Why Aren't Unlimited, Free Respecs Enough?

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Why have a game where each class specialize in one thing? Paper Rock Scissors with better graphics. This game is like MMA. Better be ready for everything in PVP or your done son!
Its good to see everyone here is so against innovation and trying something new.

Have any of you been watching D3 streams? If you do you might have a better idea of how this mechanic really feels, and though I've not played it yet I think it feels really good.

Remember in D2, you would have your MF frost Sorc who could not go kill specific bosses, or even random mobs, because they are frost immune. With a system like this that's NEVER a problem and thank god for that.

I think you are all being way to over dramatic on this issue, why don't we let the profession game designers do their job. When the game comes out and if the majority of the community still hates it or its game breaking in some way, Blizz can change it then.
Well I for one think the respec system is justified the way it is. My reason for this is if you play the game the amount of spells you get in one short block of time is considerably large. Players in the early game would get the two default spells which would be locked and then they would get another spell which they would select next and by the time all spells are unlocked they would have to respec several times in even just the course of getting to and beating the Skeleton King.

Now lets say that it costs an increasing amount of gold or can only be done after a completion. In this case the player will either have to pay unnecessary amounts of gold for respecs or play through the most part of the game with only a few spells the player wants until the rest they want are unlocked for use. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem like a "fun" idea to me it sounds bothersome. I think the flexibility of the spells is a good thing and the runes and armor twinks will provide enough customization at higher levels whilst leaving players to freely choose and learn the spells earlier in the game.

M2C
From my first look at it, I realized the diablo 3 skill system looked a lot like the Guild Wars system. For those unfamiliar with it, every character was allowed up to 8 skill slots at any given time.
Guild Wars is an MMO like all others in that, when your in an outpost or city, there are thousands of people sitting around and you cannot engage in combat. Once you went outside however, the world was limited to only your party which was usually a max of 8 people but sometimes could be as high as 16.
Once you went outside your characters build was fixed. While you had easily over 100 skills for each "profession" once you went out of town the 8 skills you decided on stuck with you for the rest of your time adventuring until you returned to another town. Guild Wars even added a feature where you could save a build as a template and then quickly switch builds with the click of a button.
With this system, provided the character had enough resources to deck himself out in the proper gear and skills, a single character could change roles completely at any time in town, whether it was for pvp or pve. However, they could not, on a whim, completely change from being a heal and support monk to being a holy damage nuker in the middle of a boss fight.
This system allowed for experimentation but also limited time having to deal with a boring character page that should be spent watching the pretty explosions. I'm not saying the Diablo should completely steal this system, but I defiantly found it to be a very unique and clean twist to the traditional RPG skill selection.
I was a fan of how Guild Wars handled their combat swapping. They have a very similar system as D3 is currently using. You have a crap ton of skills, and can obtain them all, but when you go to combat you can only equip 8.

When GW first came out the penalty for swapping skills was spending skill points you gained whenever you gained experience. Not too long into the game though I guess Anet thought that was a little tedious and they decided to disband any penalty what-so-ever.

This led to a balance issue because players would stack certain attributes, cast strong enchantments, leave them active and then swap out their builds. I know D3 you can't swap attributes like that, but I'm not sure how many enchantment type spells they have where you could cast it, remove that skill for a new one, and keep the effect on you.

GW prevented this by only allowing you to change your skills in town. I don't see why it would be such a big deal to do the same in D3. I mean really, I don't need to be murdering stuff 100% of the time. We pretty much already don't have to go back to town for much else, so going back to change skills doesn't seem harsh. I feel as though at some point late in the game you won't be swapping your skills much anyway because you'll find a build that works for you (with the exception of resistance heavy areas).

Gear is a reason why skill swapping isn't a real issue. Your gear will be tailored for your build. Swapping skills will probably weaken your character unless you go back to your stash or carry extra gear.



Tyranid brings up a huge point. In fact, he sways my opinion on whether they should do anything with the skill-swap system at all. Giving it thought...

1) There will probably only be 2-3 skills end-game that are given emphasis by your gear (assuming it's anything like DII). This would be what your build is centered around, leaving the other 3-4 slots open for swap.

2) Assuming (1) is how it'll work, that leaves players open to experimentation early on.

Gear is a reason why skill swapping isn't a real issue. Your gear will be tailored for your build. Swapping skills will probably weaken your character unless you go back to your stash or carry extra gear.



Tyranid brings up a huge point. In fact, he sways my opinion on whether they should do anything with the skill-swap system at all. Giving it thought...

1) There will probably only be 2-3 skills end-game that are given emphasis by your gear (assuming it's anything like DII). This would be what your build is centered around, leaving the other 3-4 slots open for swap.

2) Assuming (1) is how it'll work, that leaves players open to experimentation early on.


This will work for some builds. But Diablo 3 is much more open in terms of gear for builds, because all damage comes from the +Attack stat. So unless you're doing a build focused on crit, or vitality, or defense, for example, the skills you choose really won't affect the gear you wear.

Most people will just stack +Attack and the skills they use are just personal preference.
If you really don't like the free respec whenever and wherever then go back to town and pretend to respec and waste you're own time nobodys stopping you from doing that.
I'm absolutely for restrictive skill swapping. I'd take it in any form - small/large penalties for swapping, unlimited in-town swapping. But the in-the-field skill swapping sounds absolutely ridiculous.

I've read most of the responses saying people want to "experiment" and that "unhindering" the process makes for a better experience. These are the same people who probably use cheat codes as a kid growing up...

+1 for restrictive skill swapping
Sorry I came to this one late Magnus!

I think with most people who want more, just worry about the extreme. Runes being destroyed..once a day reset.. etc.


Mainly what I worry about as a limitation supporter is this below..

09/21/2011 06:33 AMPosted by Aderis
If Blizzard allows swapping skills in combat, just let the cat out of the bag, and give players all skills at all times, instead of essentially giving players access to all skills at all times for fast spellbook clickers.


As they said they are working on a limitation, I expect to see something very soon. People will still have unlimited ability to switch skills out. They just will not be able to do it while fighting.
I think the skill slot limitation is what creates this feeling. To me, it's a lot more irritating and restrictive than anything about D2's system. Here is why:

In D2, once you unlocked a skill by spending a skill point on it, you could map it and use it. It didn't matter what level you were at. If you had unlocked the skill, you had the right to use it whenever you wanted as long as you had the mana.

In D3, you start with 2 active skill slots and you don't get your third until level 6. The moment you hit level 2, and earn your third skill, you feel cheated. Your character has 3 unlocked skills, but you can only use 2 of them at a time. This reaches a boiling point by level 5, where your character has 6 unlocked skills but you can still only use 2.

What's worse, the only thing you tangibly gain when you level is a new skill since we don't do skill points or attributes anymore. Heck, right after the big flashy level up message, the game informs you of your shiny new skill waiting to be tried. These two facts make you REALLY want to try your new skill. But you have to ditch something to try it.

The sum of all these smaller design choices is a massive psychological impact on the player. It's not like D2 where you decide which toy you want and then you get to play with it. D3 constantly gives you new toys, but tells you that you CAN'T play with them.......unless you open up that menu screen and switch.


I believe this is the case. The new system has changed perception of skills and now players feel like they are being denied something they never had to begin with in this game or any like it. This leads to the desire to want more access.

Personally I am fine with the removal of trees and 6 skill limitation since I see it for what it is, the number of skills that will make for the best gameplay in Blizzard's estimation. As long as I can respec occasionaly then I will never have a wasted character (like in D2) and everything works great.

What's funny is that if Blizzard had come out with a no tree system in which we just picked our skills and were stuck with them permanently everyone would be happy as long as we could respec with some gold. We used to debate if respecs should exist AT ALL in D3. I don't recall anyone ever tossing around ideas about completely free anytime respecs in early development before the removal of trees was announced. Allowing us to experiment is turning into both a wonderful and terrible thing.
... because going back to town to do something is not fun. Same reason the Cauldron of Jordan/Nephalem Cube exist.
09/21/2011 07:24 AMPosted by SunnyH
... because going back to town to do something is not fun. Same reason the Cauldron of Jordan/Nephalem Cube exist.


Idk about anyone else but in an RPG I tend to like realism in a fantasy world kind of way as opposed to being able to do w/e u want for times sake.

With that said I'm happy that I don't have to spend hours leveling different characters of the same class to play all the different styles but not knowing exactly what everyone is !@#$%ing about I don't really have an opinion one way or the other I guess.
While you do make the point that people will be respecing a lot. I believe the respecs will only last until someone finds a play style they enjoy. Once people find their play style, they will invest runes into those skills, and then choices become more permanent. Then there's the choice of whether or not they switch out a skill with a rune with one that doesn't and become less effective.

However, this is based on the assumption that once you put a rune into a skill it stays in that skill. Is that true at all? Or will we be able to switch out runes as freely as we can with skills?
In-Combat Skill Swapping goes directly against their 6 active, 3 passive skill limitation.

Also, it is in the same vein when Jay stated that town should be something more ( turning in quests, an event, artisans ) than going back to sell, repair, buy potions and more scrolls of town portal. Requiring Skill Swap to occur in town would go against this due to the possibility that someone would want to Skill Swap often.

Diablo 3 is maximizing the amount of time spent slaying monsters and getting loots. Everyone will eventually find a build that suits their style and Skill Swap less often.

Finally, there's no overwhelming evidence in the Beta of people wanting to In-Combat Skill Swap, nor do they frequently Skill Swap out of necessity.

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