Dual Resource System.

Demon Hunter
Firstly, Let me say I've been greatly disappointed thus far with the Demon Hunter's lack of effective killing power compared to the Wizard and Monk (the other two classes I've tried).

When I first heard the DH had two resources this is what I hoped and imagined it would be like...

Discipline Spenders - These skills would be tailored to spells that are carefully thought out, such as Traps, Buffs, De-buffs, Companions and Utility.

-As you use these spells the balance shifts toward Hatred, decreasing effectiveness of your subsequent Discipline Spending Abilities.

Hatred Spenders - These spells would be tailored to more reckless spells like Multi-shot, Impale, Rapid fire, and Most other direct damage dealing abilities.

-As you use these spells the balance shifts toward Discipline, decreasing the effectiveness of your next subsequent Hatred Spending Abilities.

Thoughts, Comments?
WoW players would be ticked that the Demon Hunter was stealing their Moonkin playstyle.
Agree with Carlomagno. ECLIPSE, NOW SUNFIRE!
It certainly has similarities to the Moonkin, But I feel like its a better set up than whats currently in the game, It will get players to use the Discipline abilities in conjunction with Hatred rather than attempt to create builds around generating and using Hatred only.
They did change the method to spender generator, but I think the "moonkin" system would be much better than the typical spender/generator.

Also, they probably wouldn't even need to have the damage diminishing in order to promote using the other resource, just place attacks with different effects on each resource, similar to the arcane vs nature (moonkin). For example, explosions vs magic, or even high dmg versus slowing, just throwing out ideas.
This way the player will determine if they prefer using one resource more than the other, or equally. This wouldn't be a problem since Diablo has always been about varying playstyle. Plus, it would be mandatory to at least use some abilities on the other resource for generation anyway. This would definitely make the double resource system much more interesting and dynamic.

Another option (again from the wow model :P) make some sort of nuke ability/utility available only when at full resource on one side. Nothing too OP obviously. One way to do this: have certain abilities change when at full Hatred/Discipline or an attack speed buff vs slowing stun ability added to your attacks when at like ~90% of one resource.

I must say I'm always wary bringing WoW stuff into Diablo, but this mechanic would definitely be welcomed.
Just to reiterate, I feel like with the current system Gen/Spen on Hatred, Discipline will be left in the dust, Sure you'll need it for some spells but I feel like the Discipline spell usage is going to be minimal if the current system stands.

I like the duality of the resource system, But I feel like they should be used as such. With the current model you can potentially ignore one resource or the other, not saying that's optimal, but it can be done.

Under this model, you could not ignore the devastating effects of not using one or the other.

Another Idea:

While in town, you generate both over time.
Hatred Spenders generate Discipline.
Discipline Spenders generate Hatred.
Have equal pools of each resource as well, not 100 hatred, 30 discipline.

Example:

Assuming both are full and start at 100.

You fire 2 Multishots, bringing you to half your total Hatred(50), In order to not completely drain yourself of Hatred, you must a Discipline Skill, You cast a couple Sentries, Bringing your Hatred up to 75, and your Discipline down to 75.
The problem with the whole "disc Generates hatred" is that you basically force people to use defensive abilities to gen hate, even when they aren't really needed. There are some offensive disc abilities, but then you spend on them and don't have disc for defense when you need it, which is what it's really for. I saw someone describing disc best thought of as a universal cooldown for all the defense abilities.
I like the duality of the resource system, But I feel like they should be used as such. With the current model you can potentially ignore one resource or the other, not saying that's optimal, but it can be done.

Under this model, you could not ignore the devastating effects of not using one or the other

Well, you can kind of ignore a lot of how the other classes' resource systems work too, can't you? A monk doesn't HAVE to use spirit spenders, etc. Of course it's not optimal, and so very few people will probably play that way.

The fact that H/D don't depend on each other doesn't mean that people arent encouraged enough to use them, and hey, if they don't use them both to their full potential, then that's their loss.

I fully plan on being able to sustainably spend both resources in a rotation-esque weaving of discipline (de)buffs, and hatred attacks, hopefully to great effect in both crowd and single-target positions... if some people aren't willing to understand the system/a build enough to accomplish this, I don't think it necessarily requires change.

Let the good players be separated from the bad imo.
Hatred Spenders generate Discipline.
Discipline Spenders generate Hatred.

This is originally how I thought the two resources should work and it matches the Demon Hunter character perfectly. They are fuelled by their hatred, but they must maintain some semblance of control so they don't get tunnel vision, surrounded and killed.

However I don't think both resources should start full as being full of hatred and being full of discipline are two different states of mind. To me Hatred should work similar to Fury, as the concepts of fury and hatred really are very similar. When at rest you're not full of hatred or fury, so neither should those resources start full. Conversely, at rest Discipline would be full and would regenerate quickly, similar to Arcane Power. Spending the resources would be a little different to how you imagine tho.

Hatred Generators - Spend Discipline
The Demon Hunter is either setting up an ambush with traps or doing lots of damage but is loosing control and getting tunnel vision.

Hatred Spenders (1) - No Resource Generation
The Demon Hunter would do massive damage but be left with little Hatred or Discipline left. However as Discipline generates quickly, basic attacks can still be used, converting it to hatred again to keep the damage flowing.

Hatred Spenders (2) - Generate Discipline
These skills would do damage, but also calm the Demon Hunter down, e.g. calming down in order to take a well aimed, high damage shot. This would generate enough discipline for a quick vault away or to throw out some traps.

Discipline Spenders - Generate Hatred
And it's back to generating hatred again. Vaulting into a better position, throwing out some traps or shooing a Bola shot, would spend the discipline but gain hatred.


09/28/2011 08:39 AMPosted by Dahippee
The problem with the whole "disc Generates hatred" is that you basically force people to use defensive abilities to gen hate, even when they aren't really needed.

This can be overcome if the skills are re-organized, so that skills like Bola Shot, Spike Trap or Entangling Shot which currently generate hatred, also spend discipline. Discipline doesn't necessarily mean defensive.


09/28/2011 08:39 AMPosted by Dahippee
I saw someone describing disc best thought of as a universal cooldown for all the defense abilities.

But linking the two resources allows for more options. The player can choose to sacrifice the ability to vault away to gain even more Hatred and thus increasing their damage output. Kind of like a all in last stand, either the demon goes down, or you do. Currently a player could do this by selecting only Hatred skills, however there is no real damage increase and then the Discipline resource is just sitting there collecting dust, may as well just have the one resource then.


09/28/2011 02:41 PMPosted by dslyecix
A monk doesn't HAVE to use spirit spenders, etc. Of course it's not optimal, and so very few people will probably play that way.

As Discipline rapidly regenerates and is the resource used for the basic attacks, the player is not forced to manage their resource. However, as you said, it would not be optimal and so more knowledgeable players would try to manage the two resources.

Ultimately tho, this is simply how I imagined the dual resource system would work. Not really thinking Blizzard is going to change it to this as I'm sure they've got their ideas and know how to make games far better than I do.

/ text wall

I personally find the current system fair. As the game progresses, I'm sure you will find yourself drained of hatred and discipline. Hell, there's even a 5 min cooldown skill called preparation that replenishes all discipline. I'm sure they put it there for a good reason.

I personally like vaulting around, so my discipline is rarely above 50%.
Changing the Disc/Hatred system to be like like Moonkins eclipse system would be a terrable idea becouse the eclipse sytem was a stupid idea to begin with(rotation feels artificial and stiff doesn't flow at all).i actualy like the way they have it now,you have your Hatred spenders/generaters to do your attacks and disc as a back up for your defencive skills i
ugh please no, i hate the moonkin mechanics.
What skill did you use to get the killing power on monk?
Exploding Palm works quite well. The General feel of the monk to me was strong, pretty easy to stay alive AND not be drained of resources. I never felt overwhelmed by monsters (except the occasional arcane enchanted group) but that changed when I hit level 12 and kept Breath of Heaven on my bar.
This is not simple has 'this hero doesn't do much damage'. If you are new to diablo you should go Barb or monk. You can get out of trouble faster than a range hero. You really need to know what you doing with a cast/range in hell/inferno level for example since they are not ment to absorve damage. I'm sorry I'm totally away of the original subject.
How I'd love to see it:

Hatred abilities generate Hatred, which counts down at a moderate pace.

Discipline abilities cost Discipline, which regens somewhat slowly.

The catch is that if you max-out on Hatred, you are overcome with memories of the past and are incapacitated in some way for a short time.

In addition, the higher your Hatred, the higher your Discipline costs, and the higher your Discipline, the lower your Hatred gains. Higher Discipline could also provide a passive Hatred degradation increase that scaled with the % of max Discipline you have.

Keep the defensive and utility abilities on Discipline and the attacks on Hatred.

I might even go a step further and, in order to avoid the current beta issue with DH (running out of Hatred too fast because everything uses resource) some more basic attacks (entangling Shot, Hungering Arrow, Evasive Fire, Spike Trap, etc.) would cost Hatred, ie: help cool it down so you don't have to use the basic attack all the time, and can focus more on mixing your abilities to keep the Hatred generation in check with spenders and Discipline abilities.

Hatred generators would have to be high-damage and generally out-weigh the Hatred spenders in resource accumulation, however, to ensure the additional use of Discipline abilities.
Yeah, I hope they're not through messing with the Demon Hunter's resource system. I like Wade's and Kalia's and Kiranae's suggestions above.

Seriously, when I heard of the Demon Hunter, I said, that's the character I want. Two resources, ranged, torn between discipline and hatred, roaming the world alone, destroying the demons, kind of like a Paladin, except cool.

Now that I've seen some playthroughs . . . they've got work to do. They'll get it, but they haven't got it yet.

But focusing on the lore for a bit . . . here's a character controlled by hatred, but with discipline, what, welling up gradually inside? Huh? That's not awesome; it's backward. How about the shoe on the other foot. How about a disciplined character, thinking, aiming carefully, maintaining control, but when cornered, the rage comes out. "Uh-oh, I think we made her angry."

Put discipline on the left. It should regenerate quickly. All hatred generators (roughly) should instead cost discipline. You're shooting precisely, entangling, sending out seeking arrows, that sort of thing, in addition to vaulting, tumbling, marking, laying traps, and other current discipline skills.

Put hatred on the right. It's always welling up slowly, you can't keep those memories down, but a demon hunter can use it. And when you're cornered, when you've got no traps, when you can't vault away anymore, well -- the best defense is a good offense anyway. All hatred spenders should become more powerful, should become awesome enough to save up, should not be spammed. Arrows that do insane damage and pass right on through, wrecklessly fast shooting, a fistful of arrows on the string at once, rains of arrows from the sky -- Oh yeah. These should be amped up so that they can lay waste a crowd of enemies, or drop the hammer to finish off a boss that's starting to get the best of you. You should be glad you saved them for just the right moment.

A demon hunter should take a deep, contented breath, her anger sated, for a brief moment, by the twisted, fallen bodies of her latest enemies.

Because who wants to save up a resource for running away?

I like some of the above ideas about the resources cross-feeding each other, and other ideas. But I really really hope this character becomes fun before I get to play.
How about a disciplined character, thinking, aiming carefully, maintaining control, but when cornered, the rage comes out. "Uh-oh, I think we made her angry."

Put discipline on the left. It should regenerate quickly. All hatred generators (roughly) should instead cost discipline. You're shooting precisely, entangling, sending out seeking arrows, that sort of thing, in addition to vaulting, tumbling, marking, laying traps, and other current discipline skills.

Put hatred on the right. It's always welling up slowly, you can't keep those memories down, but a demon hunter can use it. And when you're cornered, when you've got no traps, when you can't vault away anymore, well -- the best defense is a good offense anyway. All hatred spenders should become more powerful, should become awesome enough to save up, should not be spammed. Arrows that do insane damage and pass right on through, wrecklessly fast shooting, a fistful of arrows on the string at once, rains of arrows from the sky -- Oh yeah. These should be amped up so that they can lay waste a crowd of enemies, or drop the hammer to finish off a boss that's starting to get the best of you. You should be glad you saved them for just the right moment.

A demon hunter should take a deep, contented breath, her anger sated, for a brief moment, by the twisted, fallen bodies of her latest enemies.

Because who wants to save up a resource for running away?



^ I really like this.
Most of the suggestions since the announced change have been hackneyed and goofy. This seems legit and makes me want to amass some hatred to launch a devastating attack of Awesome.

Anyone else feel the same?
How about a disciplined character, thinking, aiming carefully, maintaining control, but when cornered, the rage comes out. "Uh-oh, I think we made her angry."

Put discipline on the left. It should regenerate quickly. All hatred generators (roughly) should instead cost discipline. You're shooting precisely, entangling, sending out seeking arrows, that sort of thing, in addition to vaulting, tumbling, marking, laying traps, and other current discipline skills.

Put hatred on the right. It's always welling up slowly, you can't keep those memories down, but a demon hunter can use it. And when you're cornered, when you've got no traps, when you can't vault away anymore, well -- the best defense is a good offense anyway. All hatred spenders should become more powerful, should become awesome enough to save up, should not be spammed. Arrows that do insane damage and pass right on through, wrecklessly fast shooting, a fistful of arrows on the string at once, rains of arrows from the sky -- Oh yeah. These should be amped up so that they can lay waste a crowd of enemies, or drop the hammer to finish off a boss that's starting to get the best of you. You should be glad you saved them for just the right moment.

A demon hunter should take a deep, contented breath, her anger sated, for a brief moment, by the twisted, fallen bodies of her latest enemies.

Because who wants to save up a resource for running away?

I like some of the above ideas about the resources cross-feeding each other, and other ideas. But I really really hope this character becomes fun before I get to play.


Like
(Adding this from my own thread in the interest of keeping all like minded posts together)

The way i visualised the balance between hate and discipline was for the resources in the bulb to grow/shrink in tandem.
-Spamming hate abilities slowly causes hate to be used up and the discipline to grow 'pushing' the hate resource to the left in small increments (more for larger attacks).
After fueling her attacks with her hatred of demons the demon hunter needs to calm her mind lest she lose herself to mindless hatred permanently
-Using a discipline skill would cause the hate resource to push the discipline back to the right (in larger jumps).
By utilizing the disciplined gained by years of hard training the DH can quell the rising hate for brief periods of time to perform more advanced and complex tasks

Numbers could be tweaked (and maybe influenced by passives) to balance the number of hate/disc skills required to keep the resources balanced. This could be further used to add variety to play styles. (e.g. a passive that doubles the hate cost of abilities, thus enabling a more discipline focused build by requiring minimal use of hatred abilities).

(i personally don't have a problem with all builds requiring at least 1 of each resource type to be effective, most other classes have this requirement)

Furthermore, the class would have a natural regen that would always regen towards the center point where hate/disc are in balance.

This would make for a much more intuitive resource that would really suit the class lore.

Courage? It takes no courage to die. But living takes nerve. Waylander, David Gemmel

P.S. I should add moving traps/grenades to discipline skills (as they require complex preparation) would balance the resources somewhat.

grassy

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