Almost everything is determined by Paragon

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In this game, everything is determined by Paragon. And I am sure 99.99% of the top 20 rankers are xxx-bot users. Yes, there should be someone who may be not, but they must have given up a large portion of their real life to earn that unrealistic paragon.

You can easily calculate how Paragon massively affect the competition between players. For instance, if you compare Paragon 3000 and 6000, you deal 51% more damage and have 45% more toughness. GR monsters deal 2.338% more damage and have 17% more hp per level difficulties. This means Paragon 6000 "deal" the same damage to +2.63 level higher GR mobs, and "take" the same damage from +16.31 level higher GR mobs in comparison with Paragon 3000.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qY0hoR0sgxcwLHSfPayjPfDTzyxV_x6o/view

Is it a fair competition between 3000 (or less) and above 6000? Do rankers go to higher GR just because they have better skills? Definitely not. I think my grandmother can reach top 10 if she has above 7000 Paragon account. Therefore, don't mention any word like "professional" in this game. This word is only applicable to Starcraft 1-2, League of Legend "professionals" who earn monthly wages from their sponsor.

Add: Wizard top 30 non-seasonal North America

7225 7724 8841 7737 5947 8125 7550 6979 6853 4569 8280 6608 7258 5829 5677 4267 4956 5617 7836 4924 5807 5004 5570 8174 5344 6883 5560 7372 6872 6068

Average: 6515 (hope they are all legit ^^)
Min: 4267
Max: 8841

Are there any 2000-3000ish players here? If Paragon is not important, why all 2000-3000ish players cannot overcome it?
07/01/2019 09:39 PMPosted by Fangskin
Do rankers go to higher GR just because they have better skills? Definitely not.

The leaderboards do not confirm your assertion.
For example, EU, Solo Barbarian, Non-Seasonal, Softcore...
Rank 4 - GR128 - 14 minutes 31.699 seconds - Paragon 4181
Rank 5 - GR128 - 14 minutes 31.882 seconds - Paragon 7609

So, how do you explain someone getting a higher rank / faster time with 3428 fewer paragon if it's not skill?
07/01/2019 10:47 PMPosted by Meteorblade
07/01/2019 09:39 PMPosted by Fangskin
Do rankers go to higher GR just because they have better skills? Definitely not.

The leaderboards do not confirm your assertion.
For example, EU, Solo Barbarian, Non-Seasonal, Softcore...
Rank 4 - GR128 - 14 minutes 31.699 seconds - Paragon 4181
Rank 5 - GR128 - 14 minutes 31.882 seconds - Paragon 7609

So, how do you explain someone getting a higher rank / faster time with 3428 fewer paragon if it's not skill?
Extreme example cannot generalize the whole aspect. And I can imagine he made substantially more number of trials to overcome the 3428 Paragon gap (4181 vs. 7609). Moreover, +4000 Paragon still requires a lot of real-life time to achieve without using "xxx-bot", unless he has played this game since Season 5 or so.
Average player who has played since day 1 is around 6k. You can get 3k now in a matter of weeks.

07/01/2019 09:39 PMPosted by Fangskin
Is it a fair competition between 3000 (or less) and above 6000? Do rankers go to higher GR just because they have better skills? Definitely not. I think my grandmother can reach top 10 if she has above 7000 Paragon account.

I am sure she could do better than you to.

Stop using your lack of skill and jealousy as a means of justifying why you cannot get rank on leaderboard
07/01/2019 11:22 PMPosted by Fangskin
Extreme example cannot generalize the whole aspect. And I can imagine he made substantially more number of trials to overcome the 3428 Paragon gap (4181 vs. 7609). Moreover, +4000 Paragon still requires a lot of real-life time to achieve without using "xxx-bot", unless he has played this game since Season 5 or so.

Your claim was essentially that it's not possible for skill to overcome paragon / main stat advantages. My example, which I'm absolutely sure I could find hundreds more of, proves that it is indeed possible. Someone with a 17K main stat disadvantage ranking higher clearly demonstrates this.
Skill is barely a factor in this game, RNG of enemy spawns is what determines a player's push level.

But yes, massive paragon levels make a difference in completing certain levels. Tis why it should be capped at 1000 for seasons. It would make things interesting and more competitive since botting to paragon 8000+ is no longer possible secure your place in the leaderboards easily.
07/01/2019 11:52 PMPosted by Nigel
Average player who has played since day 1 is around 6k. You can get 3k now in a matter of weeks.

07/01/2019 09:39 PMPosted by Fangskin
Is it a fair competition between 3000 (or less) and above 6000? Do rankers go to higher GR just because they have better skills? Definitely not. I think my grandmother can reach top 10 if she has above 7000 Paragon account.

I am sure she could do better than you to.

Stop using your lack of skill and jealousy as a means of justifying why you cannot get rank on leaderboard
According to the profile, your character is really timid as hell. So, you have multiple accounts with 7K paragon, but cannot arrive top 10, right?

And 3k in a matter of weeks? Which xxx-bot are you using currently? Hey policeman, here is the criminal.
People are reaching gr140+ in 4man groups with only 2000 paragon, and you can get 2000 paragon very quick nowadays. stop to complain and play right.
...Tis why it should be capped at 1000 for seasons. It would make things interesting and more competitive since botting to paragon 8000+ is no longer possible secure your place in the leaderboards easily.
Sounds good but won't happen, I guess. The better way would be to get rid of botters, but that's too big a miracle, I wouldn't dare to hope for that.
The conclusion I've come to regarding paragon and the leader boards is the following:

  • Most people don't care about their ranks
  • If you try hard and play a bit, this includes fishing expeditions, top-100 is achievable for most players
  • If you demand a top-10 placement, forget about it. Paragon in that category is extremely important, a mandatory component of success
  • That's why it's disillusioning to players because everyone looks straight to the #1 ranked person and presumes it's due to their paragon level, and they're not wrong.
    07/02/2019 06:12 AMPosted by Ghostpos
  • If you demand a top-10 placement, forget about it. Paragon in that category is extremely important, a mandatory component of success

  • EU, Solo Barbarian, Season 17, Hardcore...
    Rank 1 - GR116 - 14 minutes 17 seconds - Paragon 1655
    Rank 2 - GR115 - 13 minutes 44 seconds - Paragon 1855
    Rank 3 - GR113 - 13 minutes 54 seconds - Paragon 2217
    Rank 4 - GR113 - 14 minutes 30 seconds - Paragon 2717
    Rank 5 - GR113 - 14 minutes 59 seconds - Paragon 1179
    If paragon is a mandatory component of success for getting into the top 10, how do you explain someone in the top five with just 1179 paragon? How do you explain that rank 1 has 1062 less paragon than rank 4?

    I realise this is likely to garner more down-votes because facts are harmful to this rhetoric of skill being unable to overcome paragon levels.
    Fishing seems to be more important than paragon.
    Those players are on top and have a ton of paragons because they risk their accounts being banned. That's at least 30 dollars plus all the GG gear. And they don't risk it just once; dedicated botters would keep coming back with new accounts time and time again. Some even use the same name!

    Would you be willing to risk your account and thirty bucks to be on top? No? Then forget about the Leaderboard. Everything comes with a price, my friend, and that is why paragons determine it, like you said.
    07/02/2019 06:22 AMPosted by Meteorblade
    07/02/2019 06:12 AMPosted by Ghostpos
  • If you demand a top-10 placement, forget about it. Paragon in that category is extremely important, a mandatory component of success

  • EU, Solo Barbarian, Season 17, Hardcore...
    Rank 1 - GR116 - 14 minutes 17 seconds - Paragon 1655
    Rank 2 - GR115 - 13 minutes 44 seconds - Paragon 1855
    Rank 3 - GR113 - 13 minutes 54 seconds - Paragon 2217
    Rank 4 - GR113 - 14 minutes 30 seconds - Paragon 2717
    Rank 5 - GR113 - 14 minutes 59 seconds - Paragon 1179
    If paragon is a mandatory component of success for getting into the top 10, how do you explain someone in the top five with just 1179 paragon? How do you explain that rank 1 has 1062 less paragon than rank 4?

    I realise this is likely to garner more down-votes because facts are harmful to this rhetoric of skill being unable to overcome paragon levels.
    First, my logic is that the competition is "not fair" when there is a huge Paragon disparity between players.

    Second, they (i.e., your example) are all seasonal character and the difference is only around 1000.

    Third, to overcome the difference, he must have put substantially more number of trials.

    Fourth, if "you" can achive top 20 in non-seasonal by using Paragon 1500 character, I will admit "your logic."
    07/02/2019 04:53 AMPosted by Digox
    People are reaching gr140+ in 4man groups with only 2000 paragon, and you can get 2000 paragon very quick nowadays. stop to complain and play right.
    "Only the user like you" can get 2000 paragon very quickly because you have been used "xxx-bot" to farm exp. Don't hide the sky with your two little hands.
    I largely agree. The best gear is much more easily attainable than ultra high paragon. Therefore, after a certain point, performance hinges first on paragon, and then on fishing plus skill. Not great gear luck or choices. This all in a loot game...
    07/02/2019 08:30 AMPosted by Fangskin
    07/02/2019 04:53 AMPosted by Digox
    People are reaching gr140+ in 4man groups with only 2000 paragon, and you can get 2000 paragon very quick nowadays. stop to complain and play right.
    "Only the user like you" can get 2000 paragon very quickly because you have been used "xxx-bot" to farm exp. Don't hide the sky with your two little hands.


    have you already done mage lon 4 man speeds?
    its insane exp/h you can get 2000 paragon like in 1 or 2 weeks playing 2hours a day, lol... people are doing gr105-110 in only 3 minutes, dont talk about what you don't know. if you want to level up fast just do 4man necro mage runs. stop wasting time playing solo, the truth is, if you want to get in the leaderboards you need to do 4man meta, it isnt only about paragon ,but how you will up your gems and caldensam to lvl 140+ if you play only solo?

    and the most of pushs is about lucky in the map, pylons, boss, monsters... you need to fish a lot, its sucks, because almost of the maps don't allow you to break records. with zbarb or zmonk i can done gr150 if i want. I am experiencied player in gr, but I don't have motivation to fish maps for hours to do this.

    some people who complain about paragon and blame that you dont need skill to do this i see playing very very wrong in 4man, dont know how to play well. in Diablo 3 if you play right you can play with your support class and enter a group with players who have more paragon to achiev your leaderboards if you want... if you dont want to spend to much time farming, so play with zmonk or zbarb, like me nowadays, lol... play right and you will find good clans and groups to enjoy in grs 135+
    07/02/2019 10:03 AMPosted by Digox
    have you already done mage lon 4 man speeds?
    its insane exp/h you can get 2000 paragon like in 1 or 2 weeks playing 2hours a day, lol... people are doing gr105-110 in only 3 minutes, dont talk about what you don't know. if you want to level up fast just do 4man necro mage runs. stop wasting time playing solo, the truth is, if you want to get in the leaderboards you need to do 4man meta, it isnt only about paragon ,but how you will up your gems and caldensam to lvl 140+ if you play only solo?
    Are you saying the Paragon monsters (+6000 non-seasonal, +3000 seasonal) make it purely by Rat/LoN mage run or +140 GR party? Please don't cover the sky with your little small hand. And it is quite funny that you cannot deny "your xxx-bot usage."
    If you really believe that paragon is the end all be all of the top spots on the leader boards. Then please tell me where those top spot players be if they had the following

    1. No augments
    2. level 25 legendary gems
    3. Missing a lot of needed affixes on gear, such as crit, cdr, etc...

    I highly doubt that your grandma would be able to be in the top spots with junk gear with a 7k+ paragon.

    Also depending on the build you might have a harder time getting the most out of it if you don't play the build properly.

    07/02/2019 06:44 AMPosted by DonMartin
    Fishing seems to be more important than paragon.


    I have no doubt that fishing is still important to top clears on the leader boards. I highly doubt that Blizz has totally eliminated the need for fishing.
    07/02/2019 10:58 AMPosted by Fangskin
    07/02/2019 10:03 AMPosted by Digox
    have you already done mage lon 4 man speeds?
    its insane exp/h you can get 2000 paragon like in 1 or 2 weeks playing 2hours a day, lol... people are doing gr105-110 in only 3 minutes, dont talk about what you don't know. if you want to level up fast just do 4man necro mage runs. stop wasting time playing solo, the truth is, if you want to get in the leaderboards you need to do 4man meta, it isnt only about paragon ,but how you will up your gems and caldensam to lvl 140+ if you play only solo?
    Are you saying the Paragon monsters (+6000 non-seasonal, +3000 seasonal) make it purely by Rat/LoN mage run or +140 GR party? Please don't cover the sky with your little small hand. And it is quite funny that you cannot deny "your xxx-bot usage."


    seriously? you cant get 2000 paragon in current OP buffs that blizzard made? give me break. if you tell me that before s8 maybe i would agree, but in s17 p2000 is so easy... man... people are doing gr 150 with less than 3000 paragon this season... what to complain about? you dont need 6k or 10k paragon to reach the max level in this game. The thing is you dont know how to play efficiently to get more exp/h and dont know to play 4man groups probably, in your profile i dont see any character for meta playing. and like i said, if you dont want to farm, just play with zmonk or zbarb, with only 1000 paragon you can push gr150 with your friends, if you know how to play.

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