WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

Barbarian
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lol don´t take my (above) average barb as an example, I don´t have the resources to equip how I´d like to, at least half of my stuff is self-found...plus right now I have Cain´s set equipped with 2 weapons I only bought to solely run keep depths 2 for the exp at mp1-2 (uberjager´s idea)

But enough of that, my current profile is not the usual setup I use to farm mp7 with (23 ticks on both weapons, a bit over 1.1m dps with WW/RLTW and Rend or Overpower against mp7 azmo) and run ubers at mp10 with Twister´s friends...note that if you click on "view profile" and it says doesn´t exist, just change the "us" part to "eu" in the address and you get my eu profile

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Nubtro-2147/hero/840269

EDIT: oh, new page, the first post has been updated - the charts now include skill dps for each breakpoint as a quick reference if you wanted to compare it to other skills

for example rend lacerate does 180.6% MH dps no matter what your aps is, which means it´s around the same dps against one target as one tornado does if you have the following aps:
2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 fpt - 8.57 tps - 171.43% dps - 26 ticks - 520% dmg
Now is there any benefit to only 1 weapon hitting the next breakpoint? If so what is it.
well achieving a breakpoint with the least amount of ASI gives you a damage benefit (not to mention fury generation benefit and loh/ls benefit from more ticks)

example you have and echoing fury with +0.23 so 1.43 aps and get 35% ASI on gear, which allows you to achieve the following breakpoint if WotB is up while dual-wielding
2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 fpt - 8.57 tps - 171.43% dps - 26 ticks - 520% dmg
and compare it to
2.22223-2.50000 aps - 8 fpt - 7.50 tps - 150.00% dps - 23 ticks - 460% dmg

14.28% more damage by achieving that breakpoint, it´s about optimizing gear choices, if you know that you need a certain sum of ASI on the gear to achieve a breakpoint you want to achieve, it´s possible to specifically equip certain items and afterwards focus on other stats beside attack speed...also it could be cheaper if you don´t need 9 but maybe 7% ASI on a ring for a breakpoint.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding or you misunderstood me but I'm talking about if only 1 of the 2 weapons hits the breakpoint do you gain anything? Would it be half the benefit of the breakpoint? Like for instance if the breakpoint offered 4 more ticks you would get 2 if only 1 weapon passed?
12/09/2012 02:37 PMPosted by MASKOAA
Maybe I'm misunderstanding or you misunderstood me but I'm talking about if only 1 of the 2 weapons hits the breakpoint do you gain anything? Would it be half the benefit of the breakpoint? Like for instance if the breakpoint offered 4 more ticks you would get 2 if only 1 weapon passed?

Umm hope you´re not trolling MASKOAA but each weapon aps is separate when it comes to WW/RLTW, so the weapon that achieves the breakpoint would gain all the ticks not just half of them.


Thanks for this. So if I activate RLTW just after using the OH attack, I would be ticking for the next 3 seconds using WW. Assuming we refresh RLTW during the WW animation (common for barbs to do this), it would still maintain at the OH speed?

OP: KS does not change which weapon is being swung from what I can tell. Certain skills like Ground Stomp would always default back to MH APS which is crucial for me given that it is my faster weapon with EF as my OH (3.35 APS with WoTB).


From the info we have, theoretically speaking, it should stick with OH speed in your example but I can´t tell you if this is 100% correct unless I test it and it would be a really difficult test as I need to actually hit a monster with RLTW. We know how the game decides tick frequency in a solo RLTW situation and a solo WW situation, but using both at the same time at different activation times is a different story.

What I´ve tested so far:

1. Overpower doesn´t change tick frequency during WW channeling
2. Rend always swings with MH and you stop channeling WW so when you continue with WW after Rend it will always be at OH frequency (weapon about to swing)

I´ll try WW/RLTW at the same time now and update this post later...

Umm hope you´re not trolling MASKOAA but each weapon aps is separate when it comes to WW/RLTW, so the weapon that achieves the breakpoint would gain all the ticks not just half of them.


Not trolling. So does that mean when I hit one of these breakpoints with both weapons I get double those ticks then? Or does that mean I only have to hit the breakpoint with 1 weapon and hitting it with both does not matter?

2.22223-2.50000 aps - 8 fpt - 7.50 tps - 150.00% dps - 23 ticks - 460% dmg
2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 fpt - 8.57 tps - 171.43% dps - 26 ticks - 520% dmg
2.85715-3.33333 aps - 6 fpt - 10.0 tps - 200.00% dps - 30 ticks - 600% dmg

For instance if I hit 26 ticks with both weapons does that mean I'm actually getting 52ticks since you said they are seperate or does that mean you only need to hit it with 1 weapon like the offhand and it won't matter if your slower main hand hits the tick or not?
Come on, have you actually read the whole first post? Only one weapon is always used to determine the damage and tick frequency and fury cost...please reread it

if you hit 26 ticks with both weapons it means no matter what weapon you swing with before using WW/RLTW, you´ll always get 26 ticks...if one weapon is in the 23 tick range and the other in the 26 tick range, the WW/RLTW will depend on which weapon you swing before using the skills...

RLTW

4. When dual-wielding, tornado tick frequency depends on the attacks per second (aps) of the last weapon swung before using Sprint.

WW
5. When dual-wielding:a) WW alternates between weapons to deal damage beginning with the weapon you are about to swing before using WWb) WW tick frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing not the weapon you swung before using WW (exact opposite of Sprint)c) WW fury cost per tick (for the whole duration of WW until you stop spinning) depends on the weapon you are about to swing before using WW. It does not alternate between the weapons and their individual WW fury cost.

You may have noticed that the tick frequency source when dual wielding is different for Sprint and WW. Sprint frequency depends on the weapon you swung last before sprinting while WW frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing (not the weapon you swung last before WW). If you click both skills at the same time and if the MH/OH tick frequencies are different, Sprint and WW should tick at different frequencies.

...
DAKKON I tried to test simultaneous WW and Sprint, they do indeed tick at the opposite tick frequencies just as I predicted, but it´s pretty much impossible to test channeling WW and clicking Sprint again and again because if I spawn more than one tornado I get too many damage ticks and I´m unable to determine which one belongs to which tornado...

EDIT: the game´s crazy and almost confused me...

I cleave and see a swing with the MH (right hand swing - forehand), but it actually does OH damage and get a corresponding inventory details aps tick change to OH aps.

Maybe I could rephrase "about to swing with" for WW to "first WW weapon tick swing" determines the tick frequency of WW. They´re the same, basically.

It´s really weird but for some reason WW does a MH damage tick but you get a corresponding inventory detail aps tick to OH aps ._.
Sorry for being a pain but on the plus side now that I'm really understanding it I can explain it to others that reply and take some of the burden off you lol.
No problem.

OK I´ll have to rewrite the determining factor when it comes to tick frequency. I managed to test Sprint frequency while WW was channeled:

1. MH swing -> WW channeling began:
a ) MH WW swing -> OH displayed aps RLTW began -> RLTW has OH frequency
b ) OH WW swing -> MH displayed aps RLTW began -> RLTW has MH frequency

2. OH swing -> WW channeling began
a ) MH WW swing -> OH displayed aps RLTW began -> RLTW has OH frequency
b ) OH WW swing -> MH displayed aps RLTW began -> RLTW has MH frequency

To me it seems that the determining factor for RLTW is the displayed aps value (inventory details) when you activate the skill. Note that the game actually uses the calculated correct aps with all the decimals and not just the displayed 2 decimal one.

For the usual swinging skills like Bash, Frenzy, Cleave, Stomp, Rend, the displayed aps is the weapon you just swung (damaged) with. So each time you damage with those skills, you get a corresponding displayed aps (inventory details) tick - it changes to the aps of the weapon you just swung with. The same mechanics as I described in the first post.

For WW on the other hand, while channeling, a damage tick (swing) with a weapon also gives us a corresponding displayed aps tick - but it changes to the other weapon´s aps not the one you just damaged with.

WW itself doesn´t change tick frequency while you channel it and it´s determined by the aps of the weapon you´re about to swing with - which is the first WW tick.
Guess I lucked out b/c of how close my APS is on both weapons, doesn't matter which one I swing with first.

Out of WOTB both weapons are doing 26ticks in WOTB both are doing 30ticks so I don't have to even think about which one to swing before WWing into mobs.
Yeah big reason I mace mainhand with echo offhand...same aps, and mace has the best average damage of all 1 handers, win win imo.
12/10/2012 05:35 AMPosted by Nubtro
DAKKON I tried to test simultaneous WW and Sprint, they do indeed tick at the opposite tick frequencies just as I predicted, but it´s pretty much impossible to test channeling WW and clicking Sprint again and again because if I spawn more than one tornado I get too many damage ticks and I´m unable to determine which one belongs to which tornado...


Thanks as always. This thread is a real gem (and it's highly rated now!) and really benefits new and old barbs alike.

12/10/2012 07:29 AMPosted by Nubtro
To me it seems that the determining factor for RLTW is the displayed aps value (inventory details) when you activate the skill. Note that the game actually uses the calculated correct aps with all the decimals and not just the displayed 2 decimal one.


This is actually very helpful. On screen APS is actually a good way to tell what level of ticks it should be. For me, MH @3.35 is the faster weapon due to EF on the OH. Certain abilities like Ground Stomp would always revert back to the MH APS weapon which is the faster of the two. It does seem to tick noticeably faster although I have never captured it on 60 frames before.
So in order to clarify this, using whirlwind does not change your tornado ticks? It stays the same depending on which weapon swung before starting to whirl?
12/10/2012 07:29 AMPosted by Nubtro
To me it seems that the determining factor for RLTW is the displayed aps value (inventory details) when you activate the skill. Note that the game actually uses the calculated correct aps with all the decimals and not just the displayed 2 decimal one.


Thanks for this. I was about to ask if the number displayed in inventory details is the number I should be cross-referencing with your RLTW ticks table. :-)

This way, I need not do any math. lol
Amazing.. thanks mate
12/12/2012 10:56 PMPosted by MasterPUA
To me it seems that the determining factor for RLTW is the displayed aps value (inventory details) when you activate the skill. Note that the game actually uses the calculated correct aps with all the decimals and not just the displayed 2 decimal one.


Thanks for this. I was about to ask if the number displayed in inventory details is the number I should be cross-referencing with your RLTW ticks table. :-)

This way, I need not do any math. lol


Well, the displayed aps is rounded but the game actually uses all the decimals (at least 4) for all calculations so if you´re close to the breakpoint, my advice is to calc the accurate aps value to be sure you have the ticks.
Great job! @Nubtro
Maybe I missed it but how are there breakpoints for WW? I understand it for Twiters/RLTW b/c they are only up for a limited time but from one WW to the next isnt it just continued?

For instance if you and another guy are in the same breakpoint but he's a hair under the next and your just a hair over your current wouldn't his WW overtime hit more times the longer he holds it down?
According to the D3Rawr calculator adding 1ais which I did tonight should put my main hand at 2.5025 if I use a 1.43 mh but it shows up 2.50 in game...is the calculator accurate or do I need 1 more ias on top for 1.43 mainhands.
12/14/2012 08:26 PMPosted by MASKOAA
According to the D3Rawr calculator adding 1ais which I did tonight should put my main hand at 2.5025 if I use a 1.43 mh but it shows up 2.50 in game...is the calculator accurate or do I need 1 more ias on top for 1.43 mainhands.



Well, the displayed aps is rounded but the game actually uses all the decimals (at least 4) for all calculations so if you´re close to the breakpoint, my advice is to calc the accurate aps value to be sure you have the ticks.


Btw. your MH weapon aps in your profile is 1.3 * 1.11 = 1.443 not 1.43, but if it was 1.3*1.10 = 1.43 aps, 75% ias brings you to 2.5025 which means 26 tick breakpoint...but that´s without WotB up, you´re at 30 ticks with both weapon with WotB up.

Maybe I missed it but how are there breakpoints for WW? I understand it for Twiters/RLTW b/c they are only up for a limited time but from one WW to the next isnt it just continued?

For instance if you and another guy are in the same breakpoint but he's a hair under the next and your just a hair over your current wouldn't his WW overtime hit more times the longer he holds it down?


lol? Reread the first post, over and over....breakpoints means achieving a lower frame length per tick....for example instead of 9 frames you achieve 8 frames, which means your WW ticks faster (game runs at 60 frames per second).

WW lasts as long as you hold it down and while you channel it, each two ticks are separated by the same frame length - according to the breakpoint table.

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