Of Weapon Speed, Wizards and One-Handers

Wizard

Which really makes it seem like more of a "Do you want your build to have the advantages of a 2h or advantages of a 1h + offhand" rather than "Do the skills you choose force you to pick one type of weapon over another?" I'm of the opinion now, given the light of Wyatt's email, that the differences aren't probably all that much, and you can choose whichever one you want based off what you see more valuable, rather than being compelled to use one or another because you wanted to use a certain skill.


Thank you, that's what I was worried about. Sometimes weapon/skill synergy is so strong you can only use one kind of weapon, or one set of skills based on your weapon. I didn't think Blizzard would let that happen, but you never know. Personally, I really like the art for the two hand staves, so I would be bummed if they didn't work well at all compared to one/off hand.
Thanks for the information. I'll almost certainly go 1h+orb for PvE, 1h+shield for PvP, depending on how much of a defensive boon shields end up providing.
Thanks as well for the answer, it's nice to feel like we're really chatting with devs about the guts of this game. I know we're not the pros here, but we do really care about the end result too.

Which really makes it seem like more of a "Do you want your build to have the advantages of a 2h or advantages of a 1h + offhand" rather than "Do the skills you choose force you to pick one type of weapon over another?" I'm of the opinion now, given the light of Wyatt's email, that the differences aren't probably all that much, and you can choose whichever one you want based off what you see more valuable, rather than being compelled to use one or another because you wanted to use a certain skill.


Thank you, that's what I was worried about. Sometimes weapon/skill synergy is so strong you can only use one kind of weapon, or one set of skills based on your weapon. I didn't think Blizzard would let that happen, but you never know. Personally, I really like the art for the two hand staves, so I would be bummed if they didn't work well at all compared to one/off hand.


They actually talked a bit about skill synergy at Blizzcon, and said that they want some synergy, but not a lot, for the same reasons you just pointed out. The example they used was a Demon Hunter build that used a +dodge passive and two passives that do something when you dodge (I can't remember the exact effects, or the names of the skills, offhand). They agreed that too much synergy makes it hard to avoid "optimal" builds, so they're trying to cut back on things like that.

Anyway, I think the intent about sometimes wanting a 1H/OH or a 2H weapon has to do with builds, not individual skills. I can't think of a skill that would be designed around using a 2H over a 1H, although I haven't done much theorycrafting myself (and it's 2 in the morning...), so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but for a specific build, I could see wanting slower, heavier, efficient casts with one build, but wanting faster casts with another build, even if they use similar (or even the same!) skills.
Thanks for the in depth answer!

I think the way the resource systems work and how casting/attack speed are influenced by weapon speed are very clever. All classes have the similar trade offs with regards to weapon speed, mobility, resource regeneration, and big hit spell damage. It sounds like all weapon choices are viable in D3 for all characters, but builds and playstyle will be the ultimate reason to choose 1 hand/off hand vs 1 hand/shield vs 2 hand vs dual wield. I think this is ideal!

The only thing I worry a bit about is that weapon types will feel irrelevant - like a polearm feeling the same as a dagger/off-hand. I hope the itemization is such that different weapon types really feel different. Maybe only specific prefixes are available on given item types that prevents the feeling of item soup and make you excited to see specific item types drop.
These are some of the things i'm going to be looking for as I level in D3 :)

http://d3db.com/tool/planner/wizard/51940

also a really nice character planner...


edit: made some changes
lol
Additionally, if you choose to use an orb, every wizard Orb (and witchdoctor Mojo) comes with +dmg on it.


The rare crafted orb currently in beta actually does not have +damage on it. Makes it worse than magic ones but I suspect this is just an oversight.
11/06/2011 04:37 AMPosted by Darkel
Additionally, if you choose to use an orb, every wizard Orb (and witchdoctor Mojo) comes with +dmg on it.


The rare crafted orb currently in beta actually does not have +damage on it. Makes it worse than magic ones but I suspect this is just an oversight.


Haha, this is really funny to me. Of course it's no surprise, but it'll be funny to see how quickly the importance of those first 13 levels will disappear 30 minutes after the game is released.

Side Note:

It also pisses me off the journeyman wand doesn't do +damage like the apprentice! I've been fishing for it as the random prop but nothing so far.
Ya! No prob ! ;)
Does that mean that the difference between a quick Wand and a slow one handed hammer (or something) is insignificant, or is it balanced due to the benefits of proc fishing vs taking out that one big scarey guy (unique or what have you) 1-2 'meteors' sooner on top of not having to stand for a full X.Y seconds casting?


Some things will depend a bunch on procs like
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#iSZlPm!bfU!bZaaZb

which i will be playing a variant of as soon as they drop the Bloody game 8)
OP seems to completely sidestep the issue of slow melee 1h weapon > wand for spell damage. The same problem seems to exist with monks and witch doctors. Why use all this cool unique stuff for your class if it isn't as good as the common junk? Thankfully, virtuoso seems amazing and I don't feel pigeonholed(yet) into using a mace/sword/axe because its so much better like I do in the beta.
I have the opposite concern. If you use 1h weapons you always have the choice of either taking another weapon to maximize dps or switch on a shield if you need resistance.

You can't quite do that if you use a 2h weapon. So I would want them to always have more damage because of that.
Just wondering Bashiok, this all seem fine but what about a 1h weapon vs another 1h weapon with the same dps and different attack speed (or two 2h weapons), won't the slower weapon be much stronger unless the player stacks a lot (A LOT) of +damage in rings and on the off-hand?

Also, this seems a little counter-intuitive, you have to choose your weapon based on what rings you have and you have to choose your build based on what weapon you can get. In my opinion the game design shouldn't merge those two so much. Attack speed shouldn't be something you have to watch out when upgrading weapons, why not make all the weapons have the same attack speed? Make increased attack speed only a part of the skills (like frenzy for the barbarian or rapid fire for the demon hunter) and varying per class and remove it from gear.

Now, now, don't raise the pitchforks. All that I'm saying is that Attack speed it bad design, with too many quirks to be dealt with (by both players and devs). If you see WoW, although it still has attack speed on weapons, once upon a time you HAD to have a 2.6 speed on your off-hand and a 1.7 on your main-hand (or something like that). But these days it's largely irrelevant what your weapon attack speed is.

Now you can raise the pitchforks...
12/23/2011 09:29 AMPosted by Hoffdruid
If you see WoW, although it still has attack speed on weapons, once upon a time you HAD to have a 2.6 speed on your off-hand and a 1.7 on your main-hand (or something like that)


Actually, as of the current game, Rogues still have to have a 2.6 in MH and a 1.4 in OH if you are combat, so while it doesn't hold true to all classes, since only a few duel wield, and even those some times it doesn't matter. But from what I've read, it does matter for Enhance shaman as well as Rogues, and I think Warriors too but I'm not sure about that.

More on topic, nice job bumping an old thread, and I mean that, this was information I hadn't seen before and it made for interesting reading.
In some ways the reply was worse than the original issue. That a faster one hand weapon does more damage, has more versatility, and more side effects than a 2 handed weapon seems much more of an issue then faster same DPS weapons being slightly less resource efficient. No doubt these issues will be dealt with if they become too much of a problem (such as adding 2 extra magic properties to 2 handed weapons), but in the beta and looking at crafted weapon attributes, dual wielding is always much worse then 2 handed weapons in terms of actual damage and especially cost for bards and monks. Looking foreword to see if the higher level magic properties will balance this as suggested.

Something to think about. All procs that end result in damage such as crits, damage effects, resource generation, and even cool down reductions to some degree will still be worse or the same with a slower weapon. Only non damaging procs like slow, stun, and confuse would be consistently better with a faster weapon.

A great way to balance this out and only have to deal with overkill would be to change all cooldowns to be based on weapon speed and all timed effects to be also based on weapon speed. For instance instead of a 10 second cooldown, the cooldown would be 10 seconds / weapon speed. Instead of 210% weapon damage over 3 seconds, it would be 210% weapon damage over 3 seconds / weapon speed. In this way the strength of a slower weapon would make cooldowns longer, but increase the length of the side effects. In this case weapon damage would NOT be weapon DPS, but be the actual weapon damage. Thoughts?
Can we get this post stickied?
This thread is very old. The information may not even be useful anymore.

I actually have the math for AP regeneration and damage for staffs/wands and how certain skills of ours can effect our damage output over a long period of time (10 minutes). The math is based off of ideal conditions. But it allows you to see how being able to cast more signature spells can increase your damage significantly. But as the Blizzard post says this is often not the case.

I think the important section is showing how skills that increase AP regeneration effect your damage output.

It can be found here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4427663538#1

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