magic find imbalanced?

General Discussion
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+1 to op
11/28/2011 04:05 PMPosted by Halloom
So, a thought:<br /><br />Instead of sharing MF for a game, minimize the impact of MF-heavy builds on others' play by establishing a 'minimum Magic Find' level, which kicks in if you have less MF than the highest MF character.<br /><br />This minimum level can be a percentage of the MF of the highest MF'ed character.<br /><br />This way, MF characters lose nothing and contribute uniquely to groups they join (though there's little need for a group to have more than one MF'er).<br /><br />Thoughts?


Still doesn't fix a couple of other fundamental problems w/ MF.

A) You're stuck using sub-optimal gear b/c of all the MF on it. (Oh boy! Tons of extra Attack, Precision, Defense, Attack Speed, etc., but I can't use it b/c there's no MF on it. Boo!)

B) Some classes/builds might have a "gear" advantage. It is easier for them to kill/survive w/ less "power" stats. This allows them to stack MF more efficiently than others, making class balance tougher. This also leads to...

C) Having to use "MF characters" to gear up your "real characters." This assumes you don't want to use the RMAH.

Yeah, multiplayer leeching is one problem. But there are a lot of other problems that come up when you have to choose between MF and power. Balancing that power, across classes, skills, and monsters/game areas is done on a piano wire, if it's even possible. They need to get rid of the competition between MF and power.
[/quote]<br /><br />If he/she feels so penalized. Make a solo game.<br /><br

/>
11/28/2011 02:19 PMPosted by minkus
I'll be building MF. <br /><br />My leeching will be part of the game.
<br /><br />This is why i support vote kick.[/quote]

so....why not take your own advise?
You know, the OP does have a valid argument, I don't see why everyone is flaming him for it.

Right now, I have a dps set for my dh and wizard, both can hit 170-200dps wearing it. However, I am running low on gold and mats after my crafting sprees, so I made another set with around 80% GF and 20% MF. With this other set I am literally getting rich every run, there is no reason not to wear it unless I want to show off my awesomeness one shooting everything. So now I run around on a !@#$ty 30dps wd where my only concern is picking up loots.

Eventually, I think regular pub runs will definitely have a large amount of people stacking nothing but find %, doing inferior dps (like me xD). However, for serious runs or boss fights you can just swap in your dps set and it should be fine. There is also the not implemented votekick, or just private game.
I think gold find is really good. It makes the piles of gold look cooler, and you are guarenteed to get items when you buy them from the AH. Or you could do some trades through he forum for items.
11/28/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Karthorn
<br /><br />If he/she feels so penalized. Make a solo game.<br /><br <br /><br />/>
11/28/2011 02:19 PMPosted by minkus
I'll be building MF. <br /><br />My leeching will be part of the game.
<br /><br />This is why i support vote kick.[/quote]<br /><br />so....why not take your own advise?[/quote]

Because I am doing my part. You will never understand obviously.
More magic find => less power => higher challenges => greater rewards

Make sense to me
11/28/2011 04:15 PMPosted by Sorreal
We are this far in development, this issue was brought up months ago, and you guys are just now acknowledging it? And you haven't even come up with a solution yet? Are you sure this game is coming out in "early" 2012?


what was left out of his statement was "We realize this is an Issue (to some)"

basically it will work out like this if magic find works to good and it is a factor in more items hitting the rmah that they are comfortable with .. they will change how it works.

at the same time if the and Mf crowd does take too booting anyone with to much mf gear .. bliz will address the issue ..but at this point how it will work out over the millions of people who play.. is not known ..and there is no reason to fix an issue that may not be a problem.
There's a bigger problem than how MF is implemented. The only reason to get better items is for PvP, except Blizz has been explicit that PvP will be for the lulz only. There's zero end game content, no goal to build towards (unlike, say, the D2 Median mod), so there's no point in getting loot except to do more dmg to get more loot. After you beat the last boss there's no real reason to continue playing except to do a different build. Just like D2.
11/28/2011 03:12 PMPosted by Omegal
I think a good solution would be an MF average for coop play. add it all together divided by number of players. Although one might see it as reversely penalize the one with the highest then since the ones under him are dragging down the MF average. but at the same time, the ones lower than him are carrying the effective damage of the group so i think it's a balanced solution.


Any "solution" that punishes someone on the team is a detriment to how Diablo has always functioned: Do whatever you want, succeed.

Of course my solution to this problem will be only playing with people I know. (especially in Hardcore)


This is what I always used as my problem-solver. If I was so concerned about someone wearing MF gear "slowing down" or "not contributing to" the party, I made a smaller group with friends, which is frankly the solution to every "group is bad" concern. Development is walking an extremely dangerous line when the influx of YOUMUSTBLANACE people from WoW start to influence someone's play.
i agree with sora ! do not try to hard to balance things to much
that sort of thing is killing wow for me ;/ i have litle to no intrest in the continued qq/balance wars to come with the panda expansion

when mf mechanics are finaly hammered out will there be a dedicated link to adress how mf works <br />i remember playing d2 and one of the bigest things people talked about is how mf worked<br />every one had there own personal theorys about how it worked so details would be great<br />details that could not be argued<br />examples <br />what is the total mf one can reach<br />what is a persons base chance to find items/gear with no mf and how is mf gain added onto<br />the base chance to find gear<br />what items are affected by mf normal/rare/legendary or just magic "blue items"
I did a full clear with a friend.
Him - 98% magic find = 37 blue drops
me - 0% magic find = 47 blue drops 1 yellow drop


This data supports MF being shared, in one way or another, between players in a co-op game.
It's a recognized issue, just not one that has been attacked and a final design solution proposed/implemented.

We have short list of primary design values for Diablo III, and one of them is 'Do no harm to co-op.'

Whatever solution we end up at it cannot compromise the desire to play with others, either through literal disadvantages, to social situations that cause frustrations through griefing, mistrust, people 'pulling their own weight', etc.

Some of that we simply cannot control. It's an online game. You're going to end up in some undesirable situations no matter how hard we try, but we can at least try to minimize them to being inconsequential by ensuring the game mechanics do not allow inherent misuse at a detriment to the co-op experience.


Thank you Bashiok for taking the time to post about this topic. I know it is something that you cannot fully control.

There will be those that will feel that if there is any MF at all in your gear you will get booted or they will leave. Players have a right to team with whoever they want, although such a team, might take longer to find the gear that they want. Where as a team that all members are geared with a balance of MF and good combat stats (damage and defense mitigation).

Since this thread got some notice, I want to ask you a question if you do not mind Bashiok. I have an idea that just might work with MF. You can two caps, one a soft cap. Hitting the soft cap will not decrease your combat effectiveness to the point where you would not be able to kill the mobs. But the closer you get to the hard cap, you combat effectiveness would drop. Also you could even have a diminished returns after passing the soft cap.

Something similar to ED (enhancement diversification) is in City of Heroes. Where stacking MF pass the soft cap will not greatly enhance you MF ability. In City of Heroes, after you reach a certain % of a stat, the amount of % boost from that enhancement drops. Basically any more than three of the following enhancements, Invention Origin, Single Origin, Or Hammidon, you will only be getting a 5% boost to that stat instead of 33%+.

I am sure though that the devs will have a sweet spot where you will have a decent MF that will allow me to get enough magic items, both rare and magical, with some legendary. Where I will either find my gear, or I will be able to get my artisans to craft the gear that I am after. Along with having enough gold to buy the items that I do not have from the AH. All of this without suffering a big drop in combat effectiveness.

When I find that sweet spot then, I will team with others for speed farming of inferno to help them find what they are after. After a good run we will see what each other has found and what could be useful to any of my team I will give it to the one that needs it the most.
MF will not be like it was in D2, in D2 you had to sacrifice attack power to get a good MF. Unless you were the sorceress or the barbarian. In D3 it will not be that way, we will not be sacrificing attack power to get a good MF. Blizz has said that many times over.

Also most players will only be MF'ing at certain key points in the game. Like when they are farming hell to get the gear that they need for inferno. Then in inferno to get the best gear for their character.





Hi Johadiandunn,

If what you say is true, can you say that if i wore a immortal king, tal rasha wrappings, or some other high end set item; will they match other MF specific gear, in terms of MF stats ? Most likely no.

Also you and blizzard say MF gear will not suck stat wise, then will it have the same set item bonuses and stats like immortal king etc ??? No obviously.

So the claim that mf gear won't necessarily be all !@#$ty, may be true to some extent, but i won't be able to pick e.g. immortal king which has better and maybe more relevant dps set bonuses; and instead just choose a decent mf set, but not the stats/set bonuses i want compared to that immortal king set. You see what i am getting at here ?


So you will be forced to choose MF gear all the time (except for hardcore cause it's more important staying alive, especially when 1 death means your gear and character are gone for good)

You do make a valid point that mf is especially more useful for hell mode and i agree. Of course most of the farming will be in Hell mode just because of the higher ilevel gear to be found, that will trumph most things in the other easier difficulty levels.

But still thats not to say, you can't find some good stuff from the lower difficulties, just the drop rate will suck hard.


So even if what you say is true, that MF is only relevant for Hell and above difficulties, then that still does not solve the issue of choosing between MF and DPS optimized gear for hell mode.


Also you said situational, but rare mobs that drop the gear are all over the map. People aren't going to go town, grab mf gear and switch then go back and kill the rare all the time. They'd just simply wear their MF so they are ready at any time.




in the end it all comes down to

PVE = hell mode use MF. Rune with MF gems.

PVP = DPS gear, and runes for abilities specifically for PVP battles.



My solution is simply remove mf stats from gear. Only add MF via socket/gems only. This way you can wear any gear you want, and gem that with MF. This way you can use whatever set item bonuses you want without being penalized to wear a MF specific gear.


*i just copy paste from the other thread since it was off topic over there.
Diablo 3 for players is about

1. completing the game or should i say difficulty levels. Although hardcore will be optional for most people, although i suspect they will still have 1 char at least be a hardcore, most likely a witch doctor or monk since they are harder to kill.

2. achievements. most likely mf isn't needed here. in fact your going to need all your best dps gear to do most of these.

3. PVP. mf isn't needed here. in fact your going to need all your best dps gear to do most of these.

4. loot, loot, loot and more loot. Better loot the merrier. Extra loot you don't need, you melt it down into parts to make more loot via blacksmith etc. Or sell on auction house and make a nice profit. MF is definately a stat you need to optimize your chance for a good loot drop, especially when real money is involved as you can money off of loot.



so for 1 and 2, 3 you just need to wear best gear to complete those. But in order to get good gear, you need to find them, so MF is crucial to achieve 1 and 2. But 4 will trumph 1, 2 and 3 because you can potentially make money selling items, so of course you want MF to increase the odds of finding legendary and rare gear.


It all comes down to loot in the end, and MF makes the drops more likely.

So i don't buy it, when blizzard says MF gear won't spoil the fun of PVE.


If you made MF via socketing gear with gems, you can wear any gear stats and set bonuses you want without feeling bad about your choice. And for PVP, you can go to your NPC and remove the MF gems, and socket your PVP gem instead. And for achievements, likewise, you can opt to switch out MF gems, for stats you need in order to complete achievements.


This solves having to choose between a 50 MF stat gear (with the gear stats and set bonus stats you want), vs 80 MF stat gear (decent stats, but maybe not the one you prefer).



PS: one of those situationals where you won't be needing MF, but more rather your best DPS gear, is for the 2nd and above kills for the same boss, if you are repeating a boss kill.

Most likely that will be help a friend to clear that boss, or to get an achievement.

The first time you kill a boss, you get a chance for rare/legendary loot. After that you don't. Unless of course you go to the next difficulty level and do that boss there. But even then the same rule of loot only for first kill applies.


Thats another thing i don't like :/ but that is probably going off topic regarding MF.
Still doesn't fix a couple of other fundamental problems w/ MF.

A) You're stuck using sub-optimal gear b/c of all the MF on it. (Oh boy! Tons of extra Attack, Precision, Defense, Attack Speed, etc., but I can't use it b/c there's no MF on it. Boo!)

B) Some classes/builds might have a "gear" advantage. It is easier for them to kill/survive w/ less "power" stats. This allows them to stack MF more efficiently than others, making class balance tougher. This also leads to...

C) Having to use "MF characters" to gear up your "real characters." This assumes you don't want to use the RMAH.

Yeah, multiplayer leeching is one problem. But there are a lot of other problems that come up when you have to choose between MF and power. Balancing that power, across classes, skills, and monsters/game areas is done on a piano wire, if it's even possible. They need to get rid of the competition between MF and power.


All good points. MF itself, while pretty iconic to Diablo, seems to get in the way of enjoying the magic that you actually do find!
Suggestion 4: You dump Magic find completely and solve all the problems in one fell swoop.
Problems: People actually build characters to be good, instead of making your character as gimped as you can get away with. People wear their best gear and don't make concessions because they want better drop rates. Nostalgic people afraid of change cry on the forum.


So then just because MF does not improve your combat, it is a useless stat that needs to be removed. Okay then Blizz removes this in a patch and makes all MF and maybe gold find, remember finding more gold does not increase combat. Another useless stat that needs to be removed.

Because inferno will need everyone with perfect builds and gear in order to succeed right? Well I think you do not understand how those stats benefited the players in the past diablo games. Also this is not like MMO's where you must beat x boss before y minutes or the boss becomes enraged and impossible to beat. There are no dps checks, it will not take perfect combat gear to win.

I believe that there can be a sweet spot in D3 for MF and GF (gold find). One where it will not hurt your combat effectiveness one bit.
I see something, that -might- happen.

If someone is stacking magicfind,
maybe they have BETTER GEAR because of it.

Their gear with magicfind on it might be better than your 'full dps' gear because they've been getting better drops, more gold to buy off auction etc as long as it's not stacked foolishly.
(1% magicfind favored over +20% damage etc)

After the same number of hours played, they might outgear you, making the magicfind stacker an asset to any party.
Most if not all magicfind gear adds extra damage.

They'll probably be carrying a kickass set of damage gear for the boss, you carry them a bit, then they carry you through the bossfights.
If the party is churning through monsters just fine with magicfinders in the party, maybe it's a decent tradeoff if they can pull out powerful gear for the boss/hardspots as needed.

I'm speculating though.
Who thinks it's possible that magic/goldfind stackers can be an asset to a party?

Smoother sailing through the bosses, we can ask to see what drops for them, make an offer and get some bonus gear ourselves.
"at the end of the run or before leaving, please link dropped gear, some of us might want to buy/trade for upgrades."

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