Lord of Destruction is 18 today

General Discussion
What a great game, good times. Duriel was a beast, man he hit hard!
06/27/2019 05:49 PMPosted by Avalon
What a great game, good times. Duriel was a beast, man he hit hard!


And if released as it was 18 years ago today graphics and QOL things missing would see the game as complete garbage.
Nostalgia is what is keeping you liking this game nothing more. But if you love it so much how about you go play it rather then post in the D3 forums
Not sure what you are going on about. Maybe I just don't know.

Diablo III was released on May 15, 2012.

Diablo II was released on June 29, 2000.

So 33 days ago, Diablo III turned 7,

The day after tomorrow, Diablo II will turn 19.

Was this Duriel guy added in a patch?
06/27/2019 06:24 PMPosted by Slamboney
Not sure what you are going on about. Maybe I just don't know.

Diablo III was released on May 15, 2012.

Diablo II was released on June 29, 2000.

So 33 days ago, Diablo III turned 7,

The day after tomorrow, Diablo II will turn 19.

Was this Duriel guy added in a patch?


.... Lord of Destruction was released June 27th, 2001.

Not sure why he’s citing Duriel instead of Baal though.
Probably because by the time you raced through act 2 with just some self found junk Duriel was like running into a brick wall. Holy Freeze aura and big physical damage? Yikes. Not such a big ask these days but he was a deadly foe in his day. Most people's memories of Baal involve standing in a corner while a Hammerdin stands in the middle doing all the work. Not really much of a struggle there.

:shrug:
06/27/2019 06:35 PMPosted by Orrion
Lord of Destruction was released June 27th, 2001.

Not sure why he’s citing Duriel instead of Baal though.
I'm an idiot. Lord of Destruction as in the name of the expansion for the game, rather than Lord of Destruction as a moniker for the enemy Duriel.

It's been so long since I paid any attention to that game, I actually remember very little about it. Especially the date that the expansion pack was released. The guy should've expounded a bit more on what exactly he was talking about.
does that make it legal for piracy?
06/27/2019 10:44 PMPosted by Slamboney
06/27/2019 06:35 PMPosted by Orrion
Lord of Destruction was released June 27th, 2001.

Not sure why he’s citing Duriel instead of Baal though.
I'm an idiot. Lord of Destruction as in the name of the expansion for the game, rather than Lord of Destruction as a moniker for the enemy Duriel.

It's been so long since I paid any attention to that game, I actually remember very little about it. Especially the date that the expansion pack was released. The guy should've expounded a bit more on what exactly he was talking about.


Duriel’s moniker was Lord of Pain, anyway.

Baal is Destruction, hence the expansion that put him in the game.
I remember back in 0.09 fighting helphasto in hell with a barbarian amd hating my life completely physically immune. This game is and will always be legendary.
06/27/2019 07:08 PMPosted by Dysenigrate
Duriel was like running into a brick wall.
I beat him without dying on a summoning druid, any other class or build I'm guaranteed to die multiple times and tp out even more times.
06/27/2019 06:00 PMPosted by Keyblade
06/27/2019 05:49 PMPosted by Avalon
What a great game, good times. Duriel was a beast, man he hit hard!


And if released as it was 18 years ago today graphics and QOL things missing would see the game as complete garbage.
Nostalgia is what is keeping you liking this game nothing more. But if you love it so much how about you go play it rather then post in the D3 forums

What was great about D2 compared to D3 was the itemization system, which in my opinion is still one of the best in the ARPG genre, although it definitely had flaws for example in regards to balance.

Another thing that was great in D2 compared to D3 is that D2 has a better sense of progression and player-driven character customization, for example via skill points and attribute points, but also because of its itemization system and because leveling was not as quick as in D3, which prolonged that whole thing.

If D3 had an attribute system, good itemization and some form of passive and active skill systems in which you can spend your points into in one way or another (*Last Epoch* *cough), I probably could look over the flimsy story and characters, etc.

Sure, the QoL stuff and the combat of D3 is great (in fact I would say these two things are amazing in D3), but the truth is that D3 lacks a lot what would D3 a really amazing ARPG.
06/28/2019 09:20 AMPosted by clueso
06/27/2019 06:00 PMPosted by Keyblade
...

And if released as it was 18 years ago today graphics and QOL things missing would see the game as complete garbage.
Nostalgia is what is keeping you liking this game nothing more. But if you love it so much how about you go play it rather then post in the D3 forums

What was great about D2 compared to D3 was the itemization system, which in my opinion is still one of the best in the ARPG genre, although it definitely had flaws for example in regards to balance.

Another thing that was great in D2 compared to D3 is that D2 has a better sense of progression and player-driven character customization, for example via skill points and attribute points, but also because of its itemization system and because leveling was not as quick as in D3, which prolonged that whole thing.

If D3 had an attribute system, good itemization and some form of passive and active skill systems in which you can spend your points into in one way or another (*Last Epoch* *cough), I probably could look over the flimsy story and characters, etc.

Sure, the QoL stuff and the combat of D3 is great (in fact I would say these two things are amazing in D3), but the truth is that D3 lacks a lot what would D3 a really amazing ARPG.


To add on to this; In Diablo 2 every single monster in the game had it's own Treasure Class/special loot table. Whether it was a Fallen in Blood Moor, Stygian Doll in Durance of Hate or Baal's Minions, everything had different odds of dropping something. For example: Nightmare Andariel has a higher chance of dropping Stone of Jordan than Hell Andariel or even Hell Baal. Those Ghosts in Arcane Sanctuary have the highest chance to drop a Jah Rune over any other trash mob in the game.

In D3, it feels like literally every monster is exactly the same, I would be extremely shocked if there was such a thing as Treasure Class in D3.
06/28/2019 09:47 AMPosted by Whirlwind
In D3, it feels like literally every monster is exactly the same, I would be extremely shocked if there was such a thing as Treasure Class in D3.

The Treasure Class system was dumb precisely because it forced specific mob farming, and by extension of that, filtering out which builds could do so effectively thanks to the combination of immunities you'd find in a given zone. There was also the inconsistency of a base item type possibly being dropped, but the TC level of the area not being high enough to allow for the unique version. Ergo, people could erroneously farm a location hoping to see something, but never would.

From there, you have to decide if the ability to find a cracked sash in Baal's throne room was actually good game design, or if D3's eventual approach of dropping level appropriate items was also for the better. Side nod to whether or not lower level items being endgame viable was also an imbalance in the item pool. Something D3 also eventually got around by letting legendaries drop at current player level.

Otherwise, there is a very implicit benefit to all mobs eventually sharing the same loot pool, and that is to give the players the freedom to explore where they want without feeling like they have to maximize certain targets because they're the best or only source. If your immediate reply is, "But then I can't target farm!" then I'll simply point you to the cube and Kadala. Resources for their use still require playing the game. Only now it's not about rushing to Mephisto ASAP or whatever game creation spam farm du jour.
06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
The Treasure Class system was dumb precisely because it forced specific mob farming,


Was it dumb though? or was it the exact opposite and the majority of players not having the attention span to figure it out for themselves? This makes every single monster in the game interesting to me because seeing a specific monster having a high chance of dropping something but lower chance of dropping something else makes it more memorable and fascinating to me. I also then feel like I'm being rewarded for having knowledge of the game rather than just mindlessly killing everything I see.

06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
filtering out which builds could do so effectively thanks to the combination of immunities you'd find in a given zone.


Why is this a bad thing? The build you choose to run would give you weight on your worth for doing specific things. For example, Blizzard sorcs could farm the Ancient Tunnels while Fire/Lightning sorcs would have a difficult time farming in there due to the abundance of lightning/fire immunes. However, Lightning/Fire sorcs would have an easier time with Pits/Countess while there is a plethora of Cold immunes there, making the Blizzard sorc near useless there. Or let's say I join a 7 player game titled "Hell Ancients" at the start of a ladder reset and they're all doing Ancients, but 5/7 of those people are running builds that do Cold damage and 2 of them run builds that do Fire damage; then 2/3 of the Ancients spawn with double immunities and it's Cold/Fire. Then I join and I'm a lightning trap Assassin. Those people will need me to kill them. I'm not sure about how you'd feel, but I'd feel thrilled that my build would have usefulness in a scenario. Immunities made the game fun and difficult for me.

06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
There was also the inconsistency of a base item type possibly being dropped, but the TC level of the area not being high enough to allow for the unique version. Ergo, people could erroneously farm a location hoping to see something, but never would.


This goes back to the whole idea that the game rewards you for your knowledge of it. Either way, a logical person would go farm for runes and other items to trade for an individual item they'd want rather to farm for it specifically. This is why trading is important. It gives each and every single one of your items worth.
If I want that Tal Rasha's Guardianship I'm not going to go kill Eldritch/Pindle/Baal over and over and hope of getting it. I would go farm areas in the game and find Runes or other high value items to trade for it. Doesn't even need to be unique items too. I could find a rare ring/amulet/Eth weapon with unbelievably good mods that's worth 100x more than that Tal's armor. Oh look, Rare items are actually useful rather than being Veiled Crystals 100% of the time! :D

Completely removing trading from the game to solve RWT puts a dent and damages the community's lifespan.

06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
From there, you have to decide if the ability to find a cracked sash in Baal's throne room was actually good game design, or if D3's eventual approach of dropping level appropriate items was also for the better. Side nod to whether or not lower level items being endgame viable was also an imbalance in the item pool. Something D3 also eventually got around by letting legendaries drop at current player level.


Having legendary items drop at current player level is probably one of the laziest game designs I've seen in D3. Once you're max level then that item becomes near useless due to the power spike. If I got lucky and I found a really rare "powerful" legendary at a low level only to find out it's numbers are lower......I don't know man, I'd get pretty disappointed and bummed out. It's like I win the lottery, then they tell me I won only 2 dollars, then slap me across the face and then tell me I need to play it again in a few hours.

All in all, while I respect your opinion that you don't like D2's unforgiving aspects, Saidosha, that is precisely why so many people loved the game and the franchise. I'm going to say that D3 to me is all just hand-holding, mindless, and blatant number increases. I personally don't find that engaging nor fun.
06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
The Treasure Class system was dumb precisely because it forced specific mob farming,


Was it dumb though? or was it the exact opposite and the majority of players not having the attention span to figure it out for themselves?


That depends. Was the TC system explained in-game, or on an official venue? Or was it something players had to puzzle out for themselves via trial and error?

Specific mob farming isn't inherently bad, nor is it inherently good.

The way D3 did it with crafting mats after RoS launched? That was extremely bad because it was named mob specific, and they never bothered to differentiate between spawn rates or how easy it was to acquire one versus another based on positioning in the zone. But I wouldn't have a problem with certain mob types having a higher chance to drop specific legendary items or crafting mats.

This makes every single monster in the game interesting to me because seeing a specific monster having a high chance of dropping something but lower chance of dropping something else makes it more memorable and fascinating to me.


But the criticism being stated, if I understand correctly, is precisely that because of the way TC worked it would be possible to kill those specific monsters without them having a chance to drop things. This is likely solved by level scaling, but still.

I also then feel like I'm being rewarded for having knowledge of the game rather than just mindlessly killing everything I see.


There's knowledge of the game, and then there's esoteric crap. It shouldn't really be necessary to have a deep understanding of unexplained programming to get the most of the game, nor should it be necessary to master every single thing about every single class to play (or trade) effectively.

06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
filtering out which builds could do so effectively thanks to the combination of immunities you'd find in a given zone.


Why is this a bad thing?


It's a bad thing because you can essentially get !@#$ed over by things you had no way of knowing and/or things completely out of your control.

This is why a game like Grim Dawn is so appealing. Because of the structure of the game - resistances (and how) but not immunities, it is possible to take basically any skill you want (and even default weapon attacks) and make it an effective build because you can find ways to lower resistances or outright change the Element type of your attack.

The build you choose to run would give you weight on your worth for doing specific things. For example, Blizzard sorcs could farm the Ancient Tunnels while Fire/Lightning sorcs would have a difficult time farming in there due to the abundance of lightning/fire immunes. However, Lightning/Fire sorcs would have an easier time with Pits/Countess while there is a plethora of Cold immunes there, making the Blizzard sorc near useless there. Or let's say I join a 7 player game titled "Hell Ancients" at the start of a ladder reset and they're all doing Ancients, but 5/7 of those people are running builds that do Cold damage and 2 of them run builds that do Fire damage; then 2/3 of the Ancients spawn with double immunities and it's Cold/Fire. Then I join and I'm a lightning trap Assassin. Those people will need me to kill them. I'm not sure about how you'd feel, but I'd feel thrilled that my build would have usefulness in a scenario. Immunities made the game fun and difficult for me.


And what happens in your scenario if they're unable to find a Lightning-oriented player?

I mean, I get this, sort of. It was the same way in the MMOs of old.. in EverQuest pretty much every group needed an Enchanter or Bard to deal with multiple mob pulls, and that's fantastic when you're an Enchanter with a bunch of buddies. But it's not so fantastic when you can't find one.

06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
There was also the inconsistency of a base item type possibly being dropped, but the TC level of the area not being high enough to allow for the unique version. Ergo, people could erroneously farm a location hoping to see something, but never would.


This goes back to the whole idea that the game rewards you for your knowledge of it.


Which goes back to this: Exactly how deep does your knowledge need to go?

Either way, a logical person would go farm for runes and other items to trade for an individual item they'd want rather to farm for it specifically. This is why trading is important. It gives each and every single one of your items worth.


Well, no, it doesn't, because most items still aren't worth trading in the first place.. and you've hit the crux. An open trading system means you need to know pretty much everything about every class and their effective builds, lest you accidentally squander something good.

If I want that Tal Rasha's Guardianship I'm not going to go kill Eldritch/Pindle/Baal over and over and hope of getting it. I would go farm areas in the game and find Runes or other high value items to trade for it. Doesn't even need to be unique items too. I could find a rare ring/amulet/Eth weapon with unbelievably good mods that's worth 100x more than that Tal's armor. Oh look, Rare items are actually useful rather than being Veiled Crystals 100% of the time! :D


And if RNG just hates you and you can't farm your item due to your build, then what's your recourse?

Completely removing trading from the game to solve RWT puts a dent and damages the community's lifespan.


It doesn't have to. You can have benefits for playing with others and being in groups/clans/guilds without the overreaching goal of screwing people over so you can be virtually rich.

06/28/2019 01:50 PMPosted by Saidosha
From there, you have to decide if the ability to find a cracked sash in Baal's throne room was actually good game design, or if D3's eventual approach of dropping level appropriate items was also for the better. Side nod to whether or not lower level items being endgame viable was also an imbalance in the item pool. Something D3 also eventually got around by letting legendaries drop at current player level.


Having legendary items drop at current player level is probably one of the laziest game designs I've seen in D3. Once you're max level then that item becomes near useless due to the power spike.


That's not a problem with legendary items dropping at current player level. I mean, before that, Aquila Cuirass just dropped at around level 18 because that's what it was set at. So if you didn't get it to drop while you were level 15 to 22 or so, then your chance of seeing it was nil until max level.

If I got lucky and I found a really rare "powerful" legendary at a low level only to find out it's numbers are lower......I don't know man, I'd get pretty disappointed and bummed out. It's like I win the lottery, then they tell me I won only 2 dollars, then slap me across the face and then tell me I need to play it again in a few hours.


Well, there really aren't rare "powerful" legendary items anymore, so that shouldn't be an issue.

All in all, while I respect your opinion that you don't like D2's unforgiving aspects, Saidosha, that is precisely why so many people loved the game and the franchise. I'm going to say that D3 to me is all just hand-holding, mindless, and blatant number increases. I personally don't find that engaging nor fun.


D3's 180 reversal from D2 wasn't good, but neither was D2's extremes. There's middle ground.
06/27/2019 06:00 PMPosted by Keyblade
06/27/2019 05:49 PMPosted by Avalon
What a great game, good times. Duriel was a beast, man he hit hard!


And if released as it was 18 years ago today graphics and QOL things missing would see the game as complete garbage.
Nostalgia is what is keeping you liking this game nothing more. But if you love it so much how about you go play it rather then post in the D3 forums

If D3 is in maintenance mode, imagine LoD!
Here's the thing, the fact the question was even posed that people wouldn't know TC existed in D2 indicates the game's failure to explain a very important aspect of the loot hunt. If you weren't the sort to seek out outside sources, let alone the right ones, you could still have failed to learn about it. And yes, I played back then. The resources available were kinda so-so and it wasn't until modding really picked up later that certain intricacies were further extrapolated. And by then, someone's interest in the game could've easily waned.

At the barest minimum, one should figure that killing a harder target should yield better potential loot. For the most part, the TC system does succeed in this, but it's the nuance and other factors I mentioned above that essentially install a needless complication. You also have the occasional area that bucks the TC trend, being significantly higher than sections preceding for no real reason other than maybe Blizzard realizing they kinda screwed up on Hell and the loot hunt in general. Someone could actually play through these locations and also not realize the drop potential was "better" precisely because of RNG, and in turn, not care about them in future plays.

Now, if you're approaching all this from the concept that trade is mandatory, then of course you're going to dislike chopping off outside-difficulty drops because it essentially improves drop rates by 33-66% when things do drop. And if we're being honest, most items dropped in D2 were left on the ground to rot precisely because there was an oversaturation of garbage loot. The Countess certainly makes a tempting target for rune farming, too, but let's not pretend it isn't a hassle for non-Sorcs or anyone without an Enigma in Hell to get to in under 5m. And it's always fun doing that just to get sub-10 runes. Frankly, rune drops could have also benefited from difficulty aligned drop ranges. So, much like the cracked sash, you wouldn't want to be seeing an El in the throne room drop. Instead, we've gotta settle for cubing up and what was an eventual mediocre increase to drop rate universally. Betcha most people never found a Zod, though.

Of course, I also understand the desire to game the system by taking advantage of information your peers may not. Can that be a selfish act? Absolutely. Does it intrinsically make the game better? I can't say it does. Part of what makes a community work is sharing, but the moment personal profit and greed enters the picture, that vision of community tends to falter. Great, so NM Andy has the best chance for an SOJ to drop. This isn't something you learn in-game by playing. There's no rhyme or reason to it, either. It just arbitrarily is. Pragmatically, an item should drop with its wearable level relatively close to the mob killed. Paired with killing harder prey yielding better loot, there should obviously be a point where this item can always be dropped. And while true that adding more unique rings to the pool can diminish its chance to appear, that's where a broader targeting comes in handy as opposed to pushing the rate onto a singular mob that's only present once per game. More pulls at the slot machine is simply going to give you a better chance overall to acquire whatever. Or what if SOJ was changed to only drop in A2 NM? It'd certainly make it easier to farm as a high level, but I'd also say it could've tempted people to not try to rush through the act when playing normally.

But in the end, I'll never personally be convinced that a level 20 item should ever beat a level 70 item, but that's exactly what happened in D2. In some case, it means the loot hunt for a slot ends early. For the builds that require the higher tier stuff, it just takes that much longer. Pair this with the cumbersome inventory/stash systems and the need to level alts for the longest time to try different things, and it's not really surprising why certain items also became desired as guaranteed sources of certain abilities. And as overpowered as I think the +skill affix was in D2, I also believe there should've been a high level ring that put SOJ to shame. And I don't look that as designing lazily. I look to it as actually valuing progression.
Nice discussion, Whirlwind, Saidosha and Orrion. A lot of good points from all sides.
I respect D2 traditionalists but I stick to the critic and (selectively) evolutionist view.
06/27/2019 05:49 PMPosted by Avalon
What a great game, good times. Duriel was a beast, man he hit hard!


go to D2 forums.. not here.

downvoting... booo!
different strokes for different folks.

I personally liked D2 and its gear hunt a lot better than D3 where your sets are almost always best-in-slot and legendary items pour down like rain

I'd say 1.09 was the best patch - I didn't care for it nearly as much after they started adding overpowered runewords like Enigma and BOTD and the meta ended up being nothing but teleporting hammerdins or teleporting hurricane druids.

Edit: and yes, Duriel was an absolute beast. I remember playing with friends just zerging into his room one after another with hardly enough time to pop a TP scroll before dying, or stepping through the door with a full army of skeletons / skeletal mages and them being nothing but a few seconds of fodder while spamming a clay golem that was also just as moot

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