I still think Zoltun Kulle was good.

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Really, ZK was the hero from the Sin Wars series, except he lost.

The goal of the angels was to destroy humanity, because it is an abomination.

The goal of the demons was to enslave humanity for use as a weapon against the angels.

IMHO, ZK was right on about ditching the angels, becoming all-powerful, thus declaring to demons and angels alike that we are not tools.
I think the biggest problem with that part of the story is just how quickly a decision is made to kill him. There's no discussion, just simply "give us what we want right now or we kill you", which I'd say makes the player character in the wrong.

Basically, why our characters suddenly decide they need to kill Zoltun Kulle isn't sufficiently justified, which disrupts the player's experience. And it's assumed by all involved that since we walk into Kulle's room, we're there to kill him, not accept his offer, or even try to negotiate. It's just too abrupt.
08/29/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Robzy
ZK like most other aspects of the story, went a direction that it had to go, not for good story telling, but for the typical Hollywood "YAY THE GOOD GUY WON" feeling that appeals to the masses, who take everything at face value, people who don't post on forums like these.

I dont know about you, but I felt that kulle's knee jerk reaction may have been overboard just like the nephalem's reaction. Once you reach the end of act 3 everyone was probably thinking "maybe i should have sided with kulle".

There is a reason blizz has his "ghost" say what he says in act 4
I too drink from the Kulle-aid
Sure he might have been a power-hungry Horadrim renegade, but he did aim to save mankind from the consequences of meaningless, never ending battles of angels of demons and their plots against Nephalem.

Ensuring the safety and well being of one's race, now that's something I would hardly call evil.

agreed, bit like the ending to the watchmen
No no no, the only good character you killed in the game was the Chancellor.

"No, I cannot let you bring that monster, Leoric back to life."

Hahah! Ef' you Chancellor, now give me your TP powers!

Wait now that I think about it, WTF is up with the skeleton king? He was perfectly animated when he was sending his minions at Cain, then all of a sudden you have to bring him back to life? WTF??

He was in his ghost form back then, he didn't have a physical body.
i'll join him if i have the chance..
everytime he finished talking he laughed. i can get used to that
I think Kulle can be likened to someone like Kim Il Sung, who fought to overthrow a tyrannical regime that had colonized Korea; once his goal was realized, however, he then set about establishing his own tyrannical regime.
Sure he might have been a power-hungry Horadrim renegade, but he did aim to save mankind from the consequences of meaningless, never ending battles of angels of demons and their plots against Nephalem.

Ensuring the safety and well being of one's race, now that's something I would hardly call evil.

agreed, bit like the ending to the watchmen

Which version of the ending, the graphic novel or the video?
08/29/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Edd
Christ if Zoltun was a good guy then so was Ghengis Khan.

Wait, what? Ghengis Khan was a bad guy?
to this day i still want to be able to join him and wreck !@# together
I'm really irritated by how that part of A2 plays out as well, since it's not hard to figure out that ZK is right on pretty much all accounts. At the same time, though, I don't place much faith in his assurances that he only wants to free humanity from oppression; he states outright that he's going to be the guy in charge of doing so while never actually saying he's going to go through with the hinted-at part of the plan where everyone else gets elevated too, which makes his motives rather suspect in this regard. We really should have had the opportunity to join with him rather than kill him, since it was clear doing anything else was going to lead to disaster (and it did).

I'm also rather suspicious of Tyrael's motivations; it's pretty clear he doesn't want Kulle's help and is only accepting it out of dire necessity, which makes it look like he's trying to set himself up in the role of humanity's savior despite his insistence that that's our job. Which is at odds with his complete inaction from the time you bail him out in Act 1 until Rakkis Crossing in Act 3, and further inaction from the Demon Gate until The Heavens themselves are threatened in Act 4, which give the impression he's more concerned with the well-being of his own kind despite his protestations to the contrary.
08/29/2012 08:44 PMPosted by Griff
I actually like ZK's storyline, and his death is both stupid and meaningless. I mean, he only lives for what, like less than an hour after being resurrected? It's almost on the same level as how bad Cain's death is....

I was well under geared in Act II of Inferno. He lived a tad longer in my scenario. At one point he put down his weapons and clipped his nails while manically laughing. Go figure...

Eeww, in Inferno, I think I did have some trouble but killed him after a couple of tries. But still, I believe in Normal, you pretty much beat his rear.

As for others still confused whether ZK is good or bad, just read Book of Cain. I don't recommend buying it (or any future Bliz titles), so if you can get a copy from your local library, or online, then the book provides decent background story to accompany you in D3 game...
Every NPC is good compared to players. You see... We kept killing them for their money while they don't even carry valuable stuffs.
I think the hero in D3 is in some way a anti hero. He/She gets manipulated and makes bad choices during the 4 acts. I was also abit suprised the way we had to kill Kulle. I expected him to secretly work with diablo, and then betray us, when we reached the soulstone, but it didnt end like that. It was kinda us that betrayed him, and it just didnt really feel right considering he wasnt after mankind.

08/29/2012 02:59 PMPosted by GlockworK
I'm not an expert on DnD, but wouldn't he be Chaotic Good? My understanding of it is Lawful evil = Evil motives through lawful means. Chaotic Good = Good motives by any means necessary.

Never played DnD but using those words brings back memories of Neverwinter Nights.

Might go play that tonight actually.
For me its more Baldurs gate... man i loved the atmosphere and story in that game.

Ps: Im not sure if i can ever forgive blizzard for killing cain... what a mistake. :(
The worst thing they can do now is to bring him back in a evil form. It would feel so wrong to kill such a honorful man. I hope they will revive him in some way, in a future expansion. Either as an angel or a human.

I interpreted the "only one vote saved mankind" to mean the vote was like 24 in favor of extermination, 25 against.
This, it clearly says that Tyreal was the only one that voted for Mankind to be saved.
Yes that is also how i understood it. All the angels except Tyrael voted to destroy mankind, but thankfully Tyrael could veto the decision and therefore save mankind.
08/29/2012 09:56 PMPosted by Nyngarra
I think that he, like most characters, would believe that he was the hero of his own story. Whether others view his actions and motivations as good, evil, or somewhere in-between depends entirely on their perspective.

Much like Jay Wilson, I guess.


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