Almost everything is determined by Paragon

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@ShadowAegis
07/03/2019 02:42 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
I am talking about games that have things in them that you have to spend time and effort in order to get. Not things that you can just snap your fingers and have them in an instant.

This comparison is nonsensical. You're talking about games in which "there are things that take time and effort" as if Diablo 2 is not one of them.

In D2 there are plenty of things, that take time and effort you can learn:
-different builds;
-different farming routes depending on said builds and monsters immunities (some of which are too high level to be removed by Infinity);
-farming different items on different difficulties in order to exclude higher level items from the drop table, so that you maximize the chance of getting said item;
how to trade, values of items, etc;
-many more things, that I can't think at the top of my head right now...

The thing is, Diablo 2 already has those... and somehow the devs decided, that if a veteran player and a newer player know those things (maybe the newer player had a friend who gave him the knowledge, or he took the time and effort to read up a guide online), the lvl 90 player wont be weaker than the lvl 99 player given, that he managed to obtain the same gear.
The D2 devs didn't feel the need to make it all lame and grant double or triple damage to the player, that reached 99. Why do you think that is?

In a game like WoW, the devs didn't feel the need to grant double damage buff to players, that played for 5 or 10 years. (I'm excluding Legion and BfA artifact power grind, because these are not well received expansions with a patheticly low player base compared to TBC and WotLK where there were no lame things like that).
Fortunately ebola, the double damage doesn't account much except for a 5 grift differential.

The way things turn out with regards to power creep, sunk cost is deleted from the game routinely. It's why we are where are now.

The devs have traditionally moved casual up towards where upper end players are now - 1-3 seasons later.

mountain out of a molehill

There are two sides to this.

This is the side where you as a new player want to compete with the entrenched vets.

There's a side where the vets don't see how a new player should be able to directly compete with them.

There's no real right answer.

Personal opinion that everyone has differs.

I want people to be rewarded for playing more and putting more into the game (the bot issue is a different problem). I don't expect nor feel entitled to be in the same spot as someone who has 10,000 hours in the game if I have just put in 1,000 myself. That's just me. i'm a no free lunch kind of guy.
07/03/2019 01:48 PMPosted by Phatty
Please understand while the paragon is important and is more important than the gear differential, it still lies behind the RNG of the grift.

This is the most determining factor of all.

In order
Map layout - you will never see a top clear in a keeps, caves or corvus map
Mob types - Explain why a small pac of swarms gives you more progression than killing a 100 morlus?
RG - certain bosses are just plain aholes

As for the OP botting is an issue there is no denying it however as explained and proven by a number of posters it is not the determining factor of leaderboards.

FYI I know players doing 4 man meta runs netting 4 trillion plus xp per hour. Work that out for yourself in regards to paragons and time.

Build a ztoon. Run some 4 man runs and you will soon get an idea of how many levels you can achieve in a very short amount of time.
Yup, nigel.

I used to part of the leaderboard communities and players would routinely burn about 100 grifts key for 5 viable grifts, of which only 1 or 2 were contenders to push with.

The name of the game is grift fishing folks.

No matter what level you are, you won't be doing one with a bunch of wasps and succubi.
07/03/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Phatty
There are two sides to this.

This is the side where you as a new player want to compete with the entrenched vets.

There's a side where the vets don't see how a new player should be able to directly compete with them.

There's no real right answer.

In seasons right now you can clear the same content as NS players at the highest levels with 1/3 the paragons.

Blizzard has made it quite apparent they want players to be able to achieve in one season what "veteran players" have taken years to do. Like you Phatty Im not a fan of how this has evolved.

I guess it comes down to certain personality types who want instant gratification with no effort vs someone who places time and effort as a higher reward.

I would like to see just one challenge rift from a rank 1 clear of any class and let the players themselves determine who can clear it. Would be some interesting results. That way there would be no need for new players to grind for gear and paragons. You get it all in one go. (sarcasm)
I think paragon system also helps indicating whether someone may have botted. Most botters I'd say are probably botting to skip the daily grind of finding that perfect gear or leveling multiple gems rather than to gain massive paragon. But because you earn paragon points with xp, you end up with paragon points beyond what can be achieved as normal players on daily lifecycle.
07/03/2019 03:15 PMPosted by ElobaCarcen
You don't seem to know what a straw man is.

I am not strawmanning him. By what he said and the logic he exhibited, you can reasonably conclude, that to him a game in which a newer player can catch up to a veteran player in terms of strength is a broken game.


While in some games you can catch up character wise. But in overall knowledge and experience you won't catch up.

07/03/2019 03:15 PMPosted by ElobaCarcen
By his logic, Diablo 2 is a broken game, because I can level up to like 80 from going through the story, farm up to 90 while farming and trading for my gear within weeks, and be just as strong as someone level 99 who spent months grinding to 99.


But the vet has played more characters and may have more accounts (ladder games) than the new player. They will usually know the game better as well and have more experience at playing different builds.

07/03/2019 03:15 PMPosted by ElobaCarcen
By his logic World of WarCraft is a broken game, because I can reach max level, catch up on gear and outperform someone, who has been playing for 5 or 10 years longer.


Here you have to get your head out of the clouds. A player in WoW will not outperform a vet if they don't do some research. Each spec in WoW has a definite rotation that needs to be learned. Something that I don't think is part of the things that the game tells you. I highly doubt that WoW these days holds player's hands that much as to say here is your rotation and here is what you have to do for each boss in the game.

Let's say for a moment that it does. Then the player would at least have to read the documents on such things. If they fail to do so and go in blind they wouldn't be any better off.

Regardless of the game there will be things that those that have played longer than you will always have more of than you. It is just different from game to game. Some it is more max level characters with better gear. In games where you reroll characters to try different builds they would've went through more characters than you have went through.

Obviously that 10k hours to 200 hours was and extreme example of something important. Those that spend more time playing will have more than those that don't. While you might have some games where in time you can catch up to one single character. But that vet might be playing a different character and build.
07/03/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Phatty
I want people to be rewarded for playing more and putting more into the game (the bot issue is a different problem). I don't expect nor feel entitled to be in the same spot as someone who has 10,000 hours in the game if I have just put in 1,000 myself. That's just me. i'm a no free lunch kind of guy.


I am sure that you along with others are the type of people that knows that there are games where you might be able to catch up to a vet that is playing a character like D2. But that vet has rolled more characters than you. That vet has amassed more knowledge of the game than you. That vet may have had more accounts than you (online version). This is what the other person misses. There is so much more to a vet than just merely catching up to them with one single character.

07/03/2019 07:52 PMPosted by MOE
I think paragon system also helps indicating whether someone may have botted. Most botters I'd say are probably botting to skip the daily grind of finding that perfect gear or leveling multiple gems rather than to gain massive paragon. But because you earn paragon points with xp, you end up with paragon points beyond what can be achieved as normal players on daily lifecycle.


It is not as good as time played in a season. Nothing beats time played in a season as the way to determine who is botting. If a person is playing for around 20 hours a day for an amount of time longer than humanly possible then that person is botting.
07/03/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Phatty
Fortunately ebola, the double damage doesn't account much except for a 5 grift differential.

Sure. It doesn't allow you to higher level speed grifts for experience and do so more efficiently... only pushing for records is affected by Paragon...
Do you even think before posting?
07/03/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Phatty
There's no real right answer.

Personal opinion that everyone has differs.

Sure, man.
Because "there's no real right answer", that's why D3 is a dead game and the vast majority quit to other games. There's never anything objectively bad about a game... say the removed Trials... they shouldn't have removed them... because the Trials system was OK, removing it wasn't really the right answer...
Making the game about more than just mindless Paragon grind wouldn't be really the right answer.

Couldn't get more postmodern for you if I tried..

Because everything is "personal opinion" the vast majority of the Diablo players quit back in Vanilla, some came back for RoS and then they quit again..
While in some games you can catch up character wise. But in overall knowledge and experience you won't catch up.

So what's the problem with knowledge and experience being the advantage of a veteran player? Why does a veteran need a second advantage in terms of raw damage?
But the vet has played more characters and may have more accounts (ladder games) than the new player. They will usually know the game better as well and have more experience at playing different builds.

And because they know the game better, they didn't need additional advantages.
07/03/2019 08:49 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Here you have to get your head out of the clouds. A player in WoW will not outperform a vet if they don't do some research. Each spec in WoW has a definite rotation that needs to be learned.

Actually, here you need some actual experience to talk. I started WoW back in TBC. I cought up to the players, that initially showed me the game. I wanted to be good, so I learned. Even before the expansion was out, I was outperforming the people who thought me how to play.
I made friends, discussed and debated with them. WotLK came and I outperformed them all, both in PvP and PvE.
Some of them played since Vanilla. If their characters automatically received double or triple stats while having the same gear, same rotation, I would not be able to outperform them.

At some point in Warlords I rolled another character. Even though I was new at the class, I got the gear, I figured out the rotation and I kicked !@#. People asked me how. Now I was the vet, but I didn't need double or triple stats to do it.

How hard is to get your head around the point, that there should be cap on stats in D3, so that performance can actually come in to play? Because at the moment, it really doesn't... or not to the extend it should. Paragon and GRift layout are much more important. Randomness on top of randomness, on top of a ridiculous system like Paragon 2..
And that's why the game is empty.

07/03/2019 08:49 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Obviously that 10k hours to 200 hours was and extreme example of something important. Those that spend more time playing will have more than those that don't.

I can understand someone being better at the game, or having better gear. Being rewarded extra stats for playing longer is just retarded. Again, this (along with other reasons is why the game is dead.
Ebola,

1) Of course, I thought before I posted. Do you have an answer to why someone with 3500+ paragon did worse in my prior post?

Again - paragon matters but not to the extent you are trying to make it seem.

2) There's a lot of reasons why D3 is a "dead" game that we happen to be posting and arguing about something minor.

Good straw man attempt though.
- Pro Tip -
if you spend more time actually playing the game
VS
talking about playing the game
it will lead to...
- higher paragon
- more game knowledge
- better clears
07/03/2019 10:51 PMPosted by Phatty
Do you have an answer to why someone with 3500+ paragon did worse in my prior post?

I assume you're talking about this one:
07/03/2019 01:48 PMPosted by Phatty
3500+ paragon difference.

Explain?

Must be - gear, rift, or skill right?

The RNG of the grift is the biggest determinant. Because the right rift (melee high value high density mobs, right elites (no jugs, illusion, etc) big map (single) + correct pylon order for RG (right RG also) - requires less skill to defeat). The gear differential for most people with right rolls are withing 10 percent.

So the Grift fishing is the winner here. Not the paragon.

Oh. I agree. The variance in GReater Rifts is huge. However
07/03/2019 01:48 PMPosted by Phatty
Rank 10
https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/impulsive%C7%83-1306/hero/105114608

Rank 11
https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/Ubiquity-6737/hero/13304278
Rank 12
https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/MUFDVR-11944/hero/94626888

You're talking about top 12. Don't tell me, that having double or triple damage doesn't matter or make the game easier.
I can absolutely guarantee you, that unless you have IRL friends to boost you in GRifts, the chance you'll get to be the DPS in one of the top clears with 1 or 2K Paragon as opposed to someone with 6 or 7K are zero.
07/03/2019 10:51 PMPosted by Phatty
There's a lot of reasons why D3 is a "dead" game that we happen to be posting and arguing about something minor

Oh yes, there are plenty of reasons. If I really sit down to think about them and list them one by one, I can probably write an entire book.

The title is "Everything is determined by Paragon", which is why we're talking about it. And while I don't fully agree with the OP, I can easily imagine why it seems this way to him if he was denied spot for groups multiple times based on his paragon lvl. Then, that can affect whether he levels up his Legendary Gems, and those are important as well.

I wouldn't call it something minor. Paragon 2.0 is definitely among the main reasons why players, that would otherwise play Diablo 3 don't, and instead choose PoE, Warframe and other games.
It's a needless departure from what made D2 great and it does more harm than good.

I'm not saying it should be changed. I'm more concerned as to what approach Blizz take when it comes to the next game. They'll most likely make something, that will make me prefer D3...
Ebola,

let me get this straight.

Are you agreeing with me that paragon isn't the most important aspect to pushing?

I really don't care about anything else in this thread.
Bots.
Why d3 sucks or died.
Etc.
07/04/2019 12:26 AMPosted by Massaker
- Pro Tip -
if you spend more time actually playing the game
VS
talking about playing the game
it will lead to...
- higher paragon
- more game knowledge
- better clears

Pro tip as to how to be a pro at giving "pro" tips.

Pick a game, that alienated most of it's players.
Farm like crazy or bot (or both).
Pretend to acquire knowledge about the game, even though the only knowledge comes with the patch notes and how much of a buff an item or a set gets.
Go on forums and give "pro" tips.
07/04/2019 12:33 AMPosted by Phatty
Ebola,

let me get this straight.

Are you agreeing with me that paragon isn't the most important aspect to pushing?

I really don't care about anything else in this thread.
Bots.
Why d3 sucks or died.
Etc.

The info you posted indicates, that fishing is more important than paragon when it comes to pushing.
Like I said above, I don't necessarily agree with OP's title.
I would say, that fishing is more important than Paragon when it comes to pushing, yes.

But then there are plenty of other factors. If we're talking speed grifts, having 8mil DPS instead of 5 will make them faster and more consistent.
I always thought we need a exp-gem to step up our low paragons much quicker. Especially solo players benefit of it till p2500.
A gem with increased exp and the cap is p2500.
p1200 player gets a (2500/1200=) 2,083 increased exp till p1201. Then (2500/1201=) 2,081 exp advantage etc etc. Once you hit p2500, the adavantage is gone and this gem is perfectly useless from now. Considering you have to drop a top gem in order to use that exp-gem.
They should just make paragon after 1k cosmetic. Problem solved. Ancient/primal farming = endgame.
The whole point was to have never ending progression.

How do achieve that with capping paragon and just cosmetics?

I think there's a bigger philosophy that's at play here.
07/04/2019 12:33 AMPosted by Phatty
I really don't care about anything else in this thread.
Bots.
Why d3 sucks or died.
Etc.
You don't care those because you are one of "xxx-bot" users who corrupt the entire environment of this game. Are you happy that you can gain exp while you are not actually playing the game (e.g., sleeping, working on other stuffs)?

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