You, Me, And The Revised Endless Dungeon.

General Discussion
I would like to take a moment to appreciate all of the feedback I gathered on my previous threads mainly, I have combined all feedback from that thread, and from threads I had made before, just threads I didn't put as much thought into.

To start out I would like to say please read my idea thoroughly, there is certainly some negative feedback that the idea of an Endless Dungeon receives, much of it being something I would like to address within this post. That being said, this post is going to be quite a read, and does not have a TL;DR.

Any comments/suggestions are welcome, positive and negative. Please try remaining constructive whether you like or dislike my post on this, as I would really like to try to root out any problems, and also would enjoy seeing the more popular elements of my desired Endless Dungeon. Posts like " Horrible idea " or " +1 " Do not help nearly as much as explaining the full reason why you have said reaction to the idea.

Two separate Dungeons
The first dungeon would be a much smaller than the full version, and would not require near as much time investment. It would be a survival mode arena area in which you would test your skills in as elite packs continuously spawn, giving no heed to the condition you are in as they spawn and attack you unrelentingly. This dungeon could also feature a mini boss every so often, to keep things interesting. The people that can survive the longest would be honored on a leaderboard, with achievements being tied to survival time as well.
- It would be noted that drops may have to be staggered throughout the course of this event based on time spent inside, due to the fact that it could not follow the current NV looting, too many rares would come up in too little time.
-I would imagine you could choose some basic aspects of the dungeon such as what act you would like the terrain to come from

The second dungeon would be immense, some could even call this endless. This dungeon would descend lower and lower, while enemies become tougher and tougher. This version of the dungeon would feature variety of things to keep it interesting, including, but not limited to: Surroundings, terrain being themed - based on an upcoming mini-boss. Imagine exploring 5-10 floors of lush, oasis-like landscape ridden with waterfalls and then finding yourself running into a unique monster in which is a slightly larger challenge, including fitting abilities based on the theme ( water in this case ). Events - Events in Diablo 3 are fun to run into and I would like this dungeon to include plenty of randomized events. Achievements - for those that like to earn achievements I would love this dungeon to involve plenty, including achievements based on speed, depth, and event-based achievements.
- I believe these mini bosses, and all "purple named" monsters in the game should be tougher, but also be a lot more rewarding than they are now.
- This dungeon is something I think should be saved like quests, where you could start out where you want, with the furthest depth being your latest option.

True difficulty, not artificial
To ensure that this Endless Dungeon would appeal to a wider crowd, the amount of gear that would be needed in comparison to skill would have to be much less than the current game model. As of now we have the " doubled it " concept tearing a lot of people apart unless they stack very specific stats, I would like this dungeon itself, and the game to take a different route on this. I would like elites within to have abilities that you can make plans for, abilities that need quick reaction timing.
While I would not prefer Diablo takes even more from WoW, I do like how raid bosses are scripted. They have abilities that require speedy reaction time and planning, not just spam-able abilities that might one shot your character. ( This is obviously skewed a little due to the presence of healers, but the design and concept still stands. )

This dungeon is directly tied to the ladder.
As many people are looking for a competitive element, a fresh economy, and an endgame worth taking part of, I would like both versions of the dungeon to be directly tied to the ladders' leader-board. The survival mode would be " Elites Killed " and "Time Survived " while the endless dungeon version would be more based around depth, but also include the other factors being the time it took, and elites killed. ( It's not as if you could never skip an elite pack, you could just never skip a mini-boss )
This would implement the ladder that Diablo 3 currently lacks, and give a reason for said ladder. I find "Elite kills " to be bland, and refreshing the economy not quite enough incentive.
- One person, Ammostiel, gave incite on how scoring could work within the dungeons -
Depth / Elite packs killed / Total Enemies killed / Time Elapsed / Score [enemies killed per hour + 1000 per level reached]
I personally think the score would be what the leaderboard would be based on

Loot would be more promising.

I believe that within the dungeons, another factor other than NV and Magic Find should be tied to what loot is bound to drop. I believe the lower you go, or the longer you last in survival, the more of a chance you should have to find loot I would like to name Shimmering Rare ( taken from a post I cannot recall )
Shimmering Rare- This gear would have the same stat caps, and ilvl cap as any other rares currently have. The difference I would like to be changed on this quality of loot would simply be the RNG of the loot. In example, if currently a pair of gloves can have 20-200 vitality, a shimmering rare would have 80-200 vitality. This would simply give a shimmering rare a much higher chance of being worth while.
- I realize gear as of now needs to be changed, many people are tired of barbarian belts having int as the highest stat, and a bonus to some random monk ability. I would like to discuss this, but not within this post, so please respond to this idea only involving the implementation of such a loot quality within the dungeon, not the details that many dislike outside of this idea.

A lot of people have commented that they do not want to be forced into this Endless Dungeon in order to get the best gear. My response is that I do not want to be forced to do linear quest-lines in story mode for gear currently, and this idea coming about had a lot to do with that fact. I empathize with your concern though, and have come up with two responses to such
1. The Endless Dungeon itself, or the "Shimmering Rare " quality loot within could be ladder content only. You would not be forced to create a character on the ladder, and therefore would not be effected by this implementation.
2. The idea that I've come up with that's bound to be more popular would be that the Endless Dungeon style of playing would be a different mode altogether. Much like you can currently choose your character to play in hardcore, you could also set your character to play under the condition of having an Endless Dungeon mode present, anyone who would not like this style of gameplay could play without it.

With those being the basics of the Endless Dungeon, I would also like to recreate my FAQ/Comments section, as a lot of people are bound to respond negatively in the same fashion.

Q: Why would Blizzard be willing to do this?

A: I believe this would give the game a large enough of an element, and enough replay value to be more than worth implementing. It would create an element for those who believe something is lacking, and also could possibly bring in even more players, as this is a popular and well-liked concept. Also, this would further the use of the Real Money Auction House, as players would strive to be further up the ladder due to the competitive nature, with gear being an aid to do so.

Q: How would this be fair if people willing to spend money are bound to be at top?

A: Firstly, what part of this game do you not have an advantage in if you spend thousands on the RMAH? ... But as I stated in the description of this idea, gear would certainly be an aid as monsters would have a small damage/health each level, but on the other hand, ensuring mechanics are the main focus of this dungeon, it would not give someone an extremely unbalanced advantage. That person would also have to be skilled and be able to adapt/react to the unique mechanics that could be hoped this dungeon would have. ( Ever seen the video of Yogg Saron 0 lights being done at level with all rare gear? (blue) ...reaction and coordination have to be combined amazingly to do down him with that low of gear, but can be done that way if the people are skilled )

Q: If the ladder season resets every six months or so, why would I think this to be worth it?

A: The ladder season is not for everyone, and is not something you'd be forced to take part in. Non-ladder characters should always be able to made, as some people don't care to restart every six months. For some it is something they might participate in only every few ladders, or possibly only the first ladder. The ladder is based on competition, fresh economy, starting new, and having a goal each time it is reset. The ladder could work like Diablo 2, having your characters turned into non-ladder after reset. Players would of course have all of the gear and achievements earned in ladder remain on their character(s).

Q: How is it fair that I am being forced to play the endless dungeon to acquire the best gear?
I have answered this question within my post. Read the segment after the bold typed title "Optional"

Comment: This is not the style of Diablo, and is a rip off from other games.

Response: Diablo 1 actually implemented an idea like this, which several posts on the matter reveal this idea has an ancestor in common, a text-based game called "Rogue" A lot of modern dungeon crawling games fit into the category "Rogue-like" That being said, the Diablo series is already a dungeon crawler, and taking in the fact that Diablo 1 implemented an idea even more similar, I would not say this is a rip off at all.

There will be many people commenting on how Torchlight is the original Diablo team, and how the endless dungeon is simply copying their idea. First off, it is not the entire original Diablo team, it does however have a few of them. I've read up on their response to being called the original Diablo team, and they like to believe they have changed since that time, and would like the Torchlight and Diablo series to be seen as unique titles that are bound have their share of players which prefer the one.

That being said, let this idea be unique and catered to Diablo 3. Get it out of your minds that this is a direct copy of Torchlight, as I would not like it to be the same thing. The idea comes from such a long time ago and comparing only to modern games is simply ignorance.

Edit- One thing I would like to mention, and although it's not stated in my current version of how I'd implement this dungeon, I'd like to get more feedback about it. One player mentioned a process of loot upgrading that occurs in a game called Disgaea. The basic concept is that depending on the quality of gear, the gear would upgrade based on how many levels you went down the dungeon. The fix to this being botted would be have this gear be account bound. It just sounded interesting to me, leveling your gear as you progress your character.
I have an issue with your "True Difficulty" section. Particularly the last bit about unique boss mechanics. That's something that takes development time and resources, which is not only finite but compared to the time and resources that will be thrown at it by the player base it's down right paltry. If you want to make an infinite dungeon you can't have it banking on finite resources. Anything that can't be RNGed up out of thin air doesn't fit with the idea. If you're just talking about mobs with new affixes that can only be on boss types then that might work but if you're talking about scripted WoW type boss encounters then that's really not sustainable.

Other than that I like most of the idea.
07/05/2012 08:41 PMPosted by ManWithBrisk
If you're just talking about mobs with new affixes that can only be on boss types then that might work but if you're talking about scripted WoW type boss encounters then that's really not sustainable.

I suppose this would be the first thing to implement. The entire game needs a change as far as monster " difficulty " goes.
Both of your ideas are good so I'll like this post. However, the second isn't really practical and it's so complex that you're basically asking for an entirely new D3. You're never going to get that.

I would love to see an endless dungeon though. I'd want the maps you could generate to be completely customizable. You'd get a list of all the random gen maps and you could check/uncheck the ones you wanted or didnt want with limitations of course. In the same way, you could choose which bosses that you'd randomly encounter between maps at random intervals. Then I'd like to see it customizable in difficulty - for instance you could set all maps to spawn on Hell Act I difficulty, or Inferno Act IV and All mobs and elites would be that difficulty and have that loot drop tables.

I'd want it specifically this way so that you could see more act I and II maps and mobs at act III/IV level difficulty and drop rate. It would severely break the grind of the same map and boss run over and over and over again.
07/05/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Nova
Both of your ideas are good so I'll like this post. However, the second isn't really practical and it's so complex that you're basically asking for an entirely new D3. You're never going to get that.

Yeah it's an idea for the future, not patch 1.04. It's such a big idea though, I think it would be a good move for them, and enjoyable for players alike.
Loved the ideas from your original post, and am still supporting them in this one. :)
Thank you for the new thread.

I think the easiest way to introduce the concept would be to have a limited form of it with very simple construction and rules.

Simple tilesets using assets from the A1 crypts and A3 keeps, random maps, linear difficulty progression, everything starts over if you leave or die, no loot adjustments.

No new graphic content to create, no tinkering with loot rates, hell - don't even bother trying to maintain a leaderboard if that takes too much work. Those of us who like this concept can keep one ourselves.

All of the work to do this is done except the actual ED mechanic itself.

Refinements and improvements to ED, such as those outlined here and the other thread, can be introduced as time allows and to reflect player reception. But it needs to exist in some way first.
07/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Ammostiel
Refinements and improvements to ED, such as those outlined here and the other thread, can be introduced as time allows and to reflect player reception. But it needs to exist in some way first.

I suppose you are right in saying this, I guess this is the FULL concept when even as basic implementation would be amazing.
I love this idea, but with the caveat that an absolutely necessary feature of any endless dungeon is a format which easily and randomly generated by the game, and slowly gets harder in small increments. The best way to accomplish this would be to increase monster dmg and health by 2-5% for every level cleared, with the incentive of a 2-5% bonus to MF.

This would be wonderfully competitive, and would give essentially an endless wall of enemies to beat on with increasingly great gear. You could have environments already in use (for speed's sake, b/c designing brand new maps and content would push this to the D3 expansion, in all honesty, and the game needs this ASAP).

Just change the general theme every 5-levels or so. This would also free the game to speed up gear acquisition rates through farming, as devs wouldnt have to be worried about finishing inferno content too quickly, which in turn would de-emphasize the AH, something I think the community would appreciate.

The main thing is speed. As it stands, this won't even get worked on until after the pvp patch, and should be emphasized to be fairly simple and basic until a more robust system can be put in place. This would also allow for great testing by the community with feedback to help grow the final version into something truly fantastic, say for the expansion.
07/06/2012 10:29 PMPosted by Slavetoguilt

Thanks for keeping the thread alive!
Draw some pictures! worth thousands of words
i think an endless dungeon would bring alot of the players back
07/05/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Ishamael

Lots more randomized
07/07/2012 12:16 AMPosted by Zard
i think an endless dungeon would bring alot of the players back

I think the same. I only wish Blizzard would consider.
Bumping this up so more people can read the idea.

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