Almost everything is determined by Paragon

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07/02/2019 10:58 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
If you really believe that paragon is the end all be all of the top spots on the leader boards. Then please tell me where those top spot players be if they had the following

1. No augments
2. level 25 legendary gems
3. Missing a lot of needed affixes on gear, such as crit, cdr, etc...

I highly doubt that your grandma would be able to be in the top spots with junk gear with a 7k+ paragon.
If you can achive top 20 in any class leaderboard with Paragon 1500 at non-seasonal, then everyone will accept your ground. Just upload the video first.
Are you saying the Paragon monsters (+6000 non-seasonal, +3000 seasonal) make it purely by Rat/LoN mage run or +140 GR party? And it is quite funny that you cannot deny "your xxx-bot usage." Please don't cover the sky with your little small hand.


Have you played anything else but solo. Because if you haven't then you really believe that the only amount of paragon achievable by any player is what you have achieved.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the only true way to tell a botter from non botter is not by paragon. Surprisingly it is by the amount of time played during seasons. If the total time played per class on that account during seasons is more than humanly possible then that is the indicator that the person is botting.

Just look at the profiles while in game and then look at season. Then hover over each class that they played. Total the hours played, then take the amount of hours that the season has lasted for. Divide the amount of hours that they have played by the amount of hours that the season has lasted for. If that result is a number that is higher than humanly possible for the given time period then you have found a botter.
While yes there are bot issues. Paragon, ESP 3000/4000 does not indicate a bot. Lets just give some EZ math.

Paragon 3000 requires exactly 388,100,992,980,000. Rat runs can easily get into the Trillions per hour. At 2T per hour, that only takes 190 hours to get to paragon 3000. That is a drop in the bucket. Really after a few weeks. Do note as well, nearly 10k main stat can come from Augments. Even using just 100 gems is still 6k+ main stat. This alone is a free 1300 paragon level gain in terms of stats.
Paragon isn't the end all be all for GR clearing.
seriously? you cant get 2000 paragon in current OP buffs that blizzard made? give me break. if you tell me that before s8 maybe i would agree, but in s17 p2000 is so easy... man... people are doing gr 150 with less than 3000 paragon this season... what to complain about? you dont know how to play efficiently to get more exp/h thats the reason.
The point in this discussion is "Paragon disparity in competing leaderboard". And distorted Paragon players are not legit. But you are still missing the point. And you are still attacking me on what isn't related to the topic here. And you still can't deny your usage of xxx-bot lol.

Regardless of whether one can achieve 2000 or not, you cannot compete with Paragon +6000 players with Paragon 1500 account. Obviously, Paragon +6000 accounts do not purely made from their own efforts. It is mainly done by xxx-bot. If it os purely made it by someone, he must have given up their real-life time.
07/02/2019 11:11 AMPosted by Fangskin
07/02/2019 10:58 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
If you really believe that paragon is the end all be all of the top spots on the leader boards. Then please tell me where those top spot players be if they had the following

1. No augments
2. level 25 legendary gems
3. Missing a lot of needed affixes on gear, such as crit, cdr, etc...

I highly doubt that your grandma would be able to be in the top spots with junk gear with a 7k+ paragon.
If you can achive top 20 in any class leaderboard with Paragon 1500 at non-seasonal, then everyone will accept your ground. Just upload the video first.


You were talking about paragon being the end all be all thing. Where if you had 7k+ paragon. You would be able to take my seasonal monk. Without any changes to his gear at all and do a GR120+ with the greatest of ease. Or better yet you would be able to do the same thing with only white gear. After all paragon is the end all be all of the top spots on the leader boards.

What I am saying is that while paragon is important. It won't trump getting good gear, augs, gem levels, fishing, etc... All of what it takes to be on the top spots of the leader boards.

I have no doubt that if you looked hard enough you would learn what it really takes to be number one on the leader boards. There is more to it than just paragon. Plus as others will tell you that playing on a team will net you a lot of paragon these days anyway.
07/02/2019 11:18 AMPosted by Dragonmaster
While yes there are bot issues. Paragon, ESP 3000/4000 does not indicate a bot. Lets just give some EZ math.

Paragon 3000 requires exactly 388,100,992,980,000. Rat runs can easily get into the Trillions per hour. At 2T per hour, that only takes 190 hours to get to paragon 3000. That is a drop in the bucket. Really after a few weeks. Do note as well, nearly 10k main stat can come from Augments. Even using just 100 gems is still 6k+ main stat. This alone is a free 1300 paragon level gain in terms of stats.
Paragon isn't the end all be all for GR clearing.
Lol, 190 hours requires 47.5 days if you play this game 4 hours "everyday". The season started at the 2nd week of May and it is approximately 45-50 days from the beginning. I highly doubt that seasonal +3000 Paragon are all legit users.
Uh, well a significant part of character power is determined by paragon, yes. But I wouldn't consider that "everything"? So, uh
Ok, let me explain again to you.
To get 2000 paragon you need 119T total exp
you can easily get aproximately 2t/h in lon mage runs gr105 speeds 3min

59,5 hours, 14 days only if you play 4 hours everyday average.

there are people in this game who spend 10 hours to get 1-70, and there are people who get 1-70 in just 1 hour. there are people who get 2000p in 1 or 2 weeks and there are people who get 2000p NS after 3 or more seasons.

if you dont play efficiently and have a nice group to play with you will never became the top.

3000 paragon isnt so hard to get, to clear a gr 150 you dont need more than that if you group know what they are doing, so, more than that dont change so much in this game.

lets suppose 6000 paragon is double power than 3000 paragon, even that doesnt make that much difference because 4-5GR levels mean 100% more HP. so paragon dont matter so much like you think.

actually you can done gr140+ with your NS paragon, but you dont have any meta class in your profile.

And I dont know the point of want to be in the ranking if you don't want to spend all your time in it, all rpgs are the same, always will have people who play everyday all day and they will always will get more than you. And, actually, paragon system in Diablo doesnt make so huge the difference between a mid-end player and top players (who spend more time in the game). in other games you will see a lot more difference in power, paragon system isnt so OP.
Fangskin lazy bum: Boo hoo, it's so unfair that some people have more paragons than me..
Paragon by itself does not give enough power to create a significant disparity in power.

But paragon represents time played with time played, you have better gear.

Etc.

Also does anyone know what the power different in regards to damage is relative to main stat? Does it become multiplicative?

2 damage x skill dam bonus x elemental bonus x elite bonus x gen bonus?

Thanks
07/02/2019 12:31 PMPosted by Phatty
Paragon by itself does not give enough power to create a significant disparity in power.

But paragon represents time played with time played, you have better gear.

Etc.

Also does anyone know what the power different in regards to damage is relative to main stat? Does it become multiplicative?

2 damage x skill dam bonus x elemental bonus x elite bonus x gen bonus?

Thanks


you can calculate this using d3planner website
it isn't all about paragon because RNG plays a massive part in it

example.. if a plvl 5000 has crap gear due to bad luck, i doubt that person could push as much as they wanted to. meanwhile, a plvl 1000 could have huge amounts of luck with the gear they find and so, push further than the higher plvl

and there are no pros in this game and there isn't any skill involved. anyone who says otherwise is a deluded little tool
07/02/2019 12:07 PMPosted by Digox
lets suppose 6000 paragon is double power than 3000 paragon, even that doesnt make that much difference because 4-5GR levels mean 100% more HP. so paragon dont matter so much like you think.
You can easily calculate how Paragon massively affect the competition between players. For instance, if you compare Paragon 3000 and 6000, you deal 51% more damage and have 45% more toughness. GR monsters deal 2.338% more damage and have 17% more hp per level difficulties. This means Paragon 6000 "deal" the same damage to +2.63 level higher GR mobs, and "take" the same damage from +16.31 level higher GR mobs in comparison with Paragon 3000.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qY0hoR0sgxcwLHSfPayjPfDTzyxV_x6o/view

If they receive the same damage from monsters in +16.31 lvl higher, they can gear more offensively (e.g., ignoring Unity (or so) and equipping CoE). For example, if you play Raiment 6 Gen monk, it is nearly impossible to survive in GR 120 with Paragon 2000 if you forfeit Unity or Lefebvre's soliloquy.

07/02/2019 12:31 PMPosted by Phatty
Also does anyone know what the power different in regards to damage is relative to main stat? Does it become multiplicative?
Because your main stats are multiplicatively applied to your final damage, the difference is huge.
OP your assertion that “everything is determined by paragon” is not correct. Rank is determined by a number of factors, of which paragon is one. Other factors are gear, fishing/luck, and skill. Players will have varying levels of each factor. Some lower paragon players may have great gear and excellent skill and experience playing a certain build, allowing them to rank competitively even with a paragon disadvantage.

The assertion that a high rank can be achieved by brute force of uber paragon, without any skill, is simply ludicrous. High leaderboard ranks obtained by high paragon accounts are also highly skilled players with loads of experience, deep knowledge of game mechanics, and a good amount of fishing.

The biggest flaw in the Diablo leaderboard competition is luck/rng which is a huge factor that is not controlled. It’s like having a race with all runners on completely different tracks with different obstacles.

Is it any surprise that the highest paragon players typically own the top spots? After all, not only do they have an inherent power/toughness advantage, they have also spent a lot of time perfecting their gear, practicing their build, and fishing a lot of keys for the right map/mob/pylon/rg.

It’s the same in any competition, not all athletes are created equal, some have unique physical gifts that may compensate for lack of training, and vice versa. Competitions try to control for as many factors as possible, for example officially sanctioned fields, equipment used, rules and officiating to prevent cheating, etc, in order to put the focus on skill and skill alone. There’s a lot of nuance here too, such as strong team chemistry, and individual strategies that can give a leg up.

Bottom line, there is not a way to objectively measure skill in a game like this without controlling all of the other factors. Go rank on a challenge rift if you want to measure pure skill against other players. Ideally challenge rifts would offer high tier meta clears but they don’t and it is what it is.
07/01/2019 10:47 PMPosted by Meteorblade
So, how do you explain someone getting a higher rank / faster time with 3428 fewer paragon if it's not skill?

The randomness when it comes to the Greater Rifts. Some Greater Rifts are easier than others, regardless of them being the same level.
@mcdundee there is no skill involved. anyone that can clear grift 1 in blues can clear grift w/e with the better rolled legs/sets..

only thing that's different is numbers. mobs deal more damage and have more hp but your char also has more toughness and deals more dps

what is not to get about that? absolutely no skill involved in d3
07/01/2019 09:39 PMPosted by Fangskin
And I am sure 99.99% of the top 20 rankers are xxx-bot users


^^ Another 'jelly' post about people that play the game better than OP.
07/02/2019 02:33 PMPosted by Crayon
@mcdundee there is no skill involved. anyone that can clear grift 1 in blues can clear grift w/e with the better rolled legs/sets..

only thing that's different is numbers. mobs deal more damage and have more hp but your char also has more toughness and deals more dps

what is not to get about that? absolutely no skill involved in d3


This just demonstrably false because playing the game isn't just about pressing one button and things melt. You have to manage cooldowns and such too and as such require gear for that. Sure, there's a lot of luck in this game, no arguing that but to argue that there is absolutely no skill involved is absurd on its face.
There are many factors as have been said before.

1.) Gear, if you have junk for gear the highest paragon in the world won't help fix that.
2.) Paragon plays a part.
3.) Playing your build efficiently. Here you have to learn to play your chosen build properly.
4.) Learn mob types, which ones are ones to avoid and which ones to fight.
5.) Learn whether you build is a trash killer or an elite and champion killer.
6.) Learn which map types are best to give you the best chances of clearing the higher GRs.
7.) Fishing is still a factor, no Blizz didn't eliminate the need to fish for the right GR, mob density, etc...

There may be other factors missing here but as you can see paragon only plays a part in being at the top.

In fact if you really want to be there and have just as much paragon as player B. Then you had better stop playing solo and start playing on teams. Get a decent meta build that can fulfill a role on a team. Then while teaming get your gems leveled and gear augmented for pushing spec. Then when you have your pushing spec gear leveled and augmented properly along with it being GG. Then you have to do some fishing if you want to clear a GR120+.

Playing on a team is the reason why players have asked the devs to make it where we can flag our characters as solo only. Then the solo leader boards would be only for those that have never played on a team during that season. Then you wouldn't have to compete with those that play on teams.
07/02/2019 02:33 PMPosted by Crayon
@mcdundee there is no skill involved. anyone that can clear grift 1 in blues can clear grift w/e with the better rolled legs/sets..

only thing that's different is numbers. mobs deal more damage and have more hp but your char also has more toughness and deals more dps

what is not to get about that? absolutely no skill involved in d3


At lower levels sure anyone can button mash and easily stomp the content. Im talking about min/max pushing where the monster health starts to outscale player power. Monster health is exponential while player power from main stat is linear. No attainable amount of paragon or gear is going to allow you to one-shot gr150 simply like gr1.

Buff/debuff management
Crowd control and resistance mechanics
Elite affixes
Pylon spawn strategies
Skill interactions
Gear optimization

There’s a lot of subtle nuance to all this and it only starts to matter at higher levels. Put a brand new player in a gr150 with 10k paragon on a build they’ve never played, they won’t beat it.

Honestly there’s really no point in us having this discussion when our underlying beliefs are so night and day. I’ll just respectfully disagree.

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