Energy Twister Explanation Request

General Discussion
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Do you see AK47's being nerfed in CS1.6 when it's overutilized? They could buff the MP5 and create build diversity, but people never complained. Everyone was having fun.

So can you let us have fun? If there's any problem it's perma freeze, so fix freeze instead

Make that COD so that they can relate
the dimishing returns of CC effects already nerfs the ability to perma freeze anything - and it has a side effect of greatly increasing the gear requirements of having a usable CM spec.

no longer will a 59 wiz, hit 60, gear up with half a million gold and make it all the way to diablo basically zerging the whole game with no DPS.

now, if you cant DPS fast, then your dead.

with the nerfs to energy armor and reduced CC, that alone is enough to greatly change the landscape for how much gear is required to make a usable CM spec wiz.

isnt that alone enough?

why kill the spec by making ET completly unusable too?

thats nerfing every aspect of a CM wiz, and literally forcing them to play some other way.

how can you talk about build diversity, when your actively removing it, and forcing people to play 1 specific way?

In 1.0.4, we reduced Energy Twister's proc coefficients from 0.25 to 0.125, and applied that change to four of the five runes. Problem is, we intended that change to apply to all five runes including Storm Chaser, so we're correcting that mistake in 1.0.5 (it's going from 0.5 to 0.125 to match the others). It could probably be considered a bug fix at this point, but for the sake of clarity we're listing it as a normal change in the PTR patch notes. We might change that plan for the live notes, but it really depends on your feedback. :)

As for why we changed Energy Twister's proc coefficient at all, Wyatt summed that up nicely in his original class preview blog for 1.0.4:

Dear Lylirra,

May i humbly direct your attention to a thread i started a little while ago in an attempt to get some discussion going on the coefficient of Energy Twister:

The short version is that, as Wyatt Cheng acknowledged in the aforementioned class preview blog, Wicked Wind is significantly more reliable than the other runes of Energy Twister in terms of generating procs (which can be argued as the main reason for using the spell, but that's another story), and as such, should possibly have a lower coefficient to compensate - just as other spells with higher proc potential (eg. increased area effects) have reduced coefficients as well (Thrown Blade, for example).

Thanks for reading :)
Yet another thread proving the dev team is just biased toward non-barb classes. I guess they just cant understand anything other than "Barbarians are the BEST! Whirlwind is THE SKILL! We shld make it stay tat way!".

Trvial: I also noticed.. Funny how tornado-esque skills are the most powerful skills pre-1.0.4 (Sprint[RLTW], Whirlwind, Sweeping Wind [Cyclone], Energy Twister [Wicked Wind])
I feel very disappoint when I heard it nerf again and it really kick me out of the game if such change become true.

I like playing with wizard in most of different game and I really happy that D3 provide a creative build choices for player which make them can enjoy to kill monster like a tank.

Make the build diversify is not a reason to nerf the skill again and again, the problem is why most of the player choose this build? Then you should think of enhance some of the weaker skill and make more people use them instead of nerf the current skill. In my point of view, most of the skill damage of wizard is too low and cost too much now. in many of the game, wizard should have much powerful DPS, I think this Is also a reason of many player go for the build to using twister .
09/24/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Kunaak
the dimishing returns of CC effects already nerfs the ability to perma freeze anything - and it has a side effect of greatly increasing the gear requirements of having a usable CM spec.

Actually, the upcoming CC changes are in fact a huge buff for all CC, including ours. Right now, all monsters start at the maximum amount of CC resistance (65%). In the new patch, they will start with no CC resistance, and build up to the maximum amount (65%) as they are Crowd Controlled more over time. So your first frost nova will freeze for 3 seconds instead of 1.05 seconds - that's definitely a buff!
09/24/2012 09:18 PMPosted by IMvess
Trvial: I also noticed.. Funny how tornado-esque skills are the most powerful skills pre-1.0.4 (Sprint[RLTW], Whirlwind, Sweeping Wind [Cyclone], Energy Twister [Wicked Wind])

Well spotted. Also worth mentioning is the now defunct DH tank, the Anvil barb build, and the old LL/DS/CM wizard. In fact, almost every recognisably overpowered build so far in the game has been such through "exploiting" (making the best use of) high coefficients.

They are a very important part of both balance and build diversity.
Hi Lylirra,
Thanks for your explain with reduced Energy Twister's proc coefficients from 0.25 to 0.125 include 5 runes. But I'm not sure BLZ if or not consider all runes proc coefficients reduce to 0.125, maybe all of Wizard will used Wicked Wind runes as before, because it more stable. Or all of Wizard won't use Energy Twister, because this skill have none usefuless with very low proc coefficient and very low ATK. So consider this balance, I think won't reduce all runes proc cofficient to 0.125.
As a Chinese student I often visited local Chinese and Taiwanese D III game forum and is happy to transfer what they have presented.

Most would agree that a 0.5-0.125 is over-nerfed and many of them who purchased Zunimassa set now even tried their WD and found more fun. This led to a serious problem about how efficiently WIZARD, as a class, farm A3 (as a farming standard). People who do not like a 120 second CD prefer not to take Archon with them, and purchase expensive gears that offer Cri Hit Chance to farm with CM/SC. This is simply because other builds cannot offer the same efficiency. Think of Blizzard/Hydra build, it is ranged and safe, but it is TOO slow and requires gears that provides life regeneration. Archon might also encounter problem when facing Reflect Damage elites and its survivability remains a concern.

This led many of my fellow friends guess how Blizzard POSITION WIZARD. What BLIZZARD wants WIZARD to be? It is a melee or ranged class like SOC in D II? If it is latter, then how come the AOE skills like Blizzard make people farm unhappily and inefficiently? The problem is not only CM/SC, it is other skills are too weak. A probable buff in SB is coming, but it is a melee skill. Without Crystal Armor or Ice Nova Wizard cannot even survive in A3 and how could you imagine players use SB? (Blizzard sometimes froze, but it is unstable. Just like investing in stock market, risk-adverse investors hate volatility and instability, same here) How about Meteor, when you find you use a star pact and fall into an enemy's body, how frustrated you could possibly be? Back to ET, on top of its proc coefficient, how much damage do you expect it to cause to enemies? Without a reasonable proc, nobody's gonna use it anymore. So WHAT IS WIZARD, a class farms relatively inefficiently compared to BB and WD?

The whole problem is not about a 0.5-0.125 nerf, it is about how efficiently WIZARD could farm. Currently in 104 with SC, to some high/middle-end wizard players they could farm efficiently. But if nerfed they might no longer be able to. By nerfing in a EITHER-OR way, Blizzard is in fact ruining this build and not really promoting diversity. In the worst case, if nerf, that's fine, but please provide us with a build that helps us farm at least as efficiently as WD or BB (There is a reason why BB is the first to reach lv 100...)

At this stage of the game, my personal opinion is that re-consider the proc adjustment and buff other skills. Don't ruin the existing build, do what you did in Hydra.
Adding to what others said, nerfing all twister runes (SC in this case) to 0.125 is killing it. I know I won't be using it and will switch to something like meteor, which got buffed.

Blizzard, nerfing skills to oblivion and forcing people off to other skills is not build diversity. It's forced build migration. Floating twister runes having same proc as the stationary WW makes no sense. How about do some math of staying power and actual proc counts of floating vs stationary (ww) twisters on an average number of mobs, and balance proc rates accordingly? WW can stay at 0.125, but not other runes without killing them as completely inviable compared to other skills. Twisters never had good dps, so the only reason people use them is for the proc. Kill the procs and you kill it, especially when meteors can proc as well if not better.

The nerf should have applied to WW, to 0.125. I ask CMs to discuss with devs and revisit the proc rates on twisters, as having the same proc rate on MOVING twisters make 0 sense and completely kills the skill.
From the other thread:

Well, Lylirra's reply was that the 1.0.5 nerf on Storm Chaser is just a fix for missing it in 1.0.4. But the problem is that the skill was actually destroyed in 1.0.4! We just didn't complain because Storm Chaser still worked, and it was never clarified if it was left that way intentionally or by mistake. So this argument is effectively about the 1.0.4 nerf. And seeing as the main reason for the 1.0.4 nerf was to prevent the new legendary procs from being abused - the whole nerf was done for nothing. There are no new legendaries worth abusing this way. If there were - we could abuse them easily with Storm Chaser. But there are none.

0.5 on Storm Chaser was too high, no argument there. But 0.125 is way too low.
09/24/2012 06:31 PMPosted by Lylirra
Lylirra, may I draw your attention to this post in which I have tested Archon vs Wicked Wind CM in farming speed and efficiency and found wicked wind to be subpar even in gears build exclusively for energy twister?

I'll take a look. Thanks!

(Same goes for the rest of the feedback in this thread, too. I'm reading all of it and will make sure it gets where it needs to go.)

Hey Lylirra, can you help kiting wizards please? It seems like wizard has 2 end-game builds right now and they all revolve around the critical mass passive?

Noone wants to use kiting wizard because it is SO weak.

The CM builds all can make their damage output about 7 to 11 times their base unbuffed DPS, but kiting wizard is about 2-3 times??

Is it intended?
this change literally kills off my character
I will be away from the game because this change.
this change literally kills off my character
Seems like 0.5 to 0.125 is over nerfed, and such nerf makes nobody use wind. It should be calculated that nerfing to what coefficient will be reasonable, NOT just make it half or 1/4. Seems like BLZ just set a number by imagination.

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