changes needed and the direction the class should go in, I honestly don't care if we get list 1 or list 2 as long as we get one of them (why not both said Zoidberg).

Get the proposal amended so that it advocates for +5, +7, +9, whatever, I don't care. But I think it was a big mistake to announce it to so much fanfare, both on the forums and off, to balance at a level way, way below what a Wiz can do.

Get more players on Barb, get more top clears on Barb, and it will push Rage, Archael, and all of our other great players above and beyond what even they think the build potential is.

These cautionary posts and dismissive attitude need to stop. Push for the stars and hope you get close to parity, because otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.

/end rant

PS - Much love to you and Rage. You guys worked your asses off and I have nothing but good things to say about everything you've both done for this class these past few years. Just clearing my head and speaking my mind.
Foamy7 is right on this. You are 100% in competition with other classes directly and indirectly.

You can't ignore the meta when other classes can DPS in groups and be more in-demand than Zbarbs (which is way less demanding on gear and stats since you aren't a damage class) find groups easier and can just DPS into the 150 range to get their gems to 150 and higher paragon than you.

Like it or not the meta affects everyone because groups offer higher benefits even for solo players. Barb's inability to participate in the meta with other roles has been gimping it for ages. Same as every other class who doesn't get to do much in the meta.

If you play Solo Barb exclusively and don't participate in the meta you're only gimping yourself. And playing ZBarb only won't cut it most of the time.

There's also the issue of why dedicate your life to pushing a meager GR Tier on Barb when you can annihilate your own Barb records with another class by 10 GR levels with garbage gear. Even for a 100% solo player it means higher gems and higher Xp to just ditch Barb.
Hey Fellas,

I just wanted to point out that at this juncture I think we have a pretty good consensus on what we're looking to achieve, so let's not fall down the rabbit hole of arguing about whatever personal philosophies are behind that consensus.

BTW, at this point my time is extremely limited. I've got a busy weekend ahead of me, then I'm out of the country, and afk, until August. So any replies you see from me are going to be brief out of necessity.
Yeah, I agree with that. At the end of the day what matters is that they listen and see the evidence.

Hopefully Blizzard will take a good look at what’s going on and make some simple but smart changes.

Every class in the game should have the option to play several roles in groups and progress. It’s criminal, like you said, how it is currently.
06/27/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Archael
So basically if you don’t enjoy banging your character against the wall the average Barbarian GR clear you can expect is much, much lower compared to other classes.


Seems like you guys enjoy banging your heads against the same subject wall.

2013 Barb nerfed
2014 Barb dps sucks, Make a list of fixes and buffs, post, get nothing
.
rinse repeat
.
.
.
2019 Hey bros Barb sucks! Really? Let's make a list!! lulululul

Hey it keeps the new kids entertained i'm sure.

Just glad you guys eventually accepted that Istvan's was better than the BK set and that it wasn't based on some conspiracy theory based on someone's personal agenda lululul. Hahah those days. Took us maybe a month to know it but felt like a life time to convince you few knuckle heads. Was like talking to Pinky and The Brain. lulllul
06/28/2019 02:59 PMPosted by KingBenjamin
Seems like you guys enjoy banging your heads against the same subject wall.


04/26/2019 01:06 PMPosted by Nevalistis
To put it simply - we just couldn't get to Barb for this patch. We know there's areas to improve for Barb, and we want to do that right. We've got a working list of some of the more popular/most desired builds or changes you guys want to see and we're taking a look at options for the future.

No ETA on that, but we are looking at it. :)


That's what started all of this.
06/28/2019 02:59 PMPosted by KingBenjamin
06/27/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Archael
So basically if you don’t enjoy banging your character against the wall the average Barbarian GR clear you can expect is much, much lower compared to other classes.


Seems like you guys enjoy banging your heads against the same subject wall.

2013 Barb nerfed
2014 Barb dps sucks, Make a list of fixes and buffs, post, get nothing
.
rinse repeat
.
.
.
2019 Hey bros Barb sucks! Really? Let's make a list!! lulululul

Hey it keeps the new kids entertained i'm sure.

Just glad you guys eventually accepted that Istvan's was better than the BK set and that it wasn't based on some conspiracy theory based on someone's personal agenda lululul. Hahah those days. Took us maybe a month to know it but felt like a life time to convince you few knuckle heads. Was like talking to Pinky and The Brain. lulllul


It's like Groundhog Day for sure, but hope never dies. Knuckleheads indeed.
06/28/2019 02:59 PMPosted by KingBenjamin

Just glad you guys eventually accepted that Istvan's was better than the BK set and that it wasn't based on some conspiracy theory based on someone's personal agenda lululul. Hahah those days. Took us maybe a month to know it but felt like a life time to convince you few knuckle heads. Was like talking to Pinky and The Brain. lulllul


Bul Kathos was always ahead numerically and mechanically in all iterations of WW and even more so now after its buffs. This is because the movement speed allowed it to gather density faster and make better use of Harpoon which because of Area Damage always translates into higher potential.

When people were pushing 102-103 with Istvan's swords Bul Kathos could always do the same or higher (and it did several Eras in a row when Wroboss was playing it and no one else).

People often blindly copy leaderboard stuff but that doesn't mean it's the best iteration. What spurred this topic is Blizzard's words on the matter and the fact that people here enjoy discussing the class.

06/28/2019 02:59 PMPosted by KingBenjamin
Seems like you guys enjoy banging your heads against the same subject wall.

Blue Post about Barbs
That's what started all of this.


Shrug. Sorry to see you're completely out of the loop with the game from 2013 to today.
06/28/2019 03:16 PMPosted by Roidraged
06/28/2019 02:59 PMPosted by KingBenjamin
Seems like you guys enjoy banging your heads against the same subject wall.


04/26/2019 01:06 PMPosted by Nevalistis
To put it simply - we just couldn't get to Barb for this patch. We know there's areas to improve for Barb, and we want to do that right. We've got a working list of some of the more popular/most desired builds or changes you guys want to see and we're taking a look at options for the future.

No ETA on that, but we are looking at it. :)


That's what started all of this.


And I'm sure you're still holding your breath...

04/26/2019 01:06 PMPosted by Nevalistis
No ETA on that, but we are looking at it. :)


Hope ya'll get something for your sanity sake. Just be patient, they are looking at it.

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