From a Diablo II VETERAN (Rant it up)

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Yes I do, as opposed to finding the first level I got in Diablo 2 and opening that wonderful skill page up...and finding it immediately fun. Crazy, I know!


Use that pitiful excuse of a brain that's rattling around your noggin and attempt to deduce the absurdity of your statements. It'll probably take a while, but I'm patient.


/yawn

I'm a smart dude; petty insults don't hurt my feelings.
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You sure are acting like some authority, calling everyone who disagrees with you delusional and pretending your opinions (which is exactly what they are) somehow are infallible logic.

And yes, I can definitely get a good feel for the skill system in what they have provided us, and I can definitely give my feedback as VALID feedback based on those impressions.


Then do it. Why are you highjacking a thread with trolling instead of coming up with valid arguments. I DONT LIKE IT BE-CUZ IT'S NOT AS FUN AS DIABLO II is not a valid argument. You also forget how I praise Diablo II at multiple turns, and then point out that while it was a good game, it's time to realize how we can improve upon the systems, which is exactly what they've done.


I already did...I posted a feedback thread with a lot of my impressions...which included my criticism of the new skill system and why I found it boring. As I play more, I will continue to post impressions and maybe even go back revise old ones.

The reason why I responded to this thread is because I thought it was really crazy that you were throwing yourself around like a 500lb baby gorilla, meanwhile all you have is your own personal opinion...just like everyone else.
tldr;

D2 was awesome and I expect the same from D3.


Then do it. Why are you highjacking a thread with trolling instead of coming up with valid arguments. I DONT LIKE IT BE-CUZ IT'S NOT AS FUN AS DIABLO II is not a valid argument. You also forget how I praise Diablo II at multiple turns, and then point out that while it was a good game, it's time to realize how we can improve upon the systems, which is exactly what they've done.


I already did...I posted a feedback thread with a lot of my impressions...which included my criticism of the new skill system and why I found it boring.

The reason why I responded to this thread is because I thought it was really crazy that you were throwing yourself around like a 500lb baby gorilla, meanwhile all you have is your own personal opinion...just like everyone else.


Cool story bro. Sounds like someone is mad because I can reason my way past his nostalgia. Still waiting for you to say something intelligent. Your trolling is getting supah old.
02/02/2012 10:20 AMPosted by D3BETA
I'm finding D3's leveling boring and nowhere as fun as D2's (and many other ARPG's as well). I don't agree with your reasoning for the reasons laid out a million times before, and that doesn't make me delusional.


Please expound on how D2's leveling was fun. If you were to try to compare D2 to the beta then it would be like playing through act 1 until you rescue cain. Then your done. So how is the first 13 levels of D2 fun, if thats all you would have access too.
Uh huh...I'm mad yet you are getting bent out of shape and resorting to insults.

No trolling here, just the truth. And the truth is you just have your opinion, and all the other people who disagree with it are not delusional (much to your own chagrin).

And did I mention that 90% of those good sklils are acquired at either 24 or 30? The barbarian is basically twiddling his thumbs until frenzy, concentration, or whirlwind (back in classic at least, it blows now). The Sorc's usefulness goes up about 2343294872049823% the moment you get FO, Blizzard, or Chain Lightning. So you're just supposed to trudge through the first 23 levels of the game? Sounds well spread out.


I do agree that this was a problem. I also agree with a lot of what you say. However, I don't really understand how you can find this particular method to be better than alternatives. If they gave you stat increases based on the weapons you choose to use and allowed your character to level up the ability to use them, and do damage, etc. I would find that to be a huge improvement over the current D3 system. Also, I am hoping that Blizzard is only using the current leveling system to allow beta users to quickly get through the beta so that they won't have to grind so much and can find problems for them. I loved D2, however, I loved it 7 years ago when I was playing it a lot. I have moved on to other games. D2 still holds a nice warm place in my heart. But, I tried going back recently and got bored with it (mostly because I had played it so much in the past and had to start over again). However, I DID like that you actually felt like the regular enemies could kill you, and that you ran out of mana. I have yet to run out of mana (I'm a WD), or even use a potion in D3 (I'm only level 10, so that may have something to do with it). I have never run from an enemy, and I have taken out armies of undead. While it may be true that it's nice to get abilities that you feel like you can use throughout the whole game right away, I can't help but shake the feeling that it will lead to a dull game. After all, what is there to look forward to if you are completely happy with your character right off the bat? I know that I have been using the same spells for roughly 7 levels now, and I don't see that changing much in the next 10, or so... This actually isn't much different than D2 in that context. I would have probably just crammed a ton of points into these very skills had then existed and stayed with the skills for a long while. It will be interesting to see how the Blizzard team decides to manage the full game's leveling system when it comes out. I have a feeling that we are only getting a very high level version of what is to come.
02/02/2012 10:38 AMPosted by dirtydudits
I'm finding D3's leveling boring and nowhere as fun as D2's (and many other ARPG's as well). I don't agree with your reasoning for the reasons laid out a million times before, and that doesn't make me delusional.


Please expound on how D2's leveling was fun. If you were to try to compare D2 to the beta then it would be like playing through act 1 until you rescue cain. Then your done. So how is the first 13 levels of D2 fun, if thats all you would have access too.


Shh... Renevent is busy trying to remove all logic from this thread. Don't get in his way, I wanna see if he can do it.

But yeah, Diablo III's beta is only comparable to the extent of Diablo II content that you described, and anyone who thinks that is more fun... well, just my opinion renevent, but you'd have to be high or insane to say that.
It's the first THIRD of the FIRST act and the FIRST of FOUR difficulties?
Fixed it for you so it'd flow more smoothly. :)

Good post!
02/02/2012 10:38 AMPosted by dirtydudits
I'm finding D3's leveling boring and nowhere as fun as D2's (and many other ARPG's as well). I don't agree with your reasoning for the reasons laid out a million times before, and that doesn't make me delusional.


Please expound on how D2's leveling was fun. If you were to try to compare D2 to the beta then it would be like playing through act 1 until you rescue cain. Then your done. So how is the first 13 levels of D2 fun, if thats all you would have access too.


Easy, planning your build and deciding on where to invest your points. Which trees to go down, which attributes to focus on. Just the process of leveling up was much more involved. In D3 MAYBE you unlock a skill, in D2 you had attributes to assign as well as decisions to make on where to invest your next point.

That was fun for me, at least more fun that leveling up in D3. You can disagree all you want, doesn't change the fact that for many people the new system just isn't as engaging as the old one.
Uh huh...I'm mad yet you are getting bent out of shape and resorting to insults.

No trolling here, just the truth. And the truth is you just have your opinion, and all the other people who disagree with it are not delusional (much to your own chagrin).


Read the replies bro. I've got 10 people saying "thank you for saying this" for everyone one of you. It needed to be said and I said it. Just because I didn't use the words "I think" before every sentence, doesn't mean it wasn't posted as a purely opinion post. You just can't seem to point out anything. I'm still waiting for you to come up with some kind of logical retort to ANYTHING I said, so you yeah, you're trolling. Saying the same thing over and over and over again in replies is spam or trolling by very definition. Soz :\
02/02/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Tavus


Please expound on how D2's leveling was fun. If you were to try to compare D2 to the beta then it would be like playing through act 1 until you rescue cain. Then your done. So how is the first 13 levels of D2 fun, if thats all you would have access too.


Shh... Renevent is busy trying to remove all logic from this thread. Don't get in his way, I wanna see if he can do it.

But yeah, Diablo III's beta is only comparable to the extent of Diablo II content that you described, and anyone who thinks that is more fun... well, just my opinion renevent, but you'd have to be high or insane to say that.


I'm neither...perfectly sane and a fully functional adult who makes a good living.
02/02/2012 10:42 AMPosted by D3BETA


Please expound on how D2's leveling was fun. If you were to try to compare D2 to the beta then it would be like playing through act 1 until you rescue cain. Then your done. So how is the first 13 levels of D2 fun, if thats all you would have access too.


Easy, planning your build and deciding on where to invest your points. Which trees to go down, which attributes to focus on. Just the process of leveling up was much more involved. In D3 MAYBE you unlock a skill, in D2 you had attributes to assign as well as decisions to make on where to invest your next point.

That was fun for me, at least more fun that leveling up in D3. You can disagree all you want, doesn't change the fact that for many people the new system just isn't as engaging as the old one.


And all of that was pretty much determined at level 1. Then it's just a grind.

I'm having fun just thinkin about it!

Diablo 2 was in a constant state of broken regardless of how fun it was.
Uh huh...I'm mad yet you are getting bent out of shape and resorting to insults.

No trolling here, just the truth. And the truth is you just have your opinion, and all the other people who disagree with it are not delusional (much to your own chagrin).


Read the replies bro. I've got 10 people saying "thank you for saying this" for everyone one of you. It needed to be said and I said it. Just because I didn't use the words "I think" before every sentence, doesn't mean it wasn't posted as a purely opinion post. You just can't seem to point out anything. I'm still waiting for you to come up with some kind of logical retort to ANYTHING I said, so you yeah, you're trolling. Saying the same thing over and over and over again in replies is spam or trolling by very definition. Soz :\


Great, and obviously lots of people disagree as well otherwise what exactly is this thread responding to?

LOL!
Every class uses the SAME resource system. 15 seconds after you get your first skill for the barbarian you're out of mana.


I don,think anyone has anything vs the resources, it's the skill system that bother a lot of ppl... The new ressources increase replay-ability cause if you play 2 char, you rediscovering part of the game. I'll probably talk a lot about replay-ability here, since I honestly believe that it was a very strong point in DII. But what about playing 2 different sorc? No need anymore, just switch a round a few icon, you are a new char!!!Some might enjoy, I think it's the easy way out of balancing a more complex skill system. It does not matter is magic missile sucks, they have 3 other skills they can use.

02/02/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Tavus
Next I'd point out that there's maybe 1-2 useful offensive skills for each class out of the 3 entire trees that they have.

True but it could have been balanced otherwise. Why had the whole poison necro had to be utterly useless? One way to improve on D2 skills would have been more useful skills in the trees to choose from. Instead, they decided to scrap it, I believe it will hurt replay-ability most of all.

02/02/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Tavus
The barbarian is basically twiddling his thumbs until frenzy, concentration, or whirlwind

Note so much with the synergies, it made dumping points into early skills usefull. It comes back to, was scrapping the skill trees a better option then fixing it? Would'nt Diablo II be a hundred time more awesome if every tree did'nt only get you through normal, but nightmare and hell as well? Now you're gonna say :"it doesn't matter cause one skill tree will end up being better." Same is gonna happen here, one skill-set is gonna end up being better and the rest are gonna be barely used.... Only thing you loose, is consequence of choosing one instead of the other.

In Dii, i rolled a cookie cutter(or 4) to farm. And then i had fun toying with builds on a million other char that I groomed like pets. In D3, i'll get my cookie cutter, switch a round a few skills, have fun for an hour, realize it's sub-par, and go back. In itself, it's not bad, but it hurt replay value.

Now let's talk about Diablo III. Every class in the game either starts with a skill, or gets one within the first 5 levels that I can see myself using for their entire existence.

That'S part of the problem, especially for min max lovers. One of those skills will come out ahead, making the other useless.

02/02/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Tavus
There is only two kinds of Diablo II players - players that know how to distribute stats, and players that don't.

There are also player that enjoyed beating the game on normal with a totaly buffoon firebrand sorc( you don'T need the same stats for such a delicate build :p) ! But, I have to agree with you, stats are not so important anyway, it's just a number.

but I can tell you right now that it's not very debatable that the mere shred of the skills systems we're able to see right now are already way beyond the design quality of the entire scope of Diablo II. There's really no other way to see that, or say it.
So true, yet, after you played with 4 char enough, there wont be any reason to keep playing, re-rolling or whatever. That's a flaw, of course, you can switch around skills and runes, but it's so easy to do it you can try 4 play-styles in an afternoon.

And as to the lame quests? I'm sorry, but the only quests anyone ever does in Diablo II are the ones that gives rewards. No one cares about the lore, no one goes out of their way to do anything that doesn't specifically give them something that they want... I'm sorry but they're lame, and 9 out of 10 Diablo II players skip the entire 3rd act :\ Tell me that's not lame with a straight face.

IMO, Diablo II was sooooooooo off atmosphere wise, it'S a wonder ppl played it so much. What made Diablo II so popular was the skills, not to much choice, but just enough to make you appreciate it. Here, barely any consequential choices since you can switch playstyle at will.

Edit : I still enjoyed myself with the beta, i just think this skill system will hurt replay value more then anything.


Easy, planning your build and deciding on where to invest your points. Which trees to go down, which attributes to focus on. Just the process of leveling up was much more involved. In D3 MAYBE you unlock a skill, in D2 you had attributes to assign as well as decisions to make on where to invest your next point.

That was fun for me, at least more fun that leveling up in D3. You can disagree all you want, doesn't change the fact that for many people the new system just isn't as engaging as the old one.


And all of that was pretty much determined at level 1. Then it's just a grind.

I'm having fun just thinkin about it!

Diablo 2 was in a constant state of broken regardless of how fun it was.


Not for me, I leveled many characters many different ways. Sometimes planned out all prior, sometimes on the fly.

And yes, it was fun.


Shh... Renevent is busy trying to remove all logic from this thread. Don't get in his way, I wanna see if he can do it.

But yeah, Diablo III's beta is only comparable to the extent of Diablo II content that you described, and anyone who thinks that is more fun... well, just my opinion renevent, but you'd have to be high or insane to say that.


I'm neither...perfectly sane and a fully functional adult who makes a good living.


You are neither perfectly sane nor a fully functional adult?
Why admit this? :P (sorry, couldn't help it, that's how i read your post the first time)
02/02/2012 10:41 AMPosted by D3BETA
And did I mention that 90% of those good sklils are acquired at either 24 or 30? The barbarian is basically twiddling his thumbs until frenzy, concentration, or whirlwind (back in classic at least, it blows now). The Sorc's usefulness goes up about 2343294872049823% the moment you get FO, Blizzard, or Chain Lightning. So you're just supposed to trudge through the first 23 levels of the game? Sounds well spread out.


I do agree that this was a problem. I also agree with a lot of what you say. However, I don't really understand how you can find this particular method to be better than alternatives. If they gave you stat increases based on the weapons you choose to use and allowed your character to level up the ability to use them, and do damage, etc. I would find that to be a huge improvement over the current D3 system. Also, I am hoping that Blizzard is only using the current leveling system to allow beta users to quickly get through the beta so that they won't have to grind so much and can find problems for them. I loved D2, however, I loved it 7 years ago when I was playing it a lot. I have moved on to other games. D2 still holds a nice warm place in my heart. But, I tried going back recently and got bored with it (mostly because I had played it so much in the past and had to start over again). However, I DID like that you actually felt like the regular enemies could kill you, and that you ran out of mana. I have yet to run out of mana (I'm a WD), or even use a potion in D3 (I'm only level 10, so that may have something to do with it). I have never run from an enemy, and I have taken out armies of undead. While it may be true that it's nice to get abilities that you feel like you can use throughout the whole game right away, I can't help but shake the feeling that it will lead to a dull game. After all, what is there to look forward to if you are completely happy with your character right off the bat? I know that I have been using the same spells for roughly 7 levels now, and I don't see that changing much in the next 10, or so... This actually isn't much different than D2 in that context. I would have probably just crammed a ton of points into these very skills had then existed and stayed with the skills for a long while. It will be interesting to see how the Blizzard team decides to manage the full game's leveling system when it comes out. I have a feeling that we are only getting a very high level version of what is to come.


1. Keep in mind the scope of the Diablo III beta.
2. How is a poor resource management system in any way fun, or good design? A Sorceress in Diablo II had 0 mana management skills available to her. Sure you can say "warmth" but the mana regen system was so archaic that even that didn't help much until you have quite a bit of mana going on. You can easily spam a WD skill until you're out of mana, but the point is, it regenerates shortly thereafter. Every class in Diablo II either rocked mana pots for the first 30 levels, or just used normal attacks. That's lame, and it's super lame paired with how awful the skills were unless you pumped them, which was totally pointless because that left you with no skills for the things you were really supposed to be investing them in. So either you a. had a bad build with points in useless places, or you b. had a good build and suffered from poor skill design until you hit level ~30. That's not choice, that's the illusion of choice. Do it this way or suck? How is that a choice?
3.Normal enemies can kill you in Diablo III too, and in hell and inferno, I can guarantee you that they will.


I'm neither...perfectly sane and a fully functional adult who makes a good living.


You are neither perfectly sane nor a fully functional adult?
Why admit this? :P (sorry, couldn't help it, that's how i read your post the first time)


It's alright lol...now that I read over it again it does sound like I said that heh.
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And all of that was pretty much determined at level 1. Then it's just a grind.

I'm having fun just thinkin about it!

Diablo 2 was in a constant state of broken regardless of how fun it was.


Not for me, I leveled many characters many different ways. Sometimes planned out all prior, sometimes on the fly.

And yes, it was fun.


Nothing is stopping you from using whatever build you want now.

What exactly about having a point permanently locked into something (ignoring the fact they added respecing) is fun or exciting? It's pretty superficial if you ask me.

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