magic find imbalanced?

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11/28/2011 07:16 PMPosted by Halloom
All good points. MF itself, while pretty iconic to Diablo, seems to get in the way of enjoying the magic that you actually do find!


This is exactly my point.

And nothing blizzard has shown in their presentations, utubes and comments have proven otherwise.

Yes blizzard can be wrong too, and i believe they are wrong about forcing MF gear down our throats.

I'm not against MF stats, in fact i believe they should add it through Gem/sockets instead.

But forcing us to choose mf stat gear, even if decent, but against stuff like immortal king (which may have mf, but just not as good. But has really good set bonus dps stats however); is really mean ....
11/28/2011 07:04 PMPosted by Moogle
So you will be forced to choose MF gear all the time (except for inferno cause it's more important staying alive, especially when 1 death means your gear and character are gone for good)


So in inferno softcore characters are treated as hardcore characters. I would love to see where a dev made this statement. If that is true then I know that I would not even bother to enter into inferno. All that work wasted because my softcore just became a hardcore character in the blink of an eye.
@TheCulture


You bring up an interesting point about magic item stackers being a role played by 1 or maybe 2 people.

But this then will defeat the whole purpose of individual loot drops from rare mobs. Then it will just create conflict and arguements by the group asking what dropped. Because the person stacked with MF will be basically carrying the group loot by some sort of group loot arrangement.

Thing sort of thing could happen, i am not sure for certain. We just have to see what the damage is, and what sort of norms will occur during the actual play of the game.
So you will be forced to choose MF gear all the time (except for inferno cause it's more important staying alive, especially when 1 death means your gear and character are gone for good)
<br /><br />So in inferno softcore characters are treated as hardcore characters. I would love to see where a dev made this statement. If that is true then I know that I would not even bother to enter into inferno. All that work wasted because my softcore just became a hardcore character in the blink of an eye.
<br /><br />I meant hardcore ....

So why don't you counter those other arguements, rather than focusing on an innocent small mistake like what you pointed out :}
Seriously?

Ok let's get back to basics here. Magic find is a stat that you have that increases the chance of you finding better items. How is this broken? You're implying that Magicfind should be a secondary stat which, in my opnion, would just mess up the game since it's been established for years and i don't see why they would change it.
In D2, you had the decision to stack MF or not.

Even if you had 3 ppl fully geared and 1 MF stacked for the kill in D2, it would be the same hardship killing the boss with 3 ppl fully geared and 1 MF stacked in D3.

I honestly do not see what the fuss is all about, it works much better to OUR advantage, get a ranged class who steps behind full of MF and lives by playing defensivly and you have 3 players destroying hard to get the kills racked up faster.

If you decide to ALL (4) players have MF, well imagine the loot you all will be able to share. Sure, it will be much harder to progress in the higher difficulties but reaping the rewards will be what you will have to find balance with.
Its not about who gets to screw over who, its about who gets to HELP who. Some people prefer to stack MF, some people prefer GF and some prefer all out Pure Damage.

Its up to you to make friends within the community and form alliances and use what you have at hand.

Share, Co-op, play TOGETHER. Unite.

That is my honest opinion.
Just because something has been established for a long period does not make it right.

My country has an internal security act for ages, and they've been locking up political oppossition at a whim. Does it make it right since this policy has been around for ages ? No obviously.



What is so great about having MF appended directly to the gear itself ? it's like haloom pointed out, you don't get to enjoy the good gear your find, because you are forced to use mf all the time or lose out on finding more gear, which is one of the main points of this game. This then spoils the fun of pve by just focusing on wearing your best gear and just downing bosses with your best stuff on.

In the previous page i made specific cases why i said that blizzards claim that mf gear won't such compared to e.g. immortal king. I would love if bashiok or someone from blizz could answer regarding that sort of comparison :X
11/28/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Moogle
he person stacked with MF will be basically carrying the group loot by some sort of group loot arrangement


Aye, I do see a problem with that.

Maybe a casual thing,(supported by the game)
where magicfinders (& the entire party) could mark items in their pack as 'for sale or trade' and at the end of the run, players would have the option of checking what's available, making offers, accepting or declining a proposed item swap etc

All done impersonally at the end of the session, or within a few minutes of leaving a game.

A streamlined way of trading/swapping for gear that dropped during your playthrough. Like the auctionhouse but no fees.

Those who stack magicfind could get some quick coin, or trade for something they want that dropped from the wizard in the party.
An automated interface/system would be ideal, saves a lot of time & players pestering each other to see what's been dropped so far.

Having extra magicfind stackers in a group means that at the end, you'll have a larger selection of gear to buy/barter for.
Usually getting it cheaper than the auctionhouse.


Players can still keep loot from unique mobs, but if they want to there's the option of marking it as 'for sale/barter' in the hopes of getting quick gold/upgrades.







Think of this complex problem along the lines of the classic Gordian Knot problem.

Remove MF from the game completely, Diablo 3 will be much better off for it. There is no good solution to MF being in group games, it will just cause hate and discontent no matter what Blizzard does.
stupid question here.... can you drop items you loot to simply give to others in game?
11/28/2011 02:06 PMPosted by Bashiok
It's a recognized issue, just not one that has been attacked and a final design solution proposed/implemented.<br /><br />We have short list of primary design values for Diablo III, and one of them is 'Do no harm to co-op.'<br /><br />Whatever solution we end up at it cannot compromise the desire to play with others, either through literal disadvantages, to social situations that cause frustrations through griefing, mistrust, people 'pulling their own weight', etc.<br /><br />Some of that we simply cannot control. It's an online game. You're going to end up in some undesirable situations no matter how hard we try, but we can at least try to minimize them to being inconsequential by ensuring the game mechanics do not allow inherent misuse at a detriment to the co-op experience.

Awesome. I'm glad you guys are looking at it.

What problems does MF cause? Well, a heap of rifts in co-op gameplay. We all know the arguments.

What does MF give to the game? Well, put it this way. If the devs quietly turned off the algorithm that calculates MF, who would notice? No one. I've heard of people with heaps of MF in Diablo 2 who say that got squat for their efforts.

As a result: It causes rifts in groups and contributes nothing noticebly positive to the game.

Again, I'm glad you guys are looking into it. If you decide to keep MF, I'd be very interested in why. I understand the game is about looting, but not being able to improve you ability to loot beyond killing stuff faster wont ruin that part of the game. Hell, it might actually improve the killing stuff part of the game because that will be the only way for players to get good loot.
11/28/2011 07:44 PMPosted by Moogle
What is so great about having MF appended directly to the gear itself ? it's like haloom pointed out, you don't get to enjoy the good gear your find, because you are forced to use mf all the time or lose out on finding more gear


...I agree completely!

I'd rather have magicfind attached to certain runes
(an extra 'magicfind' rune etc)
Then I'd be able to fully enjoy my best gear, without thinking of the drops I'm missing out on.

It's already in the game, would just need to be added to wizard, witchdoctor and monk.

Already in game:
Goldfind weasel for Demonhunter
Barbarian runes for magicfind

or have magicfind be in addition to every other stat on an item, not taking away from anything.

e.g.
Sword has 3 random properties that can't be magicfind.
Because every item gets a chance at a ranom magicfind % having magicfind on gear never reduces the damage it could have done without it.



Make magicfind a sought after bonus to all gear.
It'll prolong the itemsearch (and the life of the game slightly)
"sword of awesome with best stats...but 56% magicfind out of a potential 80%. I can find better!"

TLDR
If magicfind is a 'once in a blue moon' bonus stat to all gear,
there's no disadvantage to have it.

It's ALWAYS a good thing to see and you want it as high as possible.
Only rarely will it pop up on gear, making it much harder to get a 'perfect' Windforce.

11/27/2011 08:05 PMPosted by Wogrim
Yes MF is broken, as it always has been (but in a different way than Diablo 2). I think Blizz likes the general concept (less firepower more loot) too much to scrap it.


If only more idiots would realize this. MF causes anti-social behavior, plain and simple. There is no way to reconcile it with the design goals of encouraging public grouping, and ultimately it causes more problems than it solves.

They should have left it as a "special" stat that only was in competition with +exp or gold find. That way no one is sacrificing kill speed for loot, that's the only way to preserve mf without completely screwing up the dynamic of the game.

Incentivizing people to put on the most MF possible, and then join a game where people are effectively killing to just do nothing and pick up loot is a terrible disincentive. In fact, it's a moral hazard of sorts, which generally turn into serious economic problems.

The incentive is a toxic one, and everyone can harp on the high end equipment with great stats AND magic find, but that stuff will still be inferior to Magic Find Free gear, in general, and will end up still less effective than other gear. Most critically, though, it will encourage people using the highest MF blues, whose only stat is MF. Even moreso if they have a higher MF than the legendary items. This will be a stark sacrifice.

It worked out in D2, sort of, because of the clickfest (hello pickit) and because the killing blow person's MF was the only one applied. Since neither of those apply here . . . And even further, it was ok in D2 because people with the best gear had not only the most MF, but also could essentially solo 8 player games in hell difficulty without too much trouble. We don't know if that will be the case in D3, but I find it doubtful.
They should have left it as a "special" stat that only was in competition with +exp or gold find. That way no one is sacrificing kill speed for loot


Exactly.

I'd be cool with that, very cool.
Might solve the 'privacy concerns' some players are having regarding
'gear inspection'.
With no 'terrible magicfind gear' there's not much reason to fear someone inspecting you. Also no reason to be suspicious of others "are they screwing me over by stacking magicfind?" etc

It'll bring us closer as a community,
by removing the magicfind wedge that's currently there.
I can see no good reason for keeping it in competition with bread&butter stats.
Why do people still complain about this?

Surely everyone has at least 3 mates who will play Diablo 3...party with them and the problem is solved. If however you don't have 3 mates and you do happen to group with someone whose company/contribution/gear you don't appreciate, leave the group and find another.

Sheesh, it’s not like the Blizzard Gods hold a gun to your left nut and force you to stay in the current group.
you can wear mf gear without sacrificing damage or defensive ability
Simple fix is take the person in the group with the highest MF and give everyone that number.

Person 1 has 150 MF
Person 2 has 100 MF
Person 3 has 0 MF
Person 4 has 149 MF

Everyone in the group gets put at 150 MF.
Now people with less MF can put on dps gear and maximize damage while the person with all the MF can play more of a crowd control with some dps support.

Now people can stack MF if that's what they want. While everyone in the group can benefit from it. And with some friendly communication people with less MF can swap in some damage gear. Because if inferno is as hard as they say its going to be ul want the most damage and versatility you can get and let that 4th person help out with the MF and some support with the hudge variety of skills at our disposal.
11/28/2011 07:33 PMPosted by Moogle
<br /><br />So in inferno softcore characters are treated as hardcore characters. I would love to see where a dev made this statement. If that is true then I know that I would not even bother to enter into inferno. All that work wasted because my softcore just became a hardcore character in the blink of an eye.
<br /><br />I meant hardcore ....<br /><br />So why don't you counter those other arguments, rather than focusing on an innocent small mistake like what you pointed out :}


I remember the devs saying that you will not have to sacrifice combat stats to have MF. I think they will be right. Meaning their will be a sweet spot for MF, without sacrificing combat effectiveness. I believe someone said that in D2 around 350-400 MF was the cut off, anything more than that you really did not see a big improvement in MF. Also the amount of power you had to sacrifice to get it was not really worth it according to what I have heard.

I believe that some players will try different combinations of MF, in group settings to see what works and what does not work for them. When they find the best MF setup where they can have good killing speed and still get good drops. Then they will keep farming the inferno until they get what they want.

I know that I have my own ideas that I will be trying when D3 releases. Which I will be trying in private games.
Awesome. I'm glad you guys are looking at it.

What problems does MF cause? Well, a heap of rifts in co-op gameplay. We all know the arguments.

What does MF give to the game? Well, put it this way. If the devs quietly turned off the algorithm that calculates MF, who would notice? No one. I've heard of people with heaps of MF in Diablo 2 who say that got squat for their efforts.

As a result: It causes rifts in groups and contributes nothing noticebly positive to the game.

Again, I'm glad you guys are looking into it. If you decide to keep MF, I'd be very interested in why. I understand the game is about looting, but not being able to improve you ability to loot beyond killing stuff faster wont ruin that part of the game. Hell, it might actually improve the killing stuff part of the game because that will be the only way for players to get good loot.


It is probably there because it increases the low drop rate of magical, rare and the rest. With MF they can tune the drop rate of any item to match their target for that item. They know that if players max mf then they are not going to be as strong in combat as they would if there were to go with better stats but a low MF.

Our task is to find the sweet spot in having MF and killing speed.
I'd like a tossup between magicfind and survivability.

More magicfind= less health etc
but not less damage done in any way.
I think this might make stacking full magicfind gear less of an issue to a party if you were skilled enough to stay alive, even though you had lower health due to magicfind.

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