Dev Journal: Defensive Bonuses Discussion

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/sigh So many people are so bad at math.

At any rate, love the changes! I'm hoping this really frees up build options and gear options!
So, I sure hope you plan on changing other skills in 1.0.5... Just so you know, about 90% of the Witch Doctor skills are still complete garbage. :)
The player 8 option sounds good but it has a big flaw.

For a better geared melee characters like my monk and barb, inferno is already too easy
I droped def skills in 1.04 for my monk and use all crappy MF gears but still feels boring
I fell asleep from time to time farming A3 but can still keep alive.

For my DH, it's much fun to play because I can't stand still and just press a button once a minute.
But the problem is for DH, you have to kill mobs before discipline went out.
Especially for the super fast ones or horde elites that are impossible to kite

So the result is for player-8, income damage is same low as solo. It's still super boring using monk and barb. just take longer than solo to kill.
but it will be super hard for DH as you can't take down the monster quickly enough before you use up disciplines

The reason for me to play the game is not about diversity, it's about game play.
That means it needs me to keep doing actions to survive and win.
Not by changing builts because that built is too boring and too easy.

The solution is NOT to make damage lower so you don't need to use defensive skills
It's to make more skills slots, somewhat two "secondary skill slots" that can only put in
certain skills with NO rune effect. Skills like monks "Cyclone strikes" and barbs "Ancient Spears"
They are fun to use but people won't use them if you have only 8 skill slots unless they are so bored by all other optimal builts

The key to make fighting fun is to keep players busy. You can't design skills that only require you to press every 2 minutes and you can't just self-tune difficulty by simply raise mobs HP.

Another constructive suggestion is to make some non-physical damage to ignore resist and take percentage demage. Say the slow move arcane needle, my barb can stand on 2 of them with full gears. That's super boring, you can make those to knock out 1/5 of HP per hit
So it force players to move.
I am ok with the overall 25% or so nerf to incoming damage and the overall skill based mitigation nerf by about 15-25% to make things even. However, the nerf to Shadow Power - Gloom is HUGE. If I was being hit for 100,000 damage before Gloom:

1.0.4 - I take 35,000 damage
1.0.5 - I take 65,000 damage

Difference = 85% MORE damage. Where the wizard took only 21% more damage in your example, the DH takes 85% more with the proposed changes. I completely fail to see how this is not an overall nerf to the DH and not a nerf to Inferno.

First, Blizzard favored glass cannon builds when the game first came out (1.00-1.02). Then in 1.0.3 with increase in repair costs and attack speed nerf, the tank style DH came into existence. In 1.0.4 the tank style DH was destroyed by the hidden nerfs to proc coefficients in the key skills these DH used. Now in 1.0.4 the most popular is balanced DH, a hybrid of survival and DPS. With your proposed changes, the metagame is again being shifted towards glass cannon since DH will have no other major defensive skills aside from Smoke Screen (which was already nerfed once). So make up your mind, if you want build diversity, you need to just accept players will play the way they want and stop forcibly altering everything to be worse.

As a side note, Trail of Cinders, as broken as you claim it to be, still does not outperform Whirlwind/Sprint Barbarians in terms of overall efficiency. With this also becoming nerfed/"fixed" what will DH have left?


Humm I thought the incoming damage will be nerf? You will take 100000 dmg in 1.0.4 but 75000 dmg in 1.0.5 (just pulling a number) so the end result should be similar.
Asking for items to not be !@#$ all the time since release STILL WAITING!
why don't u just say " HAY WIZARD WE BLIZZARD DON'T LIKE YOUR CM BUILD SO BACK OFF " ?
it would be easier for u xD
09/14/2012 09:51 AMPosted by KillaKhan
The Beta Test goes on...


Tell me a software, or anything in the world that does not change.
OMG, my Win 7 has a bug that needs fixing with patch, it must be a Beta test.
OMG, my job changed after hire, what a lousy work place
OMG, my house needed a new table because the original one doesn't looks good, I must be Beta Testing my house.
Have to admit the DH changes listed in there seem pretty exciting. I especially enjoy the longer duration on Shadow Power, even though it comes with the nerfs in what the skill actually does.
I know this isn't the thread for it, but it was mentioned in this blog so I might as well post this here.

The players 8 command should increase something more than just difficulty. Drop rates and exp perhaps. It would make no sense to increase the difficulty just for the hell of it. At least give us a reason to.
Ugh people are so stupid. I don't even understand....

If all classes are nerfed, and enemies are nerfed, then the relative power stays the same.

If enemies are nerfed more than classes are nerfed, relative power shifts in favor of classes. People can now switch a defensive passive/skill for an offensive passive/skill and the only change they will see is bigger numbers on enemies. The incoming damage will be the same. It isn't hard to understand.

To the whiners, stop whining about things you don't understand.

Edit: Monster power does increase drop rates from what the blog said (it called them "rewards").
Good call dev team,
Diversity will work for me!
well in one or two games that are so close now.
Money talks: more nerf = more stuff u have to buy = more money for Blizz

GLHF
Man i am so really worried with them. They think Monks tank everything and they are really we beat everything down so easily.. I can assure them, that every monk in the game even the full geared ones use the defensive builds BECAUSE its difficult to survive! So Simple! Nerfing One With Everything will make this Class Dead! I was saying that Monks NEED to be Buffed.Look at the progress charts men.There is hardly one monk in top 20 in the world or so. And smt else i ve noticed while playing monk. There are a lot 1v1 skills (that target a single mob or player in the future) but only few skill that deal with more than one target. In that way, they almost make necessary to play some skills. they dont add more freedom of builds to monk game. The thing i like most is chaning builds, but sadly with a monk you have to go hardly defensive if you want to survive.
This game is getting better by the month, I"m glad i have waited it out.
I like the changes overall. But I sure hope that you pay attention to the fact that most Demon Hunters are absolutely atrociously fragile. Anyone would be completely insane for making a Hardcore DH the way the class is now.

And what I really want to hear is that you fix the class specific items so that they spawn with class specific stats at least a fraction of the time!!
You know what. I dont even care about the changes, quite frankly at this point Im just tired of being Jerked around. The game has been out for 4 months and youve radically changed the playstyle of a number of classes MULTIPLE TIMES. Its obnoxious, any time someone learns their class and specs for it you throw it out the window. Heres a thought. Sit on it. Make some long term adjustments, ACTUALLY BALANCE the !@#$ if youre going to and THEN release it. Not throw it all out and see if it sticks every few weeks.
Great changes!

I'm glad more options will open up to barbs other than the WW (aka breaking-my-wrist-doing-circles) build.
Why nerf WD? We are already considered the weakest class and now you're making us weaker? Also giving Demon Hunters summons? There's almost no incentive to be a WD at all.

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