"Tanking"

Barbarian
Paragraphing! Holy lord almighty!
You know Cdr, you're not going to convince evades. He and the other people who think dedicating healing and tanking will be a viable late game strat will have to learn by themselves that it won't work.

I've been trying to dissuate people from that since this forums have opened and people haven't been convinced at all. Even when I have posted videos from the devs themselves saying the game's not designed to support roles. And what's worse is that people who keep arguing about tanking never really done it to understand what it a "real tank" role entails. The mechanics aren't there, the game combat system, the focus on controlling and mitigating incoming damage, etc.... Tanking is so much more, and yet people still think it'll be viable with all the evidence against it.

I'm not trying to sound elitist or a douche and if I'm being, I apologize to anyone in this who might be offended but most of the people in this thread and others amongst these forums have a just a slightly notion to what tanking truly is. Anyway if you guys want to keep trying all the power, but know that it'll not work in inferno. In a group of 4 one person will not be able to exert full control over all the monster they're fighting.
You know Cdr, you're not going to convince evades. He and the other people who think dedicating healing and tanking will be a viable late game strat will have to learn by themselves that it won't work.

I've been trying to dissuate people from that since this forums have opened and people haven't been convinced at all. Even when I have posted videos from the devs themselves saying the game's not designed to support roles. And what's worse is that people who keep arguing about tanking never really done it to understand what it a "real tank" role entails. The mechanics aren't there, the game combat system, the focus on controlling and mitigating incoming damage, etc.... Tanking is so much more, and yet people still think it'll be viable with all the evidence against it.

I'm not trying to sound elitist or a douche and if I'm being, I apologize to anyone in this who might be offended but most of the people in this thread and others amongst these forums have a just a slightly notion to what tanking truly is. Anyway if you guys want to keep trying all the power, but know that it'll not work in inferno. In a group of 4 one person will not be able to exert full control over all the monster they're fighting.


Ive successfully tanked in several several games. I know what a tank is. The mechanics, mitigation of damage and control is there. All the evidence points towards this being a '' real '' tank lol. Whatever both of your definitions of what a tank is must be complete garbage because a tank is a tank. This is one. It isnt a role, your not required to fill a role. But you can be a tank and make a tank a build designed to do nothing but tank and it will mainly be successful in inferno and almost pointless to do it in anything oither than inferno. Maybe hell.

Your right, with 4 people one person wont be taking all the damage with no help. he will have help. He will be CC'ing while the others are CC'ing, He will be getting heals and healing himself, He will need to be skilled since this is still inferno and decently smart and know when to step back and kite for a few seconds since this game allows a tank to use that strategy to recover and get right back in to tank. You make it sound like the other people are just off watching tv afk in a corner. Try actually reading my lazily typed wall of spam before posting something against it as it clearly states everything that a tank does and is. Basically the only couple of differences here is that D3 allows for a tank to retreat to recover and get back in without everyone immediately getting slaughtered ( if he isnt skilled nough and or geared enough / his team is crap ), theres less direct aggro / taunting abilities since most games have a few of them but thats replaced by the tank having more CC abilities like aoe stuns aoe slows and AoE's that draw enemies towards the tank, theres less abilities in general. There are sooo many ways to go about doing it and since we have soo many choices of tanking things to grab. Vit, dodge, blocking, armor, passives that give alot more armor.. how can you seriously sit there and say you cant make a real tank aswell as state it wouldnt be beneficial to have a tank in inferno. I honeslty dont understand how either of you can come to the conclusion of that and state that when people have a HUUUUGE variety of choices of everything to go with, that they cant make and be whatever they want to be and that if they choose to be that, it cant be successful. Your saying the game has options than what it actually has.

This game is incredible and you making it sound any less amazing than it is, is useless. Even if your trying to be helpful with your incorrect statements. Either way, if your so confident, lets see what happens when groups of people are entering inferno for the first time. We will have to wait and see.
I think people acting ultrasensitively to terms popularized ten times greater than their previous use by World of Warcraft are hipsters that are holding back modern theorycrafting discussion by suggesting that internet terminology has no malleability or range of use.

So like, stop fighting a very pointless fight.

Try actually reading my lazily typed wall of spam before posting something against it ...


Hahahahaha! Hahahahaa!

Oh lord that is AWESOME. Whew! You just made my day. :)

Try actually reading my lazily typed wall of spam before posting something against it ...


Hahahahaha! Hahahahaa!

Oh lord that is AWESOME. Whew! You just made my day. :)


Well im glad i could do that for you. I feel special :)
I'm not posting agains "tanking". I'm saying like D2 you won't be able to succesfuly do it. You won't be able hold sway of all the monster in the screen and take control of their movements pattern as well as mitigating damage effectively and doing damage (because doing damage is your responsability as well). The nature of the combat it's to hectic and chaotic for one person to exert control of everything in the screen, or act as a meat shield. If you're not being able to do it 100% then I'm sry you're not a tank.

That's why all members a group must have cc and control abilitys in their builds. It's as simple as that. I'm not trying to dissuate you or anyother poster at all. Everyone is free to do as they please and should. And if you find yourself having fun, that's all the better. But having a build that's only concern on control all the monsters while trying to mitigate or "soak" most of the incoming damage will not be a viable option.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Zd7YD3uuM - Blizzcon 2011 Diablo Panel - Difficulties.

Start watching at 7:00 - there are no roles. And by your definitions any class can tank in D3. Yet what I mostly see across the 5 classes boards is tanks builds in here and healers in the monk forum.

I think people acting ultrasensitively to terms popularized ten times greater than their previous use by World of Warcraft are hipsters that are holding back modern theorycrafting discussion by suggesting that internet terminology has no malleability or range of use.

So like, stop fighting a very pointless fight.


I was trying to convince Cdr of stoping because people won't actually yield until they've tested and seen by themselves that tanking is not viable...

You want some theorycrafting hehe... here you go:
http://www.armadagaming.com/showthread.php?459-Armor-Resistances-and-Effective-Health
The 'healer' builds are the ones that really get me. It -is- possible to have 'Tank' builds that work in D2 and D3 but it is a bit different. The definition is more 'Someone who can take a lot of damage while controlling enemies or making them more of a target.'

In D2 I had a werewolf build that focused heavily on life stealing and getting as much defense as possible. He hit a lot of things very very very fast. They tended to bunch up around him and that made them very easy targets for AOEs or for ranged characters to take out. Did it make it impossible for enemies to peel off of him or to just go for the others entirely? No. But it helped controlled the field and he 'tanked' the damage very nicely.

So... tank, meatshield, range-impaired survivalist, or 'they who like to be group hugged by demonic hordes'. It is all a similar concept. It's just semantics.

It reminds me a lot of Guild Wars 2. The roles don't exist anymore but you can still have tanky and tankish type roles that are 'tanks'. However it evolves the term much like D3, and in a similar way that D2 had already done.

The term Tank just means something with heavy defensive capabilities that is mobile and has a substantial offensive impact. And it is used to control the field of battle in some way. It doesn't mean it has to force foes to fight it.
While I agree with you about what a character can do regarding controlling the battlefield, the issue is more than just semantics. The term 'tank' does not translate well into this game. Refering to someone as the tank provides the wrong impression.

Earlier in this thread there was mention of "..one tank and three dps.." if you were to look at that phrase outside of the game context you might think "one guy to take the hits, and three squishies to deal the damage" but that wouldn't be very accurate to what is happening.

A more accurate representation might be one person to initiate and the other three to mop up. Control effects will be coming from all sources and each of those people will be responsible for taking care of themselves if an enemy chooses not to attack the initiator.

In fairness when I played league of legends we would refer to characters serving as (a) group tank(s) despite the function not truly existing. But within the game context people understood what that entailed.

When I see posts about people making groups with a 'tank' a 'healer' and two 'dps' I get the impression that that level of clarification has not yet sunk in, and would be horrified if someone kept running over top of our allies trying to breath of heaven instead of hitting things, or having someone join a group with less than half the required health for that difficulty expecting someone to tank the damage for them.
@Evades:

Man, I really want to read your side of this debate...

But then I took an arrow to the knee from your WALL o' TEXT!

Good lord man, I thought I was bad at big posts! I literally was getting a headache from even CONSIDERING reading some of your posts.

Anyway, my $.02. The Holy Trinity won't work in D3. With the exception of Mantra of Healing, every single one of a monks heals require the 'healees' to be nearly in melee range. 24 yards is a TINY AoE, barely 3x melee range, and that's the range of the biggest monk heal other than MoH. Breath of Heaven is only 12 yards... you need to be basically standing on top of an ally to have this effect them.

Any possible tanking will have to be through CC... preferably done by ALL players. The barb has some nice big AoE stuns, this will be effective for this.

Anyone who believes they'll be able to build pure DPS, with no CC or defensive skills likely won't get through NM without dying dozens of times... per Act.

The Holy Trinity of Tank, Heals, DPS just won't work without major game systems changes. There are mobs made in the game that are designed to specifically ignore melee characters and dish damage to ranged DPS(grenadiers and wallers, specifically).

These creatures were created SPECIFICALLY to stop people from trying such team comps.

If you really want to give it a try, go for it. After you fail horribly, come back and tell me about it.

I can't wait to draw nourishment from your tears of fail...
Ladies, please.

What until the game comes out, play it and then come back here when you have a level 50-something/60 class of whatever flavor and then discuss because this is all wasted energy. Everyone's argument is currently valid because no one knows what is and what isn't, it's like theory-crafting with the Demo version. Take a stab, take a guess, but ultimately you just won't know until you get there and see.

So just wait and see.
These "role" topics i keep reading all the over the internet have me LoL'ing out of my chair. seriously. This isnt WoW. The end game boss isnt some part of a raid. Tanking the "trash", and spamming heals on your tank, watching your aggro, CC role, ect....thats all part of WoW. This is D3. Like d2 before it, and d1 before that, this is a Hack N Slash game. Not WoW. Theory crafting "roles" for inferno wont make it like WoW. When the barb dies, and the Dh dies, the Wizard can still survive and be victorious over the remaining enemies; or a witch doctor for that matter. Lol, it dosnt take a "tank" to clear inferno. Theres no need for a healer to "heal" the group to survive.

Get out of the "WoW' mindset, and put on your d2 hats. You'll understand what im talking about. While this isnt d2, the mechanics are roughly the same...nothing like WoW. If you never played D2, or D1 for that matter...well you're in for a rude awakening of what D3 really is.

LOL
Alot of people, including the game's designers/programmers have talked about group compositions in the later difficulties being something that people should really think about. If anyone should know about this matter, I'd like to believe that it's them. While I personally don't believe that it will be AS important as in an MMO like WoW, I do believe it will still make a difference in Diablo 3. I'm not talking about 1 "Tank", 1 "Healer", & 2 "DPS" but I find it hard to imagine 4 different people all playing the same class, even with varying builds clearing Inferno. Not to say it can't or won't be done, it's all speculation at this point since the game won't be out for another 24+ hours.

The other thing people need to think about is that "Tanking" in Diablo 3 is obviously going to be different than Tanking in an MMO like WoW. They are two completely different games that just happen to be made by the same company. I think alot of people are too wrapped up in what they believe a definition of a Tank should be from WoW. Therefore, they can't or don't want to think about using that term to describe a character in Diablo 3. The best analogy I can make is like saying a Veggie Burger can't be called a burger because it doesn't have meat in it. Just because something is different than what you're used to, not normal, or out of the ordinary doesn't mean it can't or doesn't have the right to exist. It's comparable to a hamburger for vegetarians so let them call it a veggie burger.

A Barbarian with a build to taunt enemies, boost life/defense for them & their allies, & take a beating sure as hell sounds like a Tank to me. So just let it be regardless if you believe it's going to be viable or not. Only time & experience can be the judge, jury, & executioner of that. Until then it's all just a bunch of opinions, theories, & guesses.
The first video was pretty old. The barb still had mana and not fury. Not going to bother with the secound video seeing how it was probably pointless. Tanking is going to be necessary to survive inferno.
I just do not think tanking will be viable. From playing just the Beta, there are simply too many mobs and too few control abilities for the Barbarian to be a disignated tank. A tank is only a tank if there is a way for him to make mobs hit him, and only him. D3 does not have an aggro system, so you cannot use that to tank. The Barb also only has a single true taunt ability, and his other utilities are generally outclassed, IMO, by the other classes. Having 1 tank and 4 pure DPS is going to get everyone dead FAST on inferno. Teleporting monsters don't care who they attack, and if one jumps on your DPS he is dead with no escapes. What if a jailor separates the tank? Everyone dies in seconds. What about even Nightmarish, causing the barb to run away for a few seconds? Everyone dies. Everyone has to be balanced with their build if you want to live. The CC needs to be spread across the classes to be effective.

Sure, a Barb can have on taunt, some CC and damage reduction, and in most games that would make him a tank. But in D3, that just isn't the case. Image playing WoW where raid bosses didn't have an aggro system, and just attacked anyone randomly. How long could you live if you weren't the tank? That is exactly the case here.

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