Monster melee attack range

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04/12/2012 07:44 AMPosted by PieFlavor
or make mobs cancel their attack animation if you move away from their melee range... in Dota there is animation cancelling and is often used to get closer to an enemy when chasing.

Then you'll just have players exploiting the game by continuously triggering the cancel animation, which is exactly the opposite of what Blizzard wants. It's really quite simple: if you're in melee range then you will get hit. The only problem I see is that as currently implemented, it looks like a bug to the uninitiated. All Blizzard needs to do is increase the attack animation speed and problem solved.
I personally agree with you, but i wanna elaborate on the last part about "dumbing down the game". This is not dumbing down the game. it's one thing to make the game more simple for casual players to understand, but this is something completely different. This is effectively preventing me to play at my full potential, prevents me from making the best out of a situation, because i can't shoot in the direction i want.
But since Grandma saw me being better than her, she felt sand and almost committed a suicide, so they had to make the game render me unable to play at my best. Now it's all fun and games for Grandma, she is all happy and excited for release.


This is true... lol, grandma is stoked and is already investing her coins into RMAH... but on a serious note to the OP... dude ur running into melee range... and the mobs attack attack animation takes a little while to go off and ur running a bit away before it completes... if your a warrior u should be fighting in melee range and have added defence and armor to help you survive inferno... and if u played a mage, you should hopefully be able to kite well enough not to get into melee range in the first place... the hardcore players adjust to game mechanics whatever they are... the bad ones complain why they are dieing and dont addapt... you really think they would make it so if u ran out of range the auto attack would cancel... how hard would inferno be... let monster into attack range attack it with a fast ability and run away.... cancel mob auto attack... rinse and repeat... scrub
As I've said in earlier posts, I believe they've made a bad decision with this system, and it will expose other weaknesses as a natural outworking of the flaws - which is what always happens with bad decisions. However, it can be tuned down. I really believe they will see it's not solving the issue they are trying to solve in an acceptable way, and they will find a balance of other things (animation system tweaks, perhaps even animation cancelling in concert with a toning down of the hitbox issue) that will provide a much better answer.

That is my hope anyway. Even the new Blizzard's focus seems to be gameplay over other things, so that hope is justified.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.

Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. :) It's not something we'll be changing.
This is probably the stupidest response I have ever read .... essentially "We wouldn't want our game to make sense" or "we wouldn't want an actual correlation between the visual game experience and the mechanics"

Pathetic. If you don't want people being able to run through groups of monsters, make the monsters faster, or add more ranged, or add more monsters, but making huge hit boxes and ranges that have no correlation to the visual reach of the monster is just idiocy.


It makes sense you are just ignorant of it. And there is a correlation based on the game mechanics that you are refusing to accept.

You run into melee range. To prevent everyone from juking out of damage, you will take damage regardless as is fair and creates a more challenging game than attacking, escaping the animation of an auto attack, and doing it all over again. There is a game like that. It's called dark souls. Play that instead of qq'ing.

It has been stated numerous times by the people who understand why this is in place and a blue. At the very least, take blizzard's word for it because I know I am no game designer (despite knowing more about it than some scrubs) and blizzard is hardly one to disappoint their fans. This is a balance mechanic. Deal with it.
As I've said in earlier posts, I believe they've made a bad decision with this system, and it will expose other weaknesses as a natural outworking of the flaws - which is what always happens with bad decisions. However, it can be tuned down. I really believe they will see it's not solving the issue they are trying to solve in an acceptable way, and they will find a balance of other things (animation system tweaks, perhaps even animation cancelling in concert with a toning down of the hitbox issue) that will provide a much better answer.

That is my hope anyway. Even the new Blizzard's focus seems to be gameplay over other things, so that hope is justified.


Is it so hard to believe gameplay is first and foremost here? It is a logical system to prevent mobs from being kited too hard, taking away any sort of challenge from the game. Please explain how it is a bad decision to do things this way because I am dying to hear it. I have been with this thread from the start and I have heard every argument from this is a dumbed down mechanic to it makes melee OP and neither case is true at all.
This mechanic is a direct consequence of allowing the player character to run - infinitely. It's the only way to balance combat so the monsters stand a chance. Is it easier to hit someone facing you, prepared to doge with a shield, or someone who has just turned to run away? Is it realistic to be able to run continuously like you can in D3 and WoW? No. But it serves a purpose. It speeds up the pace of combat and reduces downtime.

D1's combat looked better because you couldn't actually run while in a dungeon. It was really hard to dodge anything but the slowest of attacks because you couldn't move to an adjacent tile quickly enough. It was realistic. It was also much slower paced (no pun intended) and tactical.

'Fair' ways to handle this would be to have the player speed drop to a walk as soon as you engage a pack of monsters/enter melee range, or make running cost resources (D2's failed stamina system and armor = 0, block = 1/3 value when you run). But, this kind of gameply is uneven and would be jarring, with your movement speed varying considerably, with sprinting and walking intermixed. The compromise in D3, where armor and block work differently, is to simply allow certain types of attacks to hit as they do from across the screen, unless the player takes some action during the swing timer other than simply moving. This effectively drops a player's speed to walking when they contact in melee.

You can still dodge certain attacks. But other attacks from grunts cannot be dodged, and this is because of the ability to move quickly always, with no downsides. At high levels, you could stack run speed on one character, who runs in circles around a group of monsters, while the other 3 nuke from range, without a single character taking damage.
It makes sense you are just ignorant of it. And there is a correlation based on the game mechanics that you are refusing to accept.

You run into melee range. To prevent everyone from juking out of damage, you will take damage regardless as is fair and creates a more challenging game than attacking, escaping the animation of an auto attack, and doing it all over again. There is a game like that. It's called dark souls. Play that instead of qq'ing.

It has been stated numerous times by the people who understand why this is in place and a blue. At the very least, take blizzard's word for it because I know I am no game designer (despite knowing more about it than some scrubs) and blizzard is hardly one to disappoint their fans. This is a balance mechanic. Deal with it.


Stating and restating your position isn't helping anyone. The people who disagree with this DO understand it. They disagree with it. That's what disagreement is. I think it's the wrong solution as well, but I hope that will become clear over the course of release, and they will tune it/alter it. Throwing insults at people because they don't agree with your position is childish, and doesn't help your position. Come on guys, enough ad hominems. These forums have to grow up at some point.
It makes sense you are just ignorant of it. And there is a correlation based on the game mechanics that you are refusing to accept.

You run into melee range. To prevent everyone from juking out of damage, you will take damage regardless as is fair and creates a more challenging game than attacking, escaping the animation of an auto attack, and doing it all over again. There is a game like that. It's called dark souls. Play that instead of qq'ing.

It has been stated numerous times by the people who understand why this is in place and a blue. At the very least, take blizzard's word for it because I know I am no game designer (despite knowing more about it than some scrubs) and blizzard is hardly one to disappoint their fans. This is a balance mechanic. Deal with it.


Stating and restating your position isn't helping anyone. The people who disagree with this DO understand it. They disagree with it. That's what disagreement is. I think it's the wrong solution as well, but I hope that will become clear over the course of release, and they will tune it/alter it. Throwing insults at people because they don't agree with your position is childish, and doesn't help your position. Come on guys, enough ad hominems. These forums have to grow up at some point.


No, I am providing reasons why the mechanic is in place (like Bashiok already has) and yet the endless stream of QQ still rages on. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity. I believe the community is simply not used to a mechanic like this and are trying to make it seem like a greater issue than it is.
04/12/2012 08:38 AMPosted by D3BETA
No, I am providing reasons why the mechanic is in place (like Bashiok already has) and yet the endless stream of QQ still rages on. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity. I believe the community is simply not used to a mechanic like this and are trying to make it seem like a greater issue than it is.


There are many posts explaining this in detail. The break in visual continuity is enough on its own in an action game. That's what action is - visual continuity, accurate hit detection, animation synced with combat resolution (in many cases creating the combat resolution).

I think what you mean is you don't agree... that's fine, but many of us are explaining why we believe this is a bad solution. It's not petulance, it's pragmatism. It breaks the visual contract of action play. I have some experience with these systems in other games as a designer, and this was not the only way to go.
I think in order to address/fix this issue, they'd have to address the hit box/mesh issue. I, for one, already find it difficult to kite due to this. I'm sure we'd eventually get used to what we find as flaws, but I don't think we should have to.
Well I wish they would at least consider toning it down a little, so it's not so frustratingly obvious. Honestly to most game enthusiasts this looks sloppy and broken.

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