Vyr's CoE vs HoK

I know this got mentioned in one of the previous threads but I couldn't really find any conclusion, so I figured I would ask.

I know that all top Vyr players are using CoE and Energy Armor. Like most noob/low PP players, I've been running Halo of Karini and Storm Armor instead, which obviously limits my DPS. However, without the huge 80% dmg reduction from HoK, I wouldn't last a minute, especially between Archons and in low density maps where it's impossible to get too many Archon stacks. And yet, I see people face-tanking things with CoE and not die in situations where I'd be toast in a split second. Is there something obvious that I'm missing? Is there something wrong with my gear? Is it just that I don't have enough PP and am not very good at playing the build?


This is my toon btw. https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/Pja-11980/hero/96712337
More paragon and augments.

I made a post about this in the past, but the gist of it is that in GRs, enemy HP increases much faster than enemy damage. But when you add paragon/augments (even if it's all in int) you gain more toughness relative to your damage compared to the way GRs scale.

GRs add 17% enemy HP but only 2.3% incoming damage per GR level (incoming damage doubles every 30 GRs).

Just pulled a couple numbers in d3planner for an example setup:
at 18k int: 3.2 mil sheet dps, 26.2 mil sheet toughness
At 23k int: 4.1 mil sheet dps, 31.0 mil sheet toughness

Note that that difference is all due to int. I didn't allocate anything to vit.

That's 28% more damage and 18% more toughness with 5k more int. Okay, a little more DPS than toughness. Makes sense, we're adding int. But that doesn't tell the whole story. As you gain that 5k int, you'll probably push a few GRs higher. A 28% DPS gain is 1.6 GR levels worth of damage. But an 18% toughness gain is a whopping 7.2 GR levels worth of toughness.

As you gain paragon/augments, you end up gaining more toughness relative to your damage as compared to the way GR levels scale. It's a bit of a slippery concept, but I think it's a good explanation for what you are observing.

It basically ends up meaning that at low paragon, toughness can be more limiting. But at high paragon, you actually have more toughness relative to your DPS, and DPS becomes the much more significant limiting factor.

For Vyr's, it means you'll probably have more success with Karini at low paragon when you need the toughness more. At high paragon, you have higher toughness and it's all about DPS, so CoE starts to make more sense.

I'd recommend using Karini until you are fully augmented and maybe around 1200-1500+ paragon (YMMV). Once you get in range of 20k int (maybe a little more, maybe a little less), you'll probably want to think about swapping to CoE.
07/09/2019 05:59 AMPosted by Pja
especially between Archons and in low density maps where it's impossible to get too many Archon stacks.

The other big thing is playstyle and fishing. Yeah, with CoE you're probably going to get wrecked in low density maps vs. bad mob types. But people pushing with CoE are going to fish at least a few rifts to get a decent mob type on a decent map.

If you just want to walk in and one-and-done rifts, no fishing and want to be able to survive and clear everything, CoE probably isn't for you. You'll have more luck with Karini. Some mob types are basically unplayable with CoE.
[quote="207711877309"]Some mob types are basically unplayable with CoE.

Ghosts, Impalers and Lacuni stalkers. I just leave. I LOVE grotesque's, though.

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